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Last post 1 day ago by RobertHively. 89 replies replies.
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A Brief History of the Fed’s Uneasy Peace With the White House
Abrignac Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,384
I’ve no interest in reading a 600 page book about why and/or how the Fed should be dismantled. To fill that many pages it would either require a very nuanced plan or include quite a bit of opinion. So without some sort of preamble I’ll pass.

On the other hand it seems a fairly simple bullet list of objectives with plan of execution should be easy to articulate.

That said can anyone who believes we should dismantle the Fed post say a 10-15 step process? Not asking for details. Just a simple bullet list in the order things should be done.
RayR Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,946
Abrignac wrote:
I’ve no interest in reading a 600 page book about why and/or how the Fed should be dismantled. To fill that many pages it would either require a very nuanced plan or include quite a bit of opinion. So without some sort of preamble I’ll pass.

On the other hand it seems a fairly simple bullet list of objectives with plan of execution should be easy to articulate.

That said can anyone who believes we should dismantle the Fed post say a 10-15 step process? Not asking for details. Just a simple bullet list in the order things should be done.


So book learnin' and listening isn't your THING...huh? You want everything distilled down to a bullet list so you can digest it? SAD. Sad
rfenst Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
DrMaddVibe wrote:
My take on the Federal Reserve is what Ron Paul warned us all about. They need to be audited. It's a criminal enterprise.

I have zero problem with an audit, especially those performed on a regular basis, say quarterly?
rfenst Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
jeebling wrote:
My argument is that the FED is the instrument of financial disaster. It has failed in its mission. The market economy can’t self-regulate under the FED.

The market economy is not nearly liquid enough or sufficient to replace the fed in the short or intermediate run. If it could provide the liquidity in the long run, there is the question of what occurs in the time between now and how and when market liquidity would match demand.
rfenst Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
jeebling wrote:
Fraud, of course. They have cheated middle class Americans out of their savings and retirement plans for the purpose of the political gain of the government. These changes they make to the monetary system are not approved by representation but by political appointees. This is fraud.

No. "Fraud" is generally defined as an intentional, material, misrepresentation which induces another to act to his own detriment in a way that would not otherwise have occurred, but for the material, intentional, misrepresentation. There is no such thing as "fraud after the fact" like you are alleging.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
rfenst wrote:
I have zero problem with an audit, especially those performed on a regular basis, say quarterly?


Well...the Federal Reserve seems to feel that one isn't needed.

Ever.

What if...and I know it's a big if...but what if they opened the vault at Ft. Knox and there was NOTHING there?
rfenst Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
RobertHively wrote:
For Fenster #28:

Same here, but I've asked you multiple questions over the years and most of the time I get crickets. Though it is absolutely your prerogative if you don't want to answer. Sometimes, I don't get on CBID for up to close to a week. By then, too much in a thread has gone so "down hill' that I just don't want to start any new chit up again.

And I agree with that statement for the most part, but if you state your opinion up front it helps to eliminate the possibility of misinterpretation.(most of the time anyway) I thought if you posted an article that meant you agreed with it, at least to some extent, that's why I asked you in post #6 just to make sure. No. My posts of articles are subjects I find interesting and don't necessarily reflect my opinions.

Over the years I've read a lot, if not most, of your posts, and although a lot of the copy and paste leans liberal, you don't really seem that liberal to me, in the old school liberal sense. Is that accurate? Do you consider yourself a liberal? I am a "social liberal" in the sense that I am definitely pro-choice/anti-government interference as to abortion. I believe social policy can be used by government to address certain specific social issues, not nearly everything. I believe the border and all related unresolved immigration issues have been a mess for decades due to politics and such, and that it is getting worse. I believe that our country has no business spending more than it takes in/over-borrowing on a regular basis. I'd like to see government out of our lives as much as possible, but believe it is sometimes beneficial in certain matters, e.g. defense, infrastructure and the like, at a minimum.
...

So on your OP, the Federal Reserve, I think fractional reserve banking and the use of fiat money is a Ponzi scheme, destined for failure. I can't change that, but I can hedge against it with tangible commodities, like land, precious metals, growing my own food etc- just overall being more self reliant. To each his own on this one.

Ultimately, I think a lot of these debates are about if one has trust in our system, our institutions and our government. I see all of the flaws and hypocrisy on both sides and I walk the other way. I try to focus on what I can do as an individual. There are many ways around the system. I'm living proof of that. As am I, 100%. We each just like different "flavors."
....

rfenst Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Well...the Federal Reserve seems to feel that one isn't needed.

Ever.

What if...and I know it's a big if...but what if they opened the vault at Ft. Knox and there was NOTHING there?

Why even bother?
Abrignac Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,384
rfenst wrote:
Why even bother?


Yep. A statement like that takes a special kind of stupid. That’s a perfect example of being backed into a corner with no rational alternative so some outlandish farfetched possibility is floated instead of conceding an indefensible position. It cultlike.
RayR Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,946
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Well...the Federal Reserve seems to feel that one isn't needed.

Ever.

What if...and I know it's a big if...but what if they opened the vault at Ft. Knox and there was NOTHING there?



Never mind the haters DMV.

Auditing The Federal Reserve to find out all the nefarious things they've done would hurt them like the dickens, but they have been taking names and know what skeletons are in certain politicians' closets to keep them in line.

I've heard the average Boobus Americanus believes that the dollar is backed by gold that is held in Ft. Knox. although the Federal Reserve Note representing the dollar isn't back by anything but DEBT.
In truth whatever U.S. government gold is left is buried in a vault under NYC along with reserves held for safe keeping owned by foreign entities. The Treasury mints some 24K gold into 1 troy oz. gold coins costing around $2400 currently but only have a legal tender value of $50.00, which is to deter the people from actually using gold as money to pay debts and taxes. GOD forbid that people would choose gold as their money over unbacked paper debt notes, the FED greenbacks would soon be depreciated to nothing.
Abrignac Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,384
One of the “evil” things the Fed does is to facilitate fractional lending. Fractional lending is essentially entity A securing a loan for funds not in possession to give to entity B. It then presumes the entity that took the loan is going to repay that loan so it can repay its loan.

How does that differ from a scenario where entity A goes to entity B and secures a loan, with the proceeds of that loan entity A secures products from entity C to sell to entity D and hopes entity D will make appropriate payment so it can repay its loan to entity B?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
rfenst wrote:
Why even bother?



Why should the Federal Reserve be audited?

Look at all of the damage to the US economy and the World they have created. You can down the list of chairman's and see the lies and wrong direction and inaction they have been a party to. Why, you'd firmly believe that they were a government agency! They're not.

That's why.
jeebling Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
rfenst wrote:
No. "Fraud" is generally defined as an intentional, material, misrepresentation which induces another to act to his own detriment in a way that would not otherwise have occurred, but for the material, intentional, misrepresentation. There is no such thing as "fraud after the fact" like you are alleging.


If the misrepresentation for political gain at the expense of taxpayers is not fraudulent by definition then it must be theft.
jeebling Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
rfenst wrote:
No. "Fraud" is generally defined as an intentional, material, misrepresentation which induces another to act to his own detriment in a way that would not otherwise have occurred, but for the material, intentional, misrepresentation. There is no such thing as "fraud after the fact" like you are alleging.


Your definition is not quite correct. Here’s from Black’s Law Dictionary. I had to look it up.

https://thelawdictionary.org/fraud/
jeebling Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
rfenst wrote:
The market economy is not nearly liquid enough or sufficient to replace the fed in the short or intermediate run. If it could provide the liquidity in the long run, there is the question of what occurs in the time between now and how and when market liquidity would match demand.


Correct. So this will take years to unwind. Throwing the balance sheet on the market one morning is not what I had in mind. Continuing status quo just makes the problem worse leading to a crisis that we can’t truly recover from.
Speyside2 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,477
I have no idea what the new system should be, not my expertise. My thought is a well planed phase in over say 20 years. This would be a slower ate of change, 5% per year. I do not know if this is doable or not.
jeebling Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
I’m far from an expert. I’m just enjoying an interesting topic and sharing my opinions, trying to see other perspectives I may not have given enough attention to or may need to reconsider. I have thought a lot about it though and I’m not thinking these things for the first time as I type them out in this thread. Still, I remind myself that it is easier for me to throw darts at the FED than it is for those responsible to fix it or decommission it.
rfenst Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
jeebling wrote:
Your definition is not quite correct. Here’s from Black’s Law Dictionary. I had to look it up.

https://thelawdictionary.org/fraud/

Your link is not even secure.
Moreover, it isn't even related to Black's.
LMFAO!!!
RayR Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,946
Did someone say Federal Reserve Fraud?
I heard they had to pass the Federal Reserve Act so they could find out what was in it.

Monopoly Men (Federal Reserve Fraud) (1999)

https://youtu.be/CpvVsUxPL_0?si=6dsp1G8Zml0AgOr7
jeebling Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
rfenst wrote:
Your link is not even secure.
Moreover, it isn't even related to Black's.
LMFAO!!!

Had to edit my response here…

You are right and I was wrong. The definition I quoted is from Black’s but it did not include the 4th part. I stand corrected, sir. Fraud includes the part where the “victim” took action on the information provided by the fraudsters.
rfenst Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
jeebling wrote:
Had to edit my response here…

You are right and I was wrong. The definition I quoted is from Black’s but it did not include the 4th part. I stand corrected, sir. Fraud includes the part where the “victim” took action on the information provided by the fraudsters.

Good catch!

Moreover, the misinformation provided by the fraudster has to be "material" (critically important) and "induce" (cause another to act)...
rfenst Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
The Economic Slowdown Is Finally Here. Welcome It.
Services sector cools as consumers pull back, putting rate cuts back on the table

WSJ

Evidence is stacking up that the U.S. economy has slowed, led by the formerly red-hot services sector.

Yet overall activity levels remain healthy, and some cooling is welcome news to investors because it opens the door back up to possible rate cuts by the Federal Reserve.

The most obvious indicator was Friday’s employment report, which showed the economy added 175,000 jobs in April, down significantly from 315,000 in March. Particularly notable was the shift to just 5,000 jobs being added in the leisure and hospitality sector compared with 53,000 in March.

This is consistent with earnings reports over the past week from food-services providers including Starbucks and McDonald’s, which both cited growing caution among consumers. Even Kraft Heinz said out-of-home venues such as restaurants are buying less from it.

“The consumer is certainly being very discriminating in how they spend their dollar. And the inflation that has occurred over the last couple of years in the U.S., I think, has certainly created that environment,” McDonald’s Chief Executive Christopher Kempczinski told analysts on a conference call on Tuesday. Starbucks, for its part, reported a 3% decline in North American comparable-store sales in the first quarter which, along with weakness in China, prompted a 15.9% plunge in its stock price.

Also on Friday, a monthly survey by the Institute for Supply Management showed services-sector activity dipping into contractionary territory in April for the first time in 15 months. “The composition of the report was weak, as the employment, new orders, and business activity components all declined,” Goldman Sachs economists said in a note.

Of course, it wasn’t all doom and gloom. True, the unemployment rate ticked up to 3.9% in April from 3.8% the prior month. But, as the Bureau of Labor Statistics noted, this indicator has been in a narrow range of between 3.7% and 3.9% since August of last year. Economists at Bank of America said they see evidence that the great “catch up” in services-sector employment following the pandemic is finally ending. “In our view, this is not an outright negative sign for the economy,” they added.

One very welcome sign from the Fed’s point of view is the continued slowdown in wage growth, with average hourly earnings rising just 3.9% from a year earlier in April, compared with 4.1% in March and 4.3% in February. This suggests pricing pressures could keep subsiding, despite the stubbornly high inflation reports of recent months.

Indeed, Friday’s soft jobs data was enough to get investors thinking about rate cuts again. Stocks rose and bond yields fell on the data, with the S&P 500 gaining 1.3% and yields on benchmark 10-year Treasurys declining by 0.07 percentage point. A move at the Fed’s next meeting in June still seems to be off the table. But the likelihood of a cut by September as implied by the Fed Funds futures market rose to 67.1% late Friday from 61.6% a day earlier, according to CME Group.

If the economic data cooperates between now and then, the possibility of a sneaky July cut could keep creeping higher. Right now, markets put that at just a 36.6% chance, but it is Goldman Sachs’s base case.

A little summer slowdown could be just what this economy needs.
jeebling Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
rfenst wrote:
Good catch!

Moreover, the misinformation provided by the fraudster has to be "material" (critically important) and "induce" (cause another to act)...


Well, it was a good catch but you caught it. And I’m a little bit smarter now lol
Speyside2 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,477
At the right price precious metals are good investments. Especially if the economy goes belly up. There is a very good chance the stock market crashes after the elections. The increase since boomers started retiring makes no sense. Cash is leaving the market faster than cash is coming into the market. This should cause a decrease in the market, it has not. I think right now semi-precious gems may be a good investment also. I seldom see a stock that interests me. The P/E ratios are way too high, also debt is huge for so many companies. Crypto is risky because it is so volatile, but I have more faith in it than fiat money.
rfenst Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
Speyside2 wrote:
... Crypto is risky because it is so volatile, but I have more faith in it than fiat money.

Really?
Abrignac Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,384
Speyside2 wrote:
At the right price precious metals are good investments. Especially if the economy goes belly up. There is a very good chance the stock market crashes after the elections. The increase since boomers started retiring makes no sense. Cash is leaving the market faster than cash is coming into the market. This should cause a decrease in the market, it has not. I think right now semi-precious gems may be a good investment also. I seldom see a stock that interests me. The P/E ratios are way too high, also debt is huge for so many companies. Crypto is risky because it is so volatile, but I have more faith in it than fiat money.


I’m curious as to why you believe that?
Speyside2 Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,477
I think investors may panic if Biden wins the election. As a generality most investors are reactionary and not proactive. Also, I am taking into consideration the rest of what I wrote after the statement you highlighted. I strongly believe the market is due for a large correction for those reasons. If enough investor start selling off it seems to me that panic will set in, and others sell off also. As you know my grammar/English is poor. I did not mean to sound so smug/sure about that. It is only my opinion. Rather I should have started that sentence with, I think. That would have best portrayed what I was thinking.
Abrignac Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,384
Speyside2 wrote:
I think investors may panic if Biden wins the election. As a generality most investors are reactionary and not proactive. Also, I am taking into consideration the rest of what I wrote after the statement you highlighted. I strongly believe the market is due for a large correction for those reasons. If the average investor starts selling off it seems to me that panic sets in and others sell off due to that. As you know my grammar/English is poor. I did not mean to sound so smug/sure about that. It is only my opinion. Rather I should have started that sentence with, I think. That would have best portrayed what I was thinking.


You’re fine. I was just curious as to why you felt that way.

I don’t see an investor panic simply because Biden got re-elected. I think it any correlation does manifest would be more due to a cooling off of the economy. If so, it could happen if Trump gets elected.

As far as PE’s are concerned I wouldn’t read too much into that other than perhaps those stocks with higher PE’s may fall further simply to become more realistically priced in line with actual value. Keep in mind the price of a publicly traded stock rarely reflects the actual value of its assets and earnings.
jeebling Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
Just reflecting on this overall topic and referring back to the relationship of the Treasury and the FED printing and distributing new money that was not created by economic output but rather by adding numbers to ledgers. Those trillions of dollars don’t stay in the pockets of taxpayers. They percolate back to banks. The banks don’t just sit on the money. They loan it out and invest it. That inflation that makes a bag of Doritos cost $7.49 also raises the price of stock shares. Some would call this type of inflation growth. But, interest rates and unemployment numbers, if they are not favorable, could result in a horrific bubble for Wall Street. Of course this only hurts us suckers at the bottom of the wealth / income scale. This is an over simplified statement. My point is that the risk seems to be pretty high at the moment.
rfenst Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,461
Inflation Rate in the United States averaged 3.30 percent from 1914 until 2024 (reaching an all time high of 23.70 percent in June of 1920 and a record low of -15.80 percent in June of 1921).


https://www.google.com/search?q=us+inflation+rate+long+run&oq=us+inflation+rate+long+run&gs_lcrp=EgZjaH
JvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yCAgCEAAYFhgeMg0IAxAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBBAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0
IBRAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBhAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMgoIBxAAGIAEGKIEMgoICBAAGIAEGKIEMgoICR
AAGIAEGKIE0gEJMTY1OThqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



30 Year Mortgage Rate in the United States averaged 7.73 percent from 1971 until 2024 (reaching an all time high of 18.63 percent in October of 1981 and a record low of 2.65 percent in January of 2021.)


https://www.google.com/search?
q=average+historical+morgage+rate&oq=average+historical+morgage+rate&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyB
ggAEEUYOTIJCAEQABgNGIAEMgkIAhAAGA0YgAQyCQgDEAAYDRiABDIICAQQABgWGB4yCAgFEAAYFhgeMggI
BhAAGBYYHjIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHtIBCTIwNzAzajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=
chrome&ie=UTF-8
jeebling Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
Here’s the 90 year chart for S&P 500 PE. Looks like it is doing just fine at the moment.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2577/sp-500-pe-ratio-price-to-earnings-chart


This is the 5 year chart for S&P 500 vs durable goods. I think the thicker chart isn’t really helpful IRT this conversation…at this point anyway. Looks like a minor correction is in the works. Either an increase in durable goods or a decrease in earnings. All part of the business cycle, I understand. And I suppose, just like any cycle, there will be boom and bust events.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2601/sp-500-vs-durable-goods-chart
jeebling Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
Here’s a graph on money supply for anyone who’s curious.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/money-supply-m2
DrMaddVibe Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,618
jeebling wrote:
Here’s the 90 year chart for S&P 500 PE. Looks like it is doing just fine at the moment.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2577/sp-500-pe-ratio-price-to-earnings-chart


This is the 5 year chart for S&P 500 vs durable goods. I think the thicker chart isn’t really helpful IRT this conversation…at this point anyway. Looks like a minor correction is in the works. Either an increase in durable goods or a decrease in earnings. All part of the business cycle, I understand. And I suppose, just like any cycle, there will be boom and bust events.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2601/sp-500-vs-durable-goods-chart


Shutting down the World's economies due to a plandemic is going to have longer lasting issues. It's not like it's a lawnmower being started up for the 1st time in Spring...yeah, some people need to pay for what they did to create that mess.
jeebling Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
I believe you are correct. I think with one little bursting bubble we will start seeing other bubbles popping. Congress and POTUS can’t keep spending the way they do.

“ Federal spending is classified in two basic categories: mandatory and discretionary. About 63 percent of the federal budget is mandatory spending, 30 percent is discretionary spending, and the rest is interest payments on debt.”


https://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-introduction-to-the-federal-budget-process#:~:text=Federal%20spending%20is%20classified%20in%20two%20basic%20categories%3A,rest%20is%20interest%20payments%20on%20debt%20%28see%20chart%29.
RayR Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,946
Is Joey B's chair of the United States Council of Economic Advisers just DUMB or does he have DIMENTIA like Joe?

White House Econ Chair Can’t Answer Simple Question on Monetary Policy

Michael McKay

Quote:
Incredible.

Jake Bernstein, President Biden’s Econ Council Chairman can’t answer a basic econ question.

Watch this 2 minute abomination

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/white-house-econ-chair-cant-answer-simple-question-on-monetary-policy/
jeebling Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
^That is laughable yet tragic. He is begging the question. He sounds like a drug addict explaining why he needs a hit to get over withdrawal symptoms. Disgraceful. Definitely not what Keynes had in mind. Keynes was something of a deficit hawk and his ideas about government spending are fundamentally misunderstood and misrepresented.
RayR Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,946
jeebling wrote:
^That is laughable yet tragic. He is begging the question. He sounds like a drug addict explaining why he needs a hit to get over withdrawal symptoms. Disgraceful. Definitely not what Keynes had in mind. Keynes was something of a deficit hawk and his ideas about government spending are fundamentally misunderstood and misrepresented.



Javier Milei when asked, "who was John Maynard Keynes?": replied, "He was a criminal". Javier knows a lot about Keynes.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/political-theatre/javier-milei-on-john-maynard-keynes-he-was-a-criminal/

jeebling Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,518
Javier Milei..I’m a fan
RobertHively Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,949
New Hampshire Goldback: https://www.goldback.com/new-hampshire-goldback-gallery

Supposedly a new medium of exchange, for people that wont go along with Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) after the dollar collapses.

They are aLLegEdlY backed by gold and silver, and are accepted as currency in New Hampshire, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming and South Dakota.

They're for sale at APMEX among other places: https://www.apmex.com/category/19605/goldbacks

If I didn't live in one of those five states, I'd keep stacking the actual metal though.

Read an article on Zero Hedge that mentioned them.

"Live Free or Die" and stuff.
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