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What happened to the deal maker?
teedubbya Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 79,848
I can't understand why the people I don't respect and call names don't respect people like me and call me names.
SteveS Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,340
victor809 wrote:
Hell the so called conservatives here (CINO?) want to be socialists deep down. They just aren't smart enough to realize money has to come from somewhere.


Now, here is a bit of seriously convoluted thinking ... conservatives KNOW the money has to come from somewhere, it's the libs who somehow think they can undertake any and every socialist project without giving even a passing thought to the costs and how they're to be paid for ...
victor809 Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
SteveS wrote:
Now, here is a bit of seriously convoluted thinking ... conservatives KNOW the money has to come from somewhere, it's the libs who somehow think they can undertake any and every socialist project without giving even a passing thought to the costs and how they're to be paid for ...


Yeah... conservatives like to claim they know this.

but look at how many "conservatives" want to keep the pre-existing conditions coverage for people.


You can say you know money has to come from somewhere. But actions speak a lot louder than words.
victor809 Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
Heck.. look at the "conservatives" in this forum who admit to having signed someone up for health insurance AFTER they got sick, and then dropped them once they were better.

That's a complete demonstration of not understanding that the money has to come from somewhere.
JoeKillerKeenan Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2017
Posts: 12
frankj1 wrote:
burn the snowflakes?

welcome?


Sarcasm

I don't want to physically hurt them! Just a little banter.

And thanks for the Welcome! Herfing
frankj1 Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 16,144
JoeKillerKeenan wrote:
Sarcasm

I don't want to physically hurt them! Just a little banter.

And thanks for the Welcome! Herfing

Welcome!
SteveS Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,340
JoeKillerKeenan wrote:
thanks for the Welcome!


You're welcome
TMCTLT Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 18,723
DrafterX wrote:
People weren't fined for not having it... Mellow



AND...they could actually afford TO USE IT after the premiums and deductibles were met!!!!! fog
TMCTLT Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 18,723
frankj1 wrote:
yup.

to my knowledge, the idea that America deserved to have everyone insured began with Ted Kennedy and Richard Nixon.

Trash Romneycare all you (not you X) want but this idea of covering all citizens has been floating around for a half century for a YUUUGE reason...American citizens want it.

Emergency rooms started to turn profits because they did not have to be the PC Physician for uninsured folks with sniffles and stuff.

people talk about increased costs, but they have no figures that tell the truth about what uninsured medical care has been costing us all these decades. For all the whining, we may each be saving money, or at least could be with a few tweaks, while placing a higher value on life and health.



And what's Obammycare for the Illegals costing us? They most certainly DO NOT deserve it in any way shape or form and while they ( the Dems pushing it ) said it would NOT be available to them....IT IS. again what's the bill for that?
dstieger Online
#60 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
I can not think of one single politician who has had OUR interests at heart regarding health care....I'm fn sick of the politics of it. NOBODY has mentioned working to reduce overall health care costs, nor introduce cost transparency.

I haven't heard a single Democrat suggest (convincingly) that they would work with Republicans to actually improve the bill(s.)

Funny, I didn't hear a single R mention the word 'repeal' in the past 4 or 5 days....buzz words seem to be 'improve', 'incremental', 'change'......I am just floored that not one leading Republican had the foresight to figure out that while 'repeal' rallied some sort of a base, the majority of the population never bought in; or really bothered to consider what 'repeal' meant.......If both sides of the aisle in those dysfunctional bodies had ever talked seriously about 'improving' things 7 years ago, instead of playing politics, maybe the people of this country would be better off.
DrafterX Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 75,596
Victor, I'm not sure I'm allowed to speak for all Conservatives... I was just concerned about you... if you lose your job how you gonna treat your hep..?? Mellow
tailgater Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
delta1 wrote:
[/h]

Or accept that healthcare is something every citizen should have, kinda basic to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" thingy.

We could just let people die... that is the ultra conservative viewpoint. If you can't pay for it, then too bad, because you can't expect me to shell out a penny for your healthcare.

Really harsh...but eventually one of those people will be someone close to/or you...

The fundamental question that should be asked is should healthcare and health insurance continue to be a "for profit" business, like in America. Most modern societies have single payer systems: kinda like social security where every tax payer pays a small percentage for healthcare, thereby ensuring a consistent and large enough pool of money for every one, coupled with wellness programs and preventative care systems to reduce catastrophic costs.


(dusting off old argument from 9 years ago)

So you want to put 1/6 of our GDP into the hands of the federal government?
Because they're so efficient and will handle it best?

Time and again the USA has proven that private beats public when it comes to efficiency and management.
If it needs regulations, fine. Let Washington get her fingers wet.

But it is beyond foolish to think that our feds will keep costs down. It's like a bad punchline to even suggest it.
delta1 Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
If we take the "for profit" expense out of healthcare, our cost would be in line with the five other countries similar to US: Austria, Canada, GB, Germany, Switzerland, all now about 1/10th of GDP.

People have been claiming private beats public, and use the US Postal Service vs Fed Ex and UPS as examples. Guess which service Fed EX and UPS hands a package off to when it finds it too inefficient/expensive to deliver to some remote corner of our country?

Take an honest look at healthcare back when government wasn't involved. For-profit health care and health insurers (private companies) were in charge: rate increases were astronomical, those with pre-existing conditions couldn't get insurance, cost of medicines were through the roof, patients had to litigate/sue their providers to enforce their policies, people who were sick and didn't have insurance flooded emergency rooms, which many hospitals were shutting down... That's why the US per capita expense for medical care was/is more than 50% higher than any other country.

So if we are going to decide to return to that system, then the GOP should be honest and explain it that way...but they won't. They'll insist their plan is better, that their plan will be "doctor/patient centered" and other obfuscating slogans that will hide the real message that the average American won't benefit, many will lose their insurance, costs for insurance will be higher, crap/worthless policies will become the norm like before, medical decisions for you and me will be motivated by profit, the wealthy will no longer have to pay a higher tax rate, and the GOP will sell it like sliced bread and their followers will believe them until those who got real insurance through Obamacare get cut off...

The crux of the matter is "for profit". Top three healthcare insurance company CEO's annual salaries in 2015: Cigna, $17.3 Million; Aetna, $17.3 Million, United Health, $14.3 Million...

Salary for the US Secretary of Health and Human Services: $ 207,800/year
victor809 Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
... I'm not seeing the problem. ... well... except that I'm not one of those CEOs... but heck. If you can't take money from other people who are you gonna take money from?

There's prolly a lot of so called "conservatives" here who'll tell you it's about freedom of choice. And that they're going to come up with a system that lets people choose everything plus covers anyone who gets sick. And they'll all get a puppy.
tailgater Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
I agree that there was a trending issue with insurers of healthcare.
But I disagree that the government takeover will make it better.

I like how you cherry pick your data: You didn't compare UPS to USPS for an overall ability to deliver packages. You point out their decision to sub their low volume jobs.
News for you: Healthcare isn't in a mess because of the "low volume" jobs.

I don't have the answers, and there are others on the board who know way more than I do about healthcare insurance.

But a government is meant to govern. Not to run a business. And certainly not to compete with the private sector.

And stop saying "for profit" like it's a dirty word.


delta1 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
victor809 wrote:
... I'm not seeing the problem. ... well... except that I'm not one of those CEOs... but heck. If you can't take money from other people who are you gonna take money from?

There's prolly a lot of so called "conservatives" here who'll tell you it's about freedom of choice. And that they're going to come up with a system that lets people choose everything plus covers anyone who gets sick. And they'll all get a puppy.


Dayummm...you reduced the GOP position on healthcare in the US to two sentences...kudos...
delta1 Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
For people who are sick or dying, should "for profit" enter the discussion when deciding what is the best course of treatment?

"For profit" is great when you're making cars, building houses and buildings, farming, making guns, making electronics, providing sexual services, playing sports and music, writing, expressing opinions on radio and TV...

Capitalism is a for profit way of life that has made America great and is the reason for the federal govt in the first place: the separate colonies with their individual farmers needed roads to ship their goods, but the individuals didn't want to pay for them...and here we are...
dstieger Online
#68 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
Yep
teedubbya Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 79,848
TMCTLT wrote:
And what's Obammycare for the Illegals costing us? They most certainly DO NOT deserve it in any way shape or form and while they ( the Dems pushing it ) said it would NOT be available to them....IT IS. again what's the bill for that?



Tell us. You say it's happening. If it is there is an accounting for it. There is a number. Tell us what it is. I'm not sure under obammy care where you see coverage for illegals but if it's there show me. Then lets cut that piece out. I agree it shouldn't be there.
dstieger Online
#70 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
delta1 wrote:
For people who are sick or dying, should "for profit" enter the discussion when deciding what is the best course of treatment?

"For profit" is great when you're making cars, building houses and buildings, farming, making guns, making electronics, providing sexual services, playing sports and music, writing, expressing opinions on radio and TV...

Capitalism is a for profit way of life that has made America great and is the reason for the federal govt in the first place: the separate colonies with their individual farmers needed roads to ship their goods, but the individuals didn't want to pay for them...and here we are...



There's always going to be a 'range' of care available...and a range of 'ability to pay'. Anything less than capitalism will ensure that only the lowest common denominator level of care is available to all.

The best doctors and the best hospitals should be compensated better than poor doctors and hospitals. A rich dude should have the option to pay for 'better' care than a medicaid guy. Maybe it sounds sucky to a lot of people that the medicaid guy isn't going to always get the same care as the millionaire....but as soon as you try to insist that they be treated the same....we're ****ed....the system will not improve...overall quality must go down. We'll get to the point where Mr. Homeless gets the same level of care as Mr. Moneybags....but it will be an incredibly low level
victor809 Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
... and none of us want Mr Homeless to have a particularly long life anyway....
dstieger Online
#72 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
nothing I said there should be interpreted as meaning that I'm good with status quo. I'm pretty fn pissed that the health care market is so far from capitalism, or free-market, right now that it makes me sick....I need a doctor.

But the more we gravitate towards socialized medicine, the worse off everyone will be....and maybe that's ok with the average liberal or democrat....as long as no rich dudes have access to better doctors or more expensive treatment than those that have the poverty line coming up in their rear view mirror
victor809 Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
...and the less I'll make. Don't forget that dstieg... that's a very important factor in our healthcare choices...
delta1 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
^ Valid points, I do not disagree...and I think the situation you describe is possible...a baseline low level of medical care, and ultra care for those who can pay...that situation already exists in most large cities...
Buckwheat Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 10,744
victor809 wrote:
If your goal is to not give free stuff then you take it away.

Their goal isn't to do that though. Their goal is to get reelected.


Trump filed for re-election on January 20, 2017 for the 2020 presidential election. A bit premature by any normal standards. fog
tailgater Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
delta1 wrote:
For people who are sick or dying, should "for profit" enter the discussion when deciding what is the best course of treatment?

"For profit" is great when you're making cars, building houses and buildings, farming, making guns, making electronics, providing sexual services, playing sports and music, writing, expressing opinions on radio and TV...

Capitalism is a for profit way of life that has made America great and is the reason for the federal govt in the first place: the separate colonies with their individual farmers needed roads to ship their goods, but the individuals didn't want to pay for them...and here we are...


You could apply an empathetic litmus test to anything:
Should we charge for food when so many are starving?
Should we charge rent when people are on the street?
Why have a border wall when that family merely wants an opportunity in America?

It's why we need laws.
Not to eliminate the empathy. But to define the responsibility.

So yes. "For Profit" is a part of the discussion. Without profit there are no insurers outside of the government. And they don't care about efficiency.
You think it's ridiculous now when the teacher's cry about their pay raise being "for the children"?
Wait until they tell you it's for the sick and deprived.




tonygraz Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 8,450
The French used a guillotine to get things evened out.
RMAN4443 Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 894
tonygraz wrote:
The French used a guillotine to get things evened out.

Come on now.....let's not lose our heads Anxious
frankj1 Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 16,144
meh, same old GOP, same old swamp.

Bush forced seniors to get script coverage and refused to allow script pricing negotiations...winner=Big Pharma, not seniors.

Trump was trying to fund his next play...magnificent tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy and huge biz. How ya gonna pay for massive military expenditures? gut health insurance and benies to the poor.

Old formula.

welcome back to 1984. Not to the future.
tailgater Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
To be clear, don't confuse my discussion points as a vote in favor of whatever Trump brewed up on this healthcare debacle.

99% of the mewling over Trump is based on snowflake feelings.
But this healthcare thingy is an epic fail.

Although I did hear that Trump is increasing federal funding to some medical universities.
Something about hand enlargement?



tailgater Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
tonygraz wrote:
The French used a guillotine to get things evened out.


That wasn't a guillotine.
It was used for my circumcision.
dstieger Online
#82 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
So...to summarize...a little reading between the headlines of all the (fake?) news out there:

Republicans spent 7 years of crowing to the American people that Obamacare is a lousy lay, and we should kick it out of bed so they could **** us good. But, after taking them up on their offer...well, turns out they couldn't get it up.

So, the twisted unintended consequence is that now states that have been sitting on the side just stroking their own medicaid....waiting for a proper boning from the big GOP ******....turns out that short of some Viagara....and QUICK, they're gonna go ahead and blow their load on more Medicaid expansion.....good luck undoing that.....ever
DrafterX Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 75,596
Ya... Thanks Obama. .!! Mad
delta1 Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
dstieger wrote:
So...to summarize...a little reading between the headlines of all the (fake?) news out there:

Republicans spent 7 years of crowing to the American people that Obamacare is a lousy lay, and we should kick it out of bed so they could **** us good. But, after taking them up on their offer...well, turns out they couldn't get it up.

So, the twisted unintended consequence is that now states that have been sitting on the side just stroking their own medicaid....waiting for a proper boning from the big GOP ******....turns out that short of some Viagara....and QUICK, they're gonna go ahead and blow their load on more Medicaid expansion.....good luck undoing that.....ever


That's it, in a "nut" shell. Send that to Spicer and see if he has the balls to read that to the media in his daily briefing...ThumpUp ThumpUp
dstieger Online
#85 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 7,110
I suspect the pundits have got it wrong about how we voters are going to kill all the R's for botching this.

Even among the most diehard "Repeal Obamacare" adherents, I'll bet there aren't more than a few dozen who can accurately articulate what they think is wrong with it. We've been force fed idea that it sucks and that it needs to be repealed and that it was a monumental mistake that few of us ever gave it a critical thought. Made for good campaign blather, but I don't know anyone who really gives a rats ass if it gets repealed...except maybe Paul.

My stepmotherinlaw is one good exception because as a small/med business owner, she has personally done the math and examined alternatives and can tell me what aspects of the law were hosed up and why it could have hurt her business....but I can't say that I've met anyone else like that
delta1 Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
Conservatives should have known that telling all their voters that they wouldn't like eating crap (decent healthcare) wouldn't go over when their people finally got a taste that was crammed down their throats and realized that's "ice cream "


The Trump administration will do all it can to kill Obamacare, by removing all the federal money that keeps it afloat...then people will start losing coverage, and the ACA will prolly be history...but the people have tasted ice cream...
victor809 Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 12,174
... not sure I'd call Obamacare ice cream...
delta1 Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
...it is a stretch, but for those 22 plus million who never had decent health care benefits, many who showed up at town-halls saying they first thought Obamacare was crap because that's what the GOP told them, but they got it and it saved their/their relatives' lives, they'll say it's a "revelation"
tailgater Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
delta1 wrote:
Conservatives should have known that telling all their voters that they wouldn't like eating crap (decent healthcare) wouldn't go over when their people finally got a taste that was crammed down their throats and realized that's "ice cream "




First off, this isn't about healthcare. It's about healthcare insurance.
And for the average WORKER in this nation, healthcare hasn't changed. It's just become MORE expensive.

Perhaps the employer is paying more and you don't see it.

In 2008 our family plan on a PPO or HMO was under $1000 per month.
Last year it was over $1500/month.
Similar deductible and coverage.

Obama fans say it would have been even higher without Obamacare.
I say Bullchit.

It needed fixing in 2008.
It needs a complete overhaul now.

And No. I don't want what Trump proposed.

frankj1 Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 16,144
tailgater wrote:
First off, this isn't about healthcare. It's about healthcare insurance.


not sure, really.

It may simply be about how to fund massive military build up/infrastructure work while giving massive tax cuts to Friends of Trump...
delta1 Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 10,422
tailgater wrote:
First off, this isn't about healthcare. It's about healthcare insurance.
And for the average WORKER in this nation, healthcare hasn't changed. It's just become MORE expensive.

Perhaps the employer is paying more and you don't see it.

In 2008 our family plan on a PPO or HMO was under $1000 per month.
Last year it was over $1500/month.
Similar deductible and coverage.

Obama fans say it would have been even higher without Obamacare.
I say Bullchit.

It needed fixing in 2008.
It needs a complete overhaul now.

And No. I don't want what Trump proposed.




...glad we found something else that we can agree about...
Mr. Jones Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 8,480
#63 delta1

Your saying the top three private U.S. health insurance companies paid their CEO's :
$17.3
$17.3
$14.3
?????????

WTF???

That is freakin' INSANE IN THE MEMBRANE...

THOSE CEO's do absolutely
N.O.T.H.I.N.G.
TO EARN THAT KINDA DOUGH...

ALL they do is PHUQ about five HOT slutty SECRETARIES a DAY,
GO GOLFING 3 times a week,
Attend conferences in HAWAII and FLORIDA
( bang HOT pharmacy CHICK reps.in their hottub suites at said conferences)...
And buy MANICURED MUTLI-MILLION DOLLAR MANSIONS ON CAPE COD,
NANTUCKET AND MARTHAS VINEYARD and only go to them 3 weeks outta the year ( I have driven through those OLD MONEY AND NOVEAU REEECH
CAPE COD NEIGHBORHOODS...IN PEAK SUMMER VACATION TIME...THEY ARE ALAWYS E.M.P.T.Y.
with no cars in the driveway, no lights on, no humans
Outside on the lawns < so immaculate that you could eat food off of them).
DrafterX Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 75,596
frankj1 wrote:
not sure, really.

It may simply be about how to fund massive military build up/infrastructure work while giving massive tax cuts to Friends of Trump...




we're gonna fund somethin instead of running up da debt..?? Huh
tailgater Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
frankj1 wrote:
not sure, really.

It may simply be about how to fund massive military build up/infrastructure work while giving massive tax cuts to Friends of Trump...


Massive.


tailgater Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 19,449
delta1 wrote:
...glad we found something else that we can agree about...


Herfing
frankj1 Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 16,144
tailgater wrote:
Massive.



well, I don't wanna brag...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 46,354
tailgater wrote:
Massive.





YUUUUUUUUUUUGE!!!
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