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Last post 21 months ago by delta1. 326 replies replies.
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Who is..."the WHISTLEBLOWER" ala the ukranian-gate stoolie
opelmanta1900 Offline
#151 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
victor809 wrote:
...and you believe the president is allowed to leverage assets and favors of the United States citizens to encourage people to respond to those requests?

Vice presidents obviously can... and have... and bragged about it... and then gone on to run for president...

so ya, it'd be that word again to think the president can't do something the vice president (and 2020 dem nominee) did like 3 years ago...
delta1 Offline
#152 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 25,779
in a general sense, we all can speak to any one however we want...but there are limits to speech, written into law...one limit is that a US official may not solicit or receive aid in a US election from foreign sources...

52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:

Making any contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States;
Making any contribution or donation to any committee or organization of any national, state, district, or local political party (including donations to a party nonfederal account or office building account);
Making any disbursement for an electioneering communication;
Making any donation to a presidential inaugural committee.
Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to an FEC enforcement action, criminal prosecution, or both.
ZRX1200 Offline
#153 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 55,006
Opel someone I know just confirmed it.... I don’t have DIRECT KNOWLEDGE but I know a guy so it counts just the same. Al said so.
delta1 Offline
#154 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 25,779
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Vice presidents obviously can... and have... and bragged about it... and then gone on to run for president...

so ya, it'd be that word again to think the president can't do something the vice president (and 2020 dem nominee) did like 3 years ago...


There is something fishy smelling and untoward looking about the Biden Ukraine deal...

the GOP was always looking for ways to smack down the Obama presidency, and they were aware of this at the time....and didn't pursue it....why?


frankj1 Offline
#155 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
it's cool to root root root for the home team, but eventually one team wins based on the real score. and all scores are now verified by instant replay review.
so no one can whine anymore.

so much misinformation and assumption based on hatred and praying for veracity of editorialized info in this thread it's laughable.

can't anyone just wait a little?



frankj1 Offline
#156 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
delta1 wrote:
There is something fishy smelling and untoward looking about the Biden Ukraine deal...

the GOP was always looking for ways to smack down the Obama presidency, and they were aware of this at the time....and didn't pursue it....why?



cuz when they were in control of Congress, they got their answer back then...
Al, how many are still insisting that there has never been proof of birth?
It's a Trump M.O.
I'm still waiting for him to tell me how Cruz' father killed JFK.

and I'm not planning on ever voting for Biden for anything.
victor809 Offline
#157 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,819
Honestly don't care about Biden... He shouldn't be running... He's too old. But Delta's point is pretty damning... This isn't new. The Republicans could have looked into this when they had control.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#158 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
victor809 wrote:
Honestly don't care about Biden... He shouldn't be running... He's too old. But Delta's point is pretty damning... This isn't new. The Republicans could have looked into this when they had control.

Well according to tw that would be some kinda violation or something... You're not allowed to investigate or even ask to have your political rivals investigated...

Real question is, why was this not a problem to the dems then, when it was one of their own, but suddenly is now, when it's a guy they've been trying to impeach from day one of his presidency... Curiouser and curiouser...
frankj1 Offline
#159 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Well according to tw that would be some kinda violation or something... You're not allowed to investigate or even ask to have your political rivals investigated...

Real question is, why was this not a problem to the dems then, when it was one of their own, but suddenly is now, when it's a guy they've been trying to impeach from day one of his presidency... Curiouser and curiouser...

what I think you've missed here re: Biden is not that he's just a rival like say Pelosi, but an actual candidate opposing Trump, or potentially opposing in an upcoming election.

Seeking the assistance of, or accepting unsolicited offer from a foreign government to help shape an election without reporting it is sort of how all Trump's problems began.

But taking it even a step further, using one's power of office to initiate investigations against one's rivals is kind of Putin-esque. Or worse. No matter if it's done by the home team or the hated Yankees (picked them at random)

I'm not a Biden supporter (was 13 years ago though) and I wish he'd never begun this candidacy, and I may have read the timelines incorrectly but it seems he was representing pretty much the entire free world when his boss sent him to Ukraine something like two dozen times, and that (here's where I may have messed up the timeline) the investigation into Hunter had already been halted by Ukraine before Biden's tough guy act...so that would mean he did not use the withholding of funds to help his son but to get rid of the guy all free nations wanted out. After Hunter's case was dropped.

Not sure if it can be connected that Trump's unilateral but brief withholding of Congress approved aid was for personal gain, but following that with a burial of the communications (some say cover up) is either damning or stupid. Or both.

Still may not lead to impeachment. Censure, perhaps. Embarrassing, but won't tear apart a divided nation even further.

I'm STILL Biden my time.
rfenst Online
#160 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 33,726
ZRX1200 wrote:
How about that fact that it’s hearsay the “whistleblower” wasn’t even listening to the conversation.....


Hearsay is NOT inadmissable. There are something like 30 exceptions. Sharp lawyers know how to use the exceptions better than most judges do.

delta1 Offline
#161 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 25,779
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Well according to tw that would be some kinda violation or something... You're not allowed to investigate or even ask to have your political rivals investigated...

Real question is, why was this not a problem to the dems then, when it was one of their own, but suddenly is now, when it's a guy they've been trying to impeach from day one of his presidency... Curiouser and curiouser...



because Biden wasn't leveraging the aid for gain against a political opponent in a US election...

now, if he'd asked for the photos of Trump getting pizzed on by several Ukrainian nymphs for an October surprise....
frankj1 Offline
#162 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
delta1 wrote:


now, if he'd asked for the photos of Trump getting pizzed on by several Ukrainian nymphs for an October surprise....

I just googled them...take your pick
rfenst Online
#163 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 33,726
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I won't call the article you linked to retarded, but only cuz we're not supposed to use that word anymore...


First line of the article:

"Mr Trump has alleged, without evidence, that Mr Biden pressed for the sacking of a Ukrainian prosecutor to protect a business that employed his son."


And here's what Joe "I'm coming for your children" Biden had to say:

So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor (the guy actively investigating the company Hunter biden actively worked for) is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a b-tch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.


Bidden, in my opinion, should be in trouble for what he did. I don't think he will get the nomination in large part due to this or the fact that Bidden just may be lying/embelishing, much like Trump does...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#164 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
frankj1 wrote:
what I think you've missed here re: Biden is not that he's just a rival like say Pelosi, but an actual candidate opposing Trump, or potentially opposing in an upcoming election.

Seeking the assistance of, or accepting unsolicited offer from a foreign government to help shape an election without reporting it is sort of how all Trump's problems began.

But taking it even a step further, using one's power of office to initiate investigations against one's rivals is kind of Putin-esque. Or worse. No matter if it's done by the home team or the hated Yankees (picked them at random)

I'm not a Biden supporter (was 13 years ago though) and I wish he'd never begun this candidacy, and I may have read the timelines incorrectly but it seems he was representing pretty much the entire free world when his boss sent him to Ukraine something like two dozen times, and that (here's where I may have messed up the timeline) the investigation into Hunter had already been halted by Ukraine before Biden's tough guy act...so that would mean he did not use the withholding of funds to help his son but to get rid of the guy all free nations wanted out. After Hunter's case was dropped.

Not sure if it can be connected that Trump's unilateral but brief withholding of Congress approved aid was for personal gain, but following that with a burial of the communications (some say cover up) is either damning or stupid. Or both.

Still may not lead to impeachment. Censure, perhaps. Embarrassing, but won't tear apart a divided nation even further.

I'm STILL Biden my time.

understand what you're saying but completely disagree...

labels like putinesque mean very little to me - unless we're talking about the perpensity of soviet dictators to murder people who disagree with them... that's reality... they don't ask their friends to track down the truth on their adversaries so they can use it in a television ad...

"Seeking the assistance of, or accepting unsolicited offer from a foreign government to help shape an election..." - the truth should mean more to us... maybe it used to, maybe it didn't, I honestly don't know... but all of the "ya, but where the truth come from? how did that person get ahold of that truth?" stuff is nonsense... it's a preemptive "we definitely did something wrong and don't want to admit it so lets shift focus" maneuver...

If Joe Biden is guilty of what he is accused of, I don't care if trump paid the iranians a quarter billion dollars of his own money to obtain that truth... why would that matter to anyone? And if there turns out to be no truth to the accusations, what harm was done exactly?
frankj1 Offline
#165 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
rfenst wrote:
Bidden, in my opinion, should be in trouble for what he did. I don't think he will get the nomination in large part due to this or the fact that Bidden just may be lying/embelishing, much like Trump does...

Biden is a bit like Trump in either purposely stating stuff incorrectly or simply being incorrect on facts and/or time and place.
He takes credit when not deserved and ...hey! Why aren't he and Trump BFF's?

Not a good candidate.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#166 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
rfenst wrote:
Bidden, in my opinion, should be in trouble for what he did. I don't think he will get the nomination in large part due to this or the fact that Bidden just may be lying/embelishing, much like Trump does...

well he won't be in trouble and he already is as good as the dem nom... sanders has no chance and wall street has made very clear it won't be pocahontus...
frankj1 Offline
#167 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
opelmanta1900 wrote:
understand what you're saying but completely disagree...

labels like putinesque mean very little to me - unless we're talking about the perpensity of soviet dictators to murder people who disagree with them... that's reality... they don't ask their friends to track down the truth on their adversaries so they can use it in a television ad...

"Seeking the assistance of, or accepting unsolicited offer from a foreign government to help shape an election..." - the truth should mean more to us... maybe it used to, maybe it didn't, I honestly don't know... but all of the "ya, but where the truth come from? how did that person get ahold of that truth?" stuff is nonsense... it's a preemptive "we definitely did something wrong and don't want to admit it so lets shift focus" maneuver...

If Joe Biden is guilty of what he is accused of, I don't care if trump paid the iranians a quarter billion dollars of his own money to obtain that truth... why would that matter to anyone? And if there turns out to be no truth to the accusations, what harm was done exactly?

there's a huge downside and risk to opening that door.
I don't have the same faith in Trump using wisdom and and truth as reasons to destroy anyone in his way.
And so I'm willing to let laws guide us.

Do you have a plan to deal with wildly false accusations that would require the same due diligence to uncover?
Should we chase Trump's accusations that Cruz' father killed Kennedy?

Are you sure that it is as simple for you as what if Biden is guilty? Would you stand by this method you support against office holders in whom you believe? Cuz you do hate Biden, no?

And Putin types don't simply kill opponents anymore. They levy charges and arrest "dissidents" as needed.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#168 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
delta1 wrote:
because Biden wasn't leveraging the aid for gain against a political opponent in a US election...

now, if he'd asked for the photos of Trump getting pizzed on by several Ukrainian nymphs for an October surprise....

right... biden was leveraging the aid against an ally for financial gain... you seem to have your priorities out of whack...

also, we know FOR FACT that biden threatened to withhold aid to the ukraine if they didn't do what he said... we know that FOR FACT... we can disagree on his motives, but we know FOR FACT that he threatened to withhold aid in order to force the ukrainian governments hand on something that was absolutely none of our business...

frankj1 Offline
#169 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
opelmanta1900 wrote:
understand what you're saying but completely disagree...

labels like putinesque mean very little to me - unless we're talking about the perpensity of soviet dictators to murder people who disagree with them... that's reality... they don't ask their friends to track down the truth on their adversaries so they can use it in a television ad...

"Seeking the assistance of, or accepting unsolicited offer from a foreign government to help shape an election..." - the truth should mean more to us... maybe it used to, maybe it didn't, I honestly don't know... but all of the "ya, but where the truth come from? how did that person get ahold of that truth?" stuff is nonsense... it's a preemptive "we definitely did something wrong and don't want to admit it so lets shift focus" maneuver...

If Joe Biden is guilty of what he is accused of, I don't care if trump paid the iranians a quarter billion dollars of his own money to obtain that truth... why would that matter to anyone? And if there turns out to be no truth to the accusations, what harm was done exactly?

you know the answer to that...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#170 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
frankj1 wrote:
there's a huge downside and risk to opening that door.
I don't have the same faith in Trump using wisdom and and truth as reasons to destroy anyone in his way.
And so I'm willing to let laws guide us.


What? What's the huge downside? bunch of truth that no one wanted out suddenly gets out?

frankj1 wrote:
Do you have a plan to deal with wildly false accusations that would require the same due diligence to uncover?
Should we chase Trump's accusations that Cruz' father killed Kennedy?


it is a preposterous assertion on your part that accusations without base or merit should be investigated... common sense should prevail in these situations... like when you have a guy bragging about committing the act that is alleged to have been corrupt, you investigate...

when you hear from a guy who heard from a girl he likes that the she heard the president said something to the president of another country... you feel silly reading that crap yet? pops taught me in 5th grade to stay outta that drama and I do...

frankj1 wrote:
Are you sure that it is as simple for you as what if Biden is guilty? Would you stand by this method you support against office holders in whom you believe? Cuz you do hate Biden, no?

hate's a strong word... I strongly dislike politicians... so ya, march em all to the gallows and unhook em if their names are cleared...

frankj1 wrote:
And Putin types don't simply kill opponents anymore. They levy charges and arrest "dissidents" as needed.


still nowhere near what's going on here... unless, of course, biden is guilty, ends up charged and arrested... in which case I will restate, the truth should matter more to us...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#171 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
frankj1 wrote:
you know the answer to that...

honestly? what we both know is that the result is the same whether he's guilty or not... the left supports him, the right wants him crucified, and nothing ever comes of any of it...
victor809 Offline
#172 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,819
I'm not sure where identifying (correctly OR incorrectly) a crime performed by someone else suddenly means we have to stop looking into potential crimes committed by the first person....

That seems to be the modus operandi though....
opelmanta1900 Offline
#173 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
victor809 wrote:
I'm not sure where identifying (correctly OR incorrectly) a crime performed by someone else suddenly means we have to stop looking into potential crimes committed by the first person....

That seems to be the modus operandi though....

I don't think anyone is coming close to suggesting that... what is being said is that if it wasn't a crime 3 years ago for the democratic vice president it shouldn't be a crime today for the republican president... seems simple...
victor809 Offline
#174 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,819
Two separate actions that both need to be judged on their individual merits. I believe the Biden one was investigated already... If it wasn't, then investigate it. Similarly investigate trumpenfurher. Two similar crimes can have two very different outcomes... Hell, from a practical standpoint, if you and I both kill someone, but I don't get convicted of it because I was smart enough to hide enough evidence, and you were dumb enough to have your lawyer describe what you did on national news.... Does that mean you should get off?

opelmanta1900 Offline
#175 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
gotta be a better way to phrase that...
victor809 Offline
#176 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,819
...... I'm not gonna kinkshame you.
delta1 Offline
#177 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 25,779
opelmanta1900 wrote:
right... biden was leveraging the aid against an ally for financial gain... you seem to have your priorities out of whack...

also, we know FOR FACT that biden threatened to withhold aid to the ukraine if they didn't do what he said... we know that FOR FACT... we can disagree on his motives, but we know FOR FACT that he threatened to withhold aid in order to force the ukrainian governments hand on something that was absolutely none of our business...



re-read the context of what was happening in Ukraine at the time...a revolution was underway for power in Ukraine...the Russians had recently annexed Crimea, an important port for the economy of Ukraine ...the G8 expelled Russia because of this...Russian influence in Ukraine was on the rise...

the entire Western world was concerned that cronies of deposed PM Yanukovych, who fled to Russia, was acting against the will of the people ... the Ukrainian prosecutor, Shokin, who was charged with preventing corruption was turning a blind eye, essentially giving the country over to corruption...

Biden was speaking on behalf of not just the US, but the entire western democratic world, when he threatened to withhold Ukrainian aid, since there was no guarantee it would not fall into corrupt hands...by then the investigation into Burisma, Hunter Biden's company had been over for more than a year with no evidence that Joe Biden's son was involved in any corruption...

very different motive between Biden's and Trump's similar behavior...

just a thought....Trump's threat to withhold military aid would jeopardize US interests in helping Ukraine ward off Russian backed rebels who are still fighting the democratically elected govt., and is antithetical to US foreign policy to support Ukraine's military to fight off Russian aggression...

my opinion: no surprise that Trump would do anything that may help Russia in Ukraine...secondary motive? wonder if there's a hidden transcript of a phone conversation between Trump and Putin, where Vlad suggests Trump should end aid to Ukraine to further Russia's effort to regain control of that country
frankj1 Offline
#178 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 38,706
opelmanta1900 wrote:
gotta be a better way to phrase that...

love it.
needed a laugh.
DrafterX Offline
#179 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
So now we want to hear the Putin calls... very predictable... fishing... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#180 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 25,779
you mean...you don't? really...


in this age of open govt and transparency........and in light of Trump's public bowing and bend-overs to Putin?
RMAN4443 Offline
#181 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,222
https://www.whitehousedossier.com/2012/06/20/obama-bowed-eight-times-president/


Think


https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2012/08/27/exclusive-next-seal-ad-excoriates-obama-for-bowing-to-foreign-leaders/
DrafterX Offline
#182 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
We should release the Obama/ Iran calls too... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#183 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,222
https://youtu.be/XsFR8DbSRQE


While President Obama was taking part in a global nuclear security summit in South Korea, he was caught on tape asking for Russian President Dmitry Medvedev for "space." "This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility," Obama implored. Obama assured the departing Russian President he will have the "flexibility" required to deal with missile defense issues after the 2012 presidential election.

Not talking
DrafterX Offline
#184 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
Racist... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#185 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,222
I'm sorry, it's those pesky facts, not really my fault.....Anxious
rfenst Online
#186 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 33,726
RMAN4443 wrote:
https://youtu.be/XsFR8DbSRQE


While President Obama was taking part in a global nuclear security summit in South Korea, he was caught on tape asking for Russian President Dmitry Medvedev for "space." "This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility," Obama implored. Obama assured the departing Russian President he will have the "flexibility" required to deal with missile defense issues after the 2012 presidential election.

Not talking

I'd love to read that statement. Got a transcript or tape.
RMAN4443 Offline
#187 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,222
rfenst wrote:
I'd love to read that statement. Got a transcript or tape.

there is a youtube addy in my post.....


I did find this , don't know if it's helpful or not....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclear-summit-obama-medvedev-idUSBRE82P0JI20120326
Speyside Offline
#188 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
Maybe we should subpoena Obama's kindergarten finger paintings too. Those would be equally relevant to the orange morons presidency. Could any of you cons try to add some relevancy about Trumps actions instead of deflecting with irrelevant nonsense? Here is a hint. Try actually talking about Trumps presidency and actions. He is president, Obama is retired, so is Hillary. Though I did hear in second grade Hillary got more gold stars than anyone else. Maybe that would help Trump with his degradation of the Kahn family. Wait, that's a non starter, Hillary never was technically president. You only act like she was. But Bill prolly stole lunch money in 5th grade. I mean he used to be heavy, so he had to, right? And he was impeached for lying to congress about hummers. That's way worse than trying to influence a foreign country in a way that could have been detrimental to national security. Oh wait, if true that would be treason. So definatly lying about hummers should be another ongoing deflection point of yours.
DrafterX Offline
#189 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
If you think all Bill got was hummers you're mistaken... wimmens don't require an abortion from giving hummers... Mellow
Speyside Offline
#190 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
Get your facts straight idiot. She was now working at the Pentagon and had an affair with a coworker. Do you have anything else idiotic and wrong to say? Or have you hit your daily quota of dumb? Or are you saying if Clinton had gotten her pregnant, which he did not, that would be as bad if Trump has committed treason, which we don't know one way or the other. And if you trust Trump and the white house to send out an unadulterated transcript then you are dumber than I thought.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#191 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,742
Speyside wrote:
Maybe we should subpoena Obama's kindergarten finger paintings too.

Do they even have finger paints in Kenya?
Speyside Offline
#192 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
Duh, Henna.
Speyside Offline
#193 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
What's the matter Drafter, no other deflections? Oh, rather hard to do after being caught lying. Better call Rush, he'll know what to do.
DrafterX Offline
#194 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
Well, that's what I heard.... no different than anything being said about Trump right now..

And she supposedly had this affair and then went back to Bill.. ya right... Not talking
rfenst Online
#195 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 33,726
The impeachment of Bill Clinton was for "high crimes and misdemeanors", subsequently detailed in two articles of impeachment. The specific charges against the president were lying under oath and obstruction of justice, charges that stemmed from a sexual harassment lawsuit filed against Clinton by Paula Jones.

Wikepedia
DrafterX Offline
#196 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
Ya..!! Mad
Speyside Offline
#197 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
My bad I was wrong about the specific charge. Doesn't change the fact that idiots are compairing irrelevant issues, ancient history, and lesser offenses to Trumps doing, if he did it. Drafter just proved my point. Stop the conservative whining for goodness sake. Man up and be honest. The potential charges against Trump get worse as time goes on.
DrafterX Offline
#198 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
You had a point..?? I thought you were just repeating the liberal media... Mellow
Speyside Offline
#199 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 12,490
Yah, somebody like you would. Critical thinking isn't for you.
DrafterX Offline
#200 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 95,094
I'm thinking common sense isn't for you.... Mellow
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