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How much social aid is appropriate?
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tweoijfoi Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 1:13 AM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
Premise: If you were the super-president and could choose how much aid to provide to whatever groups you wanted, how much and to whom would you distribute aid?

Me: (off the top of my head) Basically begins as unemployment benefits and slowly drops over time.

Months 0-2 - 100% of living expenses
Months 2-4 - 80% of living expenses
Months 4-8 - 60% of living expenses
Months 8-12 - 50% of living expenses
You get the idea. Slowly drops from there until none provided after 2 years. Living expenses are calculated by the average cost of living in your county, but cannot exceed the 80% percentile for county CoL within the state)

This will provide benefits to those who are out of work and trying to find work, but obviously provides incentive for working over not working as there is no endless welfare.

I'm sure there is a million reasons to find exception but whatever.

What are you ideas?
calavera Offline
#2 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 7:15 AM EST
Joined: 01-26-2002
Posts: 1,868
I believe that each individual is ultimately responsible for themselves, so I do not believe in the validity of any social programs.

If you don't work, you don't eat.

If there are people without jobs and you must give them money, then I would do it like this.

You come into the employment center. You are assigned a job for the day. You would be doing things like cleaning trash out of ditches, sorting recyclables, maintenance at the sewage lagoon, working on the garbage truck, cleaning bathrooms in public buildings, etc. All the crappy jobs that we have miscellaneous public employees doing now. You are supervised by public employees that are currently doing those jobs (there would obviously be a decrease in the number of public employees as you only need so many supervisors).

If you have kids, you bring them with and they go to the daycare center, where other people who are without jobs are employed watching the kids. Other people are "working" by being cooks or whatever and preparing meals that will be eaten by the kids and workers. No fast food, no pizza, no soda just nutritious foods.

At the end of the day you get paid for the hours of work you put in that day.

Come back the next day and repeat until you get a real job.

Problem solved.





J
drywalldog Offline
#3 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 7:48 AM EST
Joined: 06-19-2007
Posts: 5,536
Wow, you got all the answers. The only problem is that you don't have the jobs for these people to work at, so that they won't starve to death, under the conditions you set. What the hell you gonna do with all the dead bodies, oh I guess some of the starving could be paid to dig a big hole to bury them in. All over thye country, every time a job opens up there are hundreds of people applying for it, and not getting the job. Are they all deadbeats too? The only way you will ever know about it is if you are in line yourself, I know, that will never happen- right?
HockeyDad Offline
#4 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 8:18 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,119
"Let them eat cake" ~ Michelle Obama
drywalldog Offline
#5 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 9:11 AM EST
Joined: 06-19-2007
Posts: 5,536
They're having cake on the food line again, I'd better get there before it's all gone.
wheelrite Offline
#6 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 9:27 AM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
There are jobs out there.It may not be a job you want to do.

No work is beneath anyone,,,

If you have to flip burgers at night and clean toilets during the day,that's what you do instead of welfare.

Imho,
Welfare is for people who are really deeply in need.Not for someone who feels they are too good for a particular job..


wheel,
dpnewell Offline
#7 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 10:54 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2009
Posts: 7,491
drywalldog wrote:
What the hell you gonna do with all the dead bodies?


SOLENT GREEN? Also solves the hunger problem.
VaMtnMan Offline
#8 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 11:08 AM EST
Joined: 06-25-2007
Posts: 3,743
So since Drywalldog didn't offer any suggestions, I guess he is all for 100% for everyone who doesn't feel like working.
Sorry, but I see alot of Help Wanted adds all over the place. But since they are lower wage jobs, people don't want to work there. I am self employed, there is no help for me if I don't have work. Believe me, there has been weeks where I have had almost no work. You will never catch me on the government welfare roll. I learned at an early age, that sometimes you have to do something you don't want to do, if you want to survive.
I say, if you aren't working, and want to get a check from the government for unemployement, then you need to be doing something. I say bring back the "Civilian Conservation Corps" that President Roosevelt started. Any able body person in order to get a check, must work here 4 out of 5 days a week. The 5th day, should be spent in job training, or out interviewing for jobs. I think we could put people to work building parks, trails, ballfields and other project that would be put to use by the public. I wouldn't have a time frame for participating, I think until you found work, you should be able to take part and get a check.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps
donutboy2000 Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 11:42 AM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Karl Marx
borndead1 Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,215
I would tend to agree with calavera's and VaMtnMan's ideas, but even tweoijfoi's idea is leagues better than what we have now.
drywalldog Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 06-19-2007
Posts: 5,536
Vamtnman- first of all I didn't say I have the answers to the question of unemployment. In my neighborhood it is around 13%. I know people who have worked for the last 20 years in construction, every day, every week, every year. My problem is with the know it alls on here that think because someone is outa work, it's be they want to be. They must also want to lose their house and cars too.
On the other hand, I do like your idea, but most of the right would rather starve out the working class, than come up with any real solutions.
jpotts Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Oct 23 2010, 3:51 PM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
drywalldog wrote:
Vamtnman- first of all I didn't say I have the answers to the question of unemployment. In my neighborhood it is around 13%. I know people who have worked for the last 20 years in construction, every day, every week, every year. My problem is with the know it alls on here that think because someone is outa work, it's be they want to be. They must also want to lose their house and cars too.
On the other hand, I do like your idea, but most of the right would rather starve out the working class, than come up with any real solutions.



I dunno about that. Idi Amin Jr. and the Democrats seems to be doing a whole lotta staving-out of people all on their own.

After all, when you're spending money you ain't got in the first place to pay the living expenses of people you've personally thrown out of their jobs, at one point or another the Ponzi scheme is going to collapse.

Then again, destroying the entire country so that a few people don't lose their homes and cars is obviously preferrable to the alternative.

Leftist liberals are sub-human.
calavera Offline
#13 Posted: Sun, Oct 24 2010, 9:06 AM EST
Joined: 01-26-2002
Posts: 1,868
drywalldog wrote:
Wow, you got all the answers. The only problem is that you don't have the jobs for these people to work at, so that they won't starve to death, under the conditions you set. What the hell you gonna do with all the dead bodies, oh I guess some of the starving could be paid to dig a big hole to bury them in. All over thye country, every time a job opens up there are hundreds of people applying for it, and not getting the job. Are they all deadbeats too? The only way you will ever know about it is if you are in line yourself, I know, that will never happen- right?



Dude, save your vitriol for someone who cares. There are jobs everywhere. As has already been pointed out, they are not the desirable jobs or glamorous jobs, but they are there.

If someone wouldn't take a job because they feel that it is beneath them and would rather go on welfare, screw that. If you can't take care of yourself, that is too bad. There is nothing that says that society has any obligation to take care of you.

I will never be "in the line" as you put it, because I will always have a job and will always take care of myself. I don't expect a dime from the government or from you.

The current statistics for my county are as follows:

9000 available jobs/positions
3000 people collecting unemployment/welfare

How the f**k does that work?

Nothing makes me more angry than a person who feels that they are owed something, or that feels that they are entitled to something. You are entitled to the freedom to go out and make your own way, nothing else.





J
donutboy2000 Offline
#14 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:28 AM EST
Joined: 11-20-2001
Posts: 25,000
drywalldog wrote:
Vamtnman- first of all I didn't say I have the answers to the question of unemployment. In my neighborhood it is around 13%. I know people who have worked for the last 20 years in construction, every day, every week, every year. My problem is with the know it alls on here that think because someone is outa work, it's be they want to be. They must also want to lose their house and cars too.
On the other hand, I do like your idea, but most of the right would rather starve out the working class, than come up with any real solutions.



Comrade, are you still on the dole?
rfenst Offline
#15 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 7:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,251
1. Orlando's unemployment rate is approximately 14%. The Sunday paper only has a page or two of job listings, predominatley requiring a professional degree in specific, highly technical fields like water-turbine engineering, laser optics/guidance, and computer game design/programming. The scant few other listings now pay minimum wage for what used to be $14-15/hour before the recession. If the people who got laid off from those jobs are lucky enough to find a minimum wage job to apply for, I am told there are 20-30 other applicants to compete against.

2. The absolute most that Florida unemployment pays is $275 per week BEFORE TAXES!

3. "The claimant must also be able to work, available for work and actively seeking employment to be eligible for benefits. Agency regulations provide that to be considered available for work a claimant must actively seek work in a manner customary to the occupation in which work is being sought. The claimant must be without undue restrictions that lessen the chance of becoming re-employed at the earliest possible time. All claimants are required to keep a record of their work search contacts while receiving unemployment compensation benefits. This information must be recorded on the Work Search form (Form AWI-UC 20A) which is available on line http://www.floridajobs.org/Unemployment/uc_claims_app_forms.html and is also provided in the Florida Unemployment Compensation Program Booklet which is sent to all claimants. Individuals claim weeks of unemployment on a bi-weekly schedule and answer questions concerning their availability for work. At any time during the claims series, the claimant may be requested to submit their list of job contacts"
chiefburg Offline
#16 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 9:11 AM EST
Joined: 01-31-2005
Posts: 7,384
I live in SoCal and I'm always seeing signs for people to work in the fields. Of course, those jobs are backbreaking, sweaty, and very hard work and most people don't have the desire to do those jobs - hence the migrant farm workers. I think job openings vary greatly from place to place and state to state. As such, I don't have the expertise to really comment one way or another.

I stood in the unemployment line once back in 1983 due to economic circumstances. I was in Oregon and the Spotted Owl put an end to logging and the town I was in lost its Weyerhouser mill and the pretty much destroyed the economy for quite some time. When i was standing in the unemployment line, it was one of the worst moments of my life since I had worked since I was a kid doing something (paper route, mowing lawns, painting, bagging groceries, etc). For some reason, I was very uncomfortable and felt nausiated just standing in line and I swore I wouldn't do it again. So, I went down to the recruiters and joined the military - the very last job I ever wanted to do. I had no desire to be part of the military because my brother came back from Vietnam a shell of a man. But, I had a wife and two kids and they had to eat so I sucked it up and enlisted. Sometimes desperate people do what they don't want to do just to survive.

I'm not bragging and I'm not complaining. I'm just stating my experience and how it affected my life. I know I could go out right now and get a job if I wanted. It may not be my dream job and it probably won't be a lot of fun. But, I'm willing to bet I can find work doing something because I'm not afraid to do anything (except the Deadliest Catch - I can't do that......).

I hope the best for everyone......
tailgater Offline
#17 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 9:48 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
drywalldog wrote:
Wow, you got all the answers. The only problem is that you don't have the jobs for these people to work at, so that they won't starve to death, under the conditions you set. What the hell you gonna do with all the dead bodies, oh I guess some of the starving could be paid to dig a big hole to bury them in. All over thye country, every time a job opens up there are hundreds of people applying for it, and not getting the job. Are they all deadbeats too? The only way you will ever know about it is if you are in line yourself, I know, that will never happen- right?



Actually, the jobs would exist under a "workfare" type program.
Face it, the government is already paying the people to essentially do nothing. Under workfare, the same dollars would be paid but the poeple would be earning it by doing necessary jobs that we don't have the money for now (BECAUSE of the money going into social programs).

I'm a firm believer in a strong government that assists the individual to get back on their feet.
I don't subscribe, however, to the welfare lifestyle.
And two years on unemployment is welfare.

With workfare, our parks and streets would be clean.
Our buildings would be well maintained.
Daycare could be provided for those with young children.
Food could be cooked and served for the working class who still can't afford a healthy meal.

I don't know why it is perceived to be "evil" to expect people to work in order to receive assistance.
tweoijfoi Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 10:30 AM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
I like your idea, tailgater. Truely our streets would be spotless.

Why don't we already have workfare?
jackconrad Offline
#19 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 12:24 PM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
(0(0)
(=..’=
(( ))))
(")(")

SLAVE LABORIST !
calavera Offline
#20 Posted: Tue, Oct 26 2010, 11:16 PM EST
Joined: 01-26-2002
Posts: 1,868
tweoijfoi wrote:
I like your idea, tailgater. Truely our streets would be spotless.

Why don't we already have workfare?


Because politicians prefer to have as many people on the dole and under their thumbs as possible. The last thing they want is for people to begin working and earn their way, because then they may start to develop self respect. Then they will start to question why they are in the position they are in and why things are so bad. Then they will realize it is because of the federal rulers wanting it that way, and they may try to throw off the yoke of oppression.

Just hypothesizing of course.



J
tweoijfoi Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2010, 1:01 AM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
calavera wrote:
Because politicians prefer to have as many people on the dole and under their thumbs as possible. The last thing they want is for people to begin working and earn their way, because then they may start to develop self respect. Then they will start to question why they are in the position they are in and why things are so bad. Then they will realize it is because of the federal rulers wanting it that way, and they may try to throw off the yoke of oppression.

Just hypothesizing of course.



J


Haha.

I don't think our politicians are pure evil. They probably have good things in mind... of course they don't pan out like they hope and the end result is a certain percentage of the population losing their will to work.
angus13 Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2010, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 03-17-2008
Posts: 3,995
Wrote out a nice long reply too all of this with my perspective on the ongoing situation, this discussion and my ordeals as being in the ranks of those being unemployed... hit the post button, got an error message, and poof, post disappeared into oblivion...Cursing, oh well, I thought it was a good read, but it hurts too much to try rewriting it (can only type for so long)... Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

happy smoking to you all...

Herfing
HockeyDad Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2010, 1:18 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,119
There are millions of "green" jobs on the way.
Kawak Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2010, 1:55 PM EST
Joined: 11-26-2007
Posts: 4,025
Whatever it is, it is not enough. There are people out there that can't afford to clean coffee pots or paint houses! Raise our taxes! Raise our taxes!
tweoijfoi Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2010, 9:48 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
angus13 wrote:
Wrote out a nice long reply too all of this with my perspective on the ongoing situation, this discussion and my ordeals as being in the ranks of those being unemployed... hit the post button, got an error message, and poof, post disappeared into oblivion...Cursing, oh well, I thought it was a good read, but it hurts too much to try rewriting it (can only type for so long)... Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

happy smoking to you all...

Herfing


I hate that... seems to happen (here and elsewhere) whenever you've made a long and thoughtful post. The computers! They are against us! Brick wall

If you feel up to it now, try typing at least part of it out, I'm interested to hear your point of view. Just copy your post before you post it so if it bugs out you can paste it back in.
gringococolo Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 6:49 AM EST
Joined: 02-04-2006
Posts: 4,626
Federal minimum wage $7.25. 40 hrs x $7.25 = $290. Minus taxes = (-7.65 % $22.18 Fica and $2 federal withholding bi-weekly, married) = $265.81 weekly in Florida.

Unemployment $275 per week - taxes ($23.03) = $251.96

Unemployment clearly pays more than minimum wage because no transportation costs are involved.

$265.81 x 52 = $13822.12 per year or $1151.84 a month. Half of that would go to rent in the cheapest place you could find. $500.00 a month to live on, pay gas, groceries, etc. I shop at the commissary (no cheaper place to buy good food) and my bill is $400 plus a month. Poor people can not afford to eat anything healthy. Why... government subsidies on farmers, excessive regulation, too much government. Hell, local farmers can't even sell goods because the GOVERNMENT is too busy "protecting" you.

There is a problem in America. I wish I had the answer. It sure as hell isn't wasting money by continually extending benefiits. It isn't raising the minimum wage, because people aren't willing to work for the minimum wage right now. The answer is less government regulation and waste.

If you are stupid to wash pesticides off your tomatoes, you deserve to die. My grandmother always grew her own vegetables with little or no pesticides, she scrubbed the heck out of them, I never got e-coli or poisoned.

Get the government out of our lives. Things will be better.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 6:55 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,389
gringococolo wrote:
Get the government out of our lives. Things will be better.



Oh, but that absolves personal responsibility! The victim mentality or the "I'm owed xxxxx" attitude that's prevalent in today's American society is thick. It won't be eradicated overnight.

People still think that government is some Santa Claus figure that gives them what they want and need. They need to get over it. The system is broke. Getting back to the Constitution is the ONLY way we fix this mess.

End the entitlements. Now. With extreme prejudice. There will be pain.
delarob Offline
#28 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 8:14 AM EST
Joined: 06-28-2001
Posts: 5,318
Being in the Social Services field I see both sides of the issue. Problem is there are more people who know how to work the system then there are who honestly just need a little help. Once you get the assistance, it's not hard to figure out that it's easy money and you don't really have to do much to stay on it for several years. Dumbasses think they can't be heard sitting in the waiting room but they tell each other how to lie and cheat. Specially the welfare jokers who have several children and change head of household every couple years to keep the checks rolling in . Then of course they get free child support for 18 + years depending on the states age of emancipation, free court filing, accounting etc.. it doesn't take long to see how it drags society down with no end in sight. And let's not even talk about illegals.

I started drafting something years ago that I never finished about states starting a program that not only gives people skilss, but utilizes the ones they have that helps not only the community, but gives back to the worker and creates employment. For example... There are far too many people rotting in prison that have construction skills. If you take the ones (non violent offenders of course) that want to work, put them through a state run program and have them start to work on houses in run down neighborhoods for people that can't afford private contractors, you start to improve some of the blighted areas. While working on these details, you earn good time against your sentence. After a certain number of houses lets say, you then earn credits for fixing up your own house. This process not only gives skills, but it would help you move into possible ownership of your own company or a good leg up on getting a job with cooperating private companies. Of course you could do this with a number of fields.
tailgater Offline
#29 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 8:41 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Until a long term solution can be formulated, there is an easy short term fix:

Enforce abuse with jail time.

Sure, many will say that we can't "afford" this.
But we're already paying to support these leaches, so why not dump them into a minimal security joint with no television (gasp!) and mandatory chain gang style street cleaning?

Let the welfare go to those who truly need and/or deserve the help.


This would also help change America's attitude towards the social systems.
We used to have empathy or even pity for those on welfare. We wanted to pick them up and keep them fed until they could get back on their feet.
Now we are angered by their sloth and irresponsible behavior.

We can still fix the system.
But until that time, let's punish those who abuse it.
tweoijfoi Offline
#30 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 5:56 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
delarob wrote:
Being in the Social Services field I see both sides of the issue. Problem is there are more people who know how to work the system then there are who honestly just need a little help. Once you get the assistance, it's not hard to figure out that it's easy money and you don't really have to do much to stay on it for several years. Dumbasses think they can't be heard sitting in the waiting room but they tell each other how to lie and cheat. Specially the welfare jokers who have several children and change head of household every couple years to keep the checks rolling in . Then of course they get free child support for 18 + years depending on the states age of emancipation, free court filing, accounting etc.. it doesn't take long to see how it drags society down with no end in sight. And let's not even talk about illegals.

I started drafting something years ago that I never finished about states starting a program that not only gives people skilss, but utilizes the ones they have that helps not only the community, but gives back to the worker and creates employment. For example... There are far too many people rotting in prison that have construction skills. If you take the ones (non violent offenders of course) that want to work, put them through a state run program and have them start to work on houses in run down neighborhoods for people that can't afford private contractors, you start to improve some of the blighted areas. While working on these details, you earn good time against your sentence. After a certain number of houses lets say, you then earn credits for fixing up your own house. This process not only gives skills, but it would help you move into possible ownership of your own company or a good leg up on getting a job with cooperating private companies. Of course you could do this with a number of fields.


I like your idea, delarob. We have so many people doing nothing, whether its on unemployment, in jail, or on welfare, and all around us there are so many things that need to be done.
wheelrite Offline
#31 Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010, 8:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
we should trade our dead Beats to Mexico for some hard working illegals...
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