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Last post 9 years ago by ah42266. 108 replies replies.
3 Pages<123>
Disappearing cigars
tonygraz Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,230
Gurkha new releases on CBID seem to be disappearing.
delta1 Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Routine downtime so they can do a group bonding exercise to come up with new names to call their cigars. They're pulling all old stock from the shelves so the old labels can be replaced with new ones. Today's Beauty will be tomorrow's Beast. Heard that on the street...
KingoftheCove Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,631
delta1 wrote:
Routine downtime so they can do a group bonding exercise to come up with new names to call their cigars. They're pulling all old stock from the shelves so the old labels can be replaced with new ones. Today's Beauty will be tomorrow's Beast. Heard that on the street...

OhMyGod


Puff_n_Stuff Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 08-27-2014
Posts: 2
midmofan wrote:
the Mothership


Hello, I am new here. Can you please explain this "mother ship" of which you speak?Unsure


earthson Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 01-30-2010
Posts: 217
The mothership is the CI website as opposed to this auction site, CBid.

CBid was nailed for selling fake Opus maduro recently, which is, oddly, right around the time Fuente pulled all of their products from the site. Coincidence?
yankeelawdog Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 09-24-2012
Posts: 44
That's disconcerting.
pfk985 Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2014
Posts: 49
Interesting news. Any comment from Cbid ?
pfk985 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 06-07-2014
Posts: 49
Interesting news. Any comment from Cbid ?
sd72 Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Weird that FUENTE would ship fake opus. General/swiss match surely wouldn't be buying off the secondary market and reselling.

Shame on you Arturo.
BuckyB93 Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,161
earthson wrote:
The mothership is the CI website as opposed to this auction site, CBid.

CBid was nailed for selling fake Opus maduro recently, which is, oddly, right around the time Fuente pulled all of their products from the site. Coincidence?


Not sure how much truth there is to this. Here's a thread on the rumors and hearsay and stuff.

https://cigarbid.com/Forum/c/posts/640227/Why-no-Fuentes-up-for-bid-
Homebrew Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2003
Posts: 11,885
QMPASH wrote:
One of these days San Lotanos will be priced out of the range of the average cigar smoker like Cubans and Davidoffs. Shame on you

****,
Most cubans are cheaper, than domestically available cigars, once you add domestic taxes.

Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)Beer
ah42266 Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 06-18-2013
Posts: 173
earthson wrote:
The mothership is the CI website as opposed to this auction site, CBid.

CBid was nailed for selling fake Opus maduro recently, which is, oddly, right around the time Fuente pulled all of their products from the site. Coincidence?


.....where is this info? Nailed by whom? What happened? I believe that is a LOAD OF HORSE SHAT!
http://www.cigarbid.com/...-Robusto-MADURO-Single/

.....here is a link discussing Opus Maduro.
http://lounge.cigarfamily.com/archive/index.php/t-247020.html
.....this idiot says it was fake. Ever think of maybe aging a stick??? The second Opus X Natural Double Corona (7.62"x49) I decellophaned and let age for 6 months tasted much better then the one I burned directly out of the cello.
http://www.stogiefriends.com/blog/1340/fopus-fake-opus-x-maduro-double-robusto/
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/counterfeit/view/id/15408
http://gartrader.com/index.php/gallery/image/839-opus-x-el-escorpion-maduro/
http://www.megalomaniac.com/~andrew/cigars/dr_fake_opus.pdf
http://gartrader.com/index.php/gallery/image/776-anejo-wrapped-opus-x-cigars/
http://gartrader.com/index.php/gallery/image/788-opus-x-maduro-robusto/
ZRX1200 Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
Part of the issue is Carlito said it was an event only size never produced in quantity (no maduro Opus are) and these just appeared at a few sites not just here. I don't have a dog in the fight as I won't buy any but there hasn't been a good explination and I'm not reading 16 links.
tonygraz Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,230
Haven't seen any Reconquistas lately on CBID, tho other Ava Marias are on regularly.
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
tonygraz wrote:
Haven't seen any Reconquistas lately on CBID, tho other Ava Marias are on regularly.


Funny you say that. I'm smoking one now. I was grabbing these up. Testing one out after a month. I am too impatientHerfing
opelmanta1900 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
ZRX1200 wrote:
Part of the issue is Carlito said it was an event only size never produced in quantity (no maduro Opus are) and these just appeared at a few sites not just here. I don't have a dog in the fight as I won't buy any but there hasn't been a good explination and I'm not reading 16 links.


what has trish said about this? anything?
KingoftheCove Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,631
Puffnstuff79 wrote:
Funny you say that. I'm smoking one now. I was grabbing these up. Testing one out after a month. I am too impatientHerfing

Well, do you think they're worth the coin?
ah42266 Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 06-18-2013
Posts: 173
Puffnstuff79 wrote:
Funny you say that. I'm smoking one now. I was grabbing these up. Testing one out after a month. I am too impatientHerfing


.....the 7"x48 Barbarosa is an excellent Habano smoke after a few months of naked aging. I have pinched 3 boxes over the past few months for $64, $58, and $52. Amazing.
Drool
Buckwheat Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Homebrew wrote:
****,
Most cubans are cheaper, than domestically available cigars, once you add domestic taxes.

Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)Beer


+1,000,000

And better in most cases (if you like the "Cuban Profile") Herfing
Stinkdyr Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2009
Posts: 9,948
cacman wrote:
Freakin noob!
There are already many great CC's that can be had for the same price or less than the price of a San Lotanos.



Jose L. Piedras


fog
99cobra2881 Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 11-19-2013
Posts: 2,472
Speaking of San Lotanos I ventured over to the mothership to pick up one of my favorite samplers. AJs kitchen sink sampler, but just like here they're no longer sold in that sampler either. Kitchen sink II it's called now, all the **** Lotanos are gone and in their place it's now chock full of Gurkhas. WTF? So very fn sad, so I said f em and I'm gonna get a box of RASS instead.
Cigar2014 Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 07-15-2014
Posts: 10
what happen to the Olivaios brand?
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
KingoftheCove wrote:
Well, do you think they're worth the coin?


How they're smoking now I wish they were being had for $6. With rest I think some of that sting at the end will settle down and make it a deserving $7-8 that I was paying. In B&M dollars I would put em (without coffin) at $11 and assume they'd keep selling. Add a buck for the coffin
Puffnstuff79 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2014
Posts: 4,752
99cobra2881 wrote:
Speaking of San Lotanos I ventured over to the mothership to pick up one of my favorite samplers. AJs kitchen sink sampler, but just like here they're no longer sold in that sampler either. Kitchen sink II it's called now, all the **** Lotanos are gone and in their place it's now chock full of Gurkhas. WTF? So very fn sad, so I said f em and I'm gonna get a box of RASS instead.


If say that's a healthy substitution. Herfing
joev Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2011
Posts: 8
I always thought it was funny that this place sold ten of thousands of DC anniversarios and Opus Maduros like it was going out of style. Members here aren't the brightest.

This forum is the the minor league of online forums. LMAO!!!!
8nthatk Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2014
Posts: 178
Stay Classy baby! ThumpUp
sd72 Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Is that the founder of CATS ? Lol.
tonygraz Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,230
joev wrote:
.... Members here aren't the brightest.

This forum is the the minor league of online forums. LMAO!!!!



We noticed that some of the new members have brought down the IQ average, and they also are trying hard to make the minors with their limited skills.
TheSmokensip Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 03-02-2013
Posts: 1,329
joev wrote:
I always thought it was funny that this place sold ten of thousands of DC anniversarios and Opus Maduros like it was going out of style. Members here aren't the brightest.

This forum is the the minor league of online forums. LMAO!!!!

Then go away genius.
QMPASH Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
Homebrew wrote:
****,
Most cubans are cheaper, than domestically available cigars, once you add domestic taxes.

Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)Beer


You're comparing apples to oranges. Many Cubans are machine-made cigars. If you subtract them from the equation, you are left with cigars that average somewhere around $30.00 a stick (I'm just estimating.) That's not even counting the Cohiba Behike which retails for something like $800 a stick. Top Cuban cigars retail way above $30. And, when you factor in the fact that most Cubans are small, by American standards, the prices are even more outrageous. Going back to cigars that are allowed to be sold in the United States, the only cigars that come to mind (I'm sure there are others) are Fuente and Padron that would make your allegation correct. Most cigar smokers in this country cannot afford these cigars on a regular basis and, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the average price paid by a cigar smoker in this country is $5.00 a stick or less. Boo hoo!
KingoftheCove Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,631
your "estimation" of $30/cigar is a bit high..........................................
earthson Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 01-30-2010
Posts: 217
QMPASH wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges. Many Cubans are machine-made cigars. If you subtract them from the equation, you are left with cigars that average somewhere around $30.00 a stick (I'm just estimating.) That's not even counting the Cohiba Behike which retails for something like $800 a stick. Top Cuban cigars retail way above $30. And, when you factor in the fact that most Cubans are small, by American standards, the prices are even more outrageous. Going back to cigars that are allowed to be sold in the United States, the only cigars that come to mind (I'm sure there are others) are Fuente and Padron that would make your allegation correct. Most cigar smokers in this country cannot afford these cigars on a regular basis and, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the average price paid by a cigar smoker in this country is $5.00 a stick or less. Boo hoo!


I'm guessing this is some kind of joke. Surely no one would invent this kind of information and expect people to believe it.
Oscar Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 09-12-2012
Posts: 3,169
I have deal for you! Only $28 a cigar!
dstieger Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
QMPASH wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges. Many Cubans are machine-made cigars. If you subtract them from the equation, you are left with cigars that average somewhere around $30.00 a stick (I'm just estimating.) That's not even counting the Cohiba Behike which retails for something like $800 a stick. Top Cuban cigars retail way above $30. And, when you factor in the fact that most Cubans are small, by American standards, the prices are even more outrageous. Going back to cigars that are allowed to be sold in the United States, the only cigars that come to mind (I'm sure there are others) are Fuente and Padron that would make your allegation correct. Most cigar smokers in this country cannot afford these cigars on a regular basis and, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the average price paid by a cigar smoker in this country is $5.00 a stick or less. Boo hoo!



what?
joev Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2011
Posts: 8
QMPASH wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges. Many Cubans are machine-made cigars. If you subtract them from the equation, you are left with cigars that average somewhere around $30.00 a stick (I'm just estimating.) That's not even counting the Cohiba Behike which retails for something like $800 a stick. Top Cuban cigars retail way above $30. And, when you factor in the fact that most Cubans are small, by American standards, the prices are even more outrageous. Going back to cigars that are allowed to be sold in the United States, the only cigars that come to mind (I'm sure there are others) are Fuente and Padron that would make your allegation correct. Most cigar smokers in this country cannot afford these cigars on a regular basis and, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the average price paid by a cigar smoker in this country is $5.00 a stick or less. Boo hoo!


This guy knows what he is talking about.

I retract my statement about the intelligence of this community.
TrishS@CigarBid Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 06-13-2001
Posts: 3,172
earthson wrote:
The mothership is the CI website as opposed to this auction site, CBid.

CBid was nailed for selling fake Opus maduro recently, which is, oddly, right around the time Fuente pulled all of their products from the site. Coincidence?


If this was really true, wouldn't charges be brought about against a company such as this? I would think that a brand as venerated as Fuente would do that to protect their name. But last I heard, that didn't happen. In fact, we have a pretty good relationship with them.

Maybe, just maybe, they removed ALL of their products from this auction site to protect their brand. Could that be it? Or does that blow up your conspiracy theory and therefore cannot be possible?

Earthson - I'm puzzled why you would purchase from a company that you feel is so unethical that a vendor would pull his products from their site? How do we remain the #1 premium cigar distributor if we're this unethical? It just doesn't make sense.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading this rumor. You've stated it on multiple threads and it really needs to stop.
joev Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2011
Posts: 8
TrishS@CigarBid wrote:
If this was really true, wouldn't charges be brought about against a company such as this? I would think that a brand as venerated as Fuente would do that to protect their name. But last I heard, that didn't happen. In fact, we have a pretty good relationship with them.

Maybe, just maybe, they removed ALL of their products from this auction site to protect their brand. Could that be it? Or does that blow up your conspiracy theory and therefore cannot be possible?

Earthson - I'm puzzled why you would purchase from a company that you feel is so unethical that a vendor would pull his products from their site? How do we remain the #1 premium cigar distributor if we're this unethical? It just doesn't make sense.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading this rumor. You've stated it on multiple threads and it really needs to stop.


You are a loyal employee Trish. I admire that.
Jay9Jay9Jay9 Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 09-24-2010
Posts: 151
QMPASH wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges. Many Cubans are machine-made cigars. If you subtract them from the equation, you are left with cigars that average somewhere around $30.00 a stick (I'm just estimating.) That's not even counting the Cohiba Behike which retails for something like $800 a stick. Top Cuban cigars retail way above $30. And, when you factor in the fact that most Cubans are small, by American standards, the prices are even more outrageous. Going back to cigars that are allowed to be sold in the United States, the only cigars that come to mind (I'm sure there are others) are Fuente and Padron that would make your allegation correct. Most cigar smokers in this country cannot afford these cigars on a regular basis and, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the average price paid by a cigar smoker in this country is $5.00 a stick or less. Boo hoo!


So much good material in this!!!! $800 per stick! :)



QMPASH Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
KingoftheCove wrote:
your "estimation" of $30/cigar is a bit high..........................................


Is it?? See the price list below. You can check out more on the web.


Cohiba Cuban Cigars ...A new brand of Cuban cigars which was introduced only in 1968, Cohiba quickly became the flagship brand of the Cuban cigar industry. Developed initially as a medium bodied protocol cigar for presentation only by officials of the Cuban government, Cohiba was marketed widely beginning in 1982. The initial sizes were the Lancero, the Corona Especiale and the Panetela, with the Esplendido, Robusto and Exquisito added in 1989. In 1992, in salute to the 500th anniversary of Columbus' discovery of the Caribbean, the Siglo series was introduced.

Box price per stick is $27.72 Length: 6 Ring Gauge: 38

Cohiba Corona Especiales BOX OF 25
$693.00

Qty:

Length: 6 Ring Gauge: 38

Cohiba Corona Especiales SINGLE
$34.65

Qty:
Box price per stick is $52.5 Length: 7 Ring Gauge: 47

Cohiba Esplendido BOX OF 25
$1,312.50

Qty:
Length: 7 Ring Gauge: 47

Cohiba Esplendido SINGLE
$65.63

Qty:
Box price per stick is $19.32 Length: 4 7/8 Ring Gauge: 36

Cohiba Exquisitos BOX OF 25
$483.00

Qty:
Length: 4 7/8 Ring Gauge: 36

Cohiba Exquisitos SINGLE
$24.15

Qty:

Box price per stick is $34.02 Length: 7 1/2 Ring Gauge: 38

Cohiba Lanceros BOX OF 25
$850.50

Qty:
Length: 7 1/2 Ring Gauge: 38

Cohiba Lanceros SINGLE
$42.53

Qty:

Box price per stick is $47.54 Length: 5 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 10
$475.44

Qty:

Box price per stick is $47.54 Length: 5 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 25
$1,188.60

Qty:
Length: 5 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios SINGLE
$59.43

Qty:

Box price per stick is $42.5 Length: 4 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 10
$425.04

Qty:

Box price per stick is $42.5 Length: 4 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 25
$1,062.60

Qty:

Length: 4 1/2 Ring Gauge: 52

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos SINGLE
$53.13

Qty:
Length: 6 1/8 Ring Gauge: 54

Cohiba Piramedes Extra SINGLE
$64.58


Qty:


Box price per stick is $21.84 Length: 4 3/8 Ring Gauge: 40

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 10
$218.40

Qty:
Box price per stick is $21.84 Length: 4 3/8 Ring Gauge: 40

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 25
$546.00

Qty:
Length: 4 3/8 Ring Gauge: 40

Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos SINGLE
$27.30

Qty:

Box price per stick is $14.53 Length: 4 1/2 Ring Gauge: 26

Cohiba Panatelas BOX OF 25
$363.30

horse Frying pan Brick wall Boo hoo!
QMPASH Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
Oscar wrote:
I have deal for you! Only $28 a cigar!

Okay, send me a box of Behikes.
dstieger Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Q.....what????
QMPASH Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
TrishS@CigarBid wrote:
If this was really true, wouldn't charges be brought about against a company such as this? I would think that a brand as venerated as Fuente would do that to protect their name. But last I heard, that didn't happen. In fact, we have a pretty good relationship with them.

Maybe, just maybe, they removed ALL of their products from this auction site to protect their brand. Could that be it? Or does that blow up your conspiracy theory and therefore cannot be possible?

Earthson - I'm puzzled why you would purchase from a company that you feel is so unethical that a vendor would pull his products from their site? How do we remain the #1 premium cigar distributor if we're this unethical? It just doesn't make sense.

And I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading this rumor. You've stated it on multiple threads and it really needs to stop.


Earthson doesn't check his facts. The truth is that another cigar auction, which I can't mention because of the rules, had their hands "slapped" by Fuente. It wasn't C-bid. Good for you Trish for calling this guy out. Herfing
Jay9Jay9Jay9 Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 09-24-2010
Posts: 151
1) You do realize that there are other brands of Cuban cigars than just Cohiba, right?

2) You need to find a better source for cigars!
QMPASH Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
Jay9Jay9Jay9 wrote:
So much good material in this!!!! $800 per stick! :)





It's true but they were "beaten" out by the Gurkha Black Dragon which, upon its original release, was selling for something like $1200 a cigar. And, they ain't even Cubans. OhMyGod
DrafterX Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I heard Clinton smokes those... Mellow
Jay9Jay9Jay9 Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 09-24-2010
Posts: 151
So I thought it would be fun to compare the prices that Q listed to some reputable online shops (and not the cheapest either)

Cohiba Corona Especiales BOX OF 25 $693.00 compared to $355.00
Cohiba Esplendido BOX OF 25 $1,312.50 compared to $650
Cohiba Exquisitos BOX OF 25 $483.00 compared to $230
Cohiba Lanceros BOX OF 25 $850.50 compared to $425
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 10 $475.44 compared to $225
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 25 $1,188.60 compared to $490
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 10 $425.04 compared to $199
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 25 $1,062.60 compared to $473
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 10 $218.40 compared to $125
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 25 $546.00 compared to $239

Cohiba Behike 52 Single $800 compared to $32

...must be fakes since they do not come in that fancy glass top box! :)
Oscar Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 09-12-2012
Posts: 3,169
Applause
wheelrite Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
TrishS@CigarBid wrote:
I have a crush on wheel. He has dreamy eyes !



oh my,,

wheel,,
joev Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2011
Posts: 8
QMPASH wrote:
Earthson doesn't check his facts. The truth is that another cigar auction, which I can't mention because of the rules, had their hands "slapped" by Fuente. It wasn't C-bid. Good for you Trish for calling this guy out. Herfing


Those guys at Cigar Family.com are real jerks. They told me something completely different. Cigar family sucks!!!
QMPASH Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 03-15-2011
Posts: 897
Jay9Jay9Jay9 wrote:
So I thought it would be fun to compare the prices that Q listed to some reputable online shops (and not the cheapest either)

Cohiba Corona Especiales BOX OF 25 $693.00 compared to $355.00
Cohiba Esplendido BOX OF 25 $1,312.50 compared to $650
Cohiba Exquisitos BOX OF 25 $483.00 compared to $230
Cohiba Lanceros BOX OF 25 $850.50 compared to $425
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 10 $475.44 compared to $225
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Genios BOX OF 25 $1,188.60 compared to $490
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 10 $425.04 compared to $199
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Magicos BOX OF 25 $1,062.60 compared to $473
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 10 $218.40 compared to $125
Cohiba Maduro 5 Series Secretos BOX OF 25 $546.00 compared to $239

Cohiba Behike 52 Single $800 compared to $32

...must be fakes since they do not come in that fancy glass top box! :)



A couple of things bother me about your list. First of all no sizes are mentioned. Secondly; what does "compared to" mean? Is the "compared to" price the price that they are actually selling the sticks at? Is this a one-time special or the price they normally sell these cigars at? And, if the "compared to" price is their actual selling price, they either may not be in business long or they are not as "reputable" as you may think. Take the 1st line. the Corona Especiales, for example. If $693 is the MSRP and assuming 40 percent is their markup, they are selling their sticks below the price they are paying at their distributor. The only other explanation is that these are phony MSRP's (not uncommon, I admit) which puts their reputability (?) in doubt. And, if that final line on the Behike is correct, they will have a lot of customers. Selling an $800 cigar for $32?? Never happen!!! Unsure
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