America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 7 years ago by DrafterX. 67 replies replies.
2 Pages12>
I really dislike labor unions
tailgater Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Got a robo-call the other day.
Local UAW is hosting a tele-town hall meeting with HRC.
Vote Hillary and we'll call back next week to "this number" so you can opt in.

No choice to opt out.
I redialed the number and it goes right to the recording I just listened to.

A. Why are they calling me?
B. Why don't they allow a simple means to opt out and get off their phone list?
C. Labor Unions suck anyhow. Probably got my number by mistake, since they're so incredibly inept at virtually everything else they do. I couldn't find the tele-town-hall meeting online, so they probably screwed that up too. Friggin pieces of sh*t who need to be propped up by their union so they can feel a sense of self worth.

Trade unions teach skills. They add value. Set standards. Maintain consistency within their respective industry.
Labor unions? A once-necessary tool that is now ruining our country, but nobody has the balls to say it because it would mean a failed election.











sd72 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Man I hope my union is a trade union. They sound pretty good, the other one sounds like a bunch of dopes.
banderl Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
Race to the bottom.
jjanecka Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
That's why I live in a right to work state. Bust that union **** up! They're worthless!
dharbolt Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
^^^ teachers, firefighters, police, worthless?
gummy jones Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
i think his comment was related to unions
bassman45 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 07-05-2009
Posts: 4,082
jjanecka wrote:
That's why I live in a right to work state. Bust that union **** up! They're worthless!


It's laughable what non-union drivers make here in illinois.Let's see,4 day workweek for me,guaranteed 10 hours (even if I work 6 hours),overtime after 10, don't have to contribute for my healthcare,5 weeks vacation,5 sick days...yeah unions suckSarcasm
gummy jones Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
and you cant see how the above is bad for the city/state in the long run?
detroit didnt see it either
neither did cali
heck neither did illinois
oh wait
dharbolt Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
gummy jones wrote:
i think his comment was related to unions


You can't call a thing worthless without implying the ingredients are also worthless
gummy jones Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
sure can

i can draw you up a recipe that proves it (to use your metaphor) in about 3 seconds
dharbolt Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 08-03-2013
Posts: 6,931
Lol I get your point.
ZRX1200 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
We shouldnt have public employee unions.
rumraider Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
While i agree that union leadership is generally crap, unions do at least give some balance to the system. Can you imagineif corporations were left without any check on their authority? Tradesman would be in the same class as illegals and the quality of work would drop along with safety standards as corps would be even more inclined to pay government to make laws hosing workers and consumers. Unions may be a necessary evil. Does anyone ever bitch about corporate welfare any more or do they just get a pass as "job creators"
tonygraz Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,173
Boy did that Union caller get a bad number - shades of Hope and Diller.
danmdevries Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,115
I'm jealous of my friends who work in union trades with their 8-10 hour days, overtime paid daily, doubletime holidays, tripletime holiday weekend/off shifts, paid medical benefits, etc. We got forced into 12 hour days (actually 13 with report/handoff time) last year. They've cut paid holidays, got rid of the 80hr/week cap, overtime paid over the pay period not per day so an 18 hour shift is all straight, and a full 1/4 of my income every week pays for craptastic medical insurance.
rumraider Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
danmdevries wrote:
I'm jealous of my friends who work in union trades with their 8-10 hour days, overtime paid daily, doubletime holidays, tripletime holiday weekend/off shifts, paid medical benefits, etc. We got forced into 12 hour days (actually 13 with report/handoff time) last year. They've cut paid holidays, got rid of the 80hr/week cap, overtime paid over the pay period not per day so an 18 hour shift is all straight, and a full 1/4 of my income every week pays for craptastic medical insurance.

Are you in a "right to work" state? I am and it should be called "right to lower wages so execs can get bigger bonuses"
Mr. Jones Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,357
My dads UNCLE was the president
Of the BOILER MAKER'S UNION of the entire USA.
MY grandfather was strike line ENFORCER.
I.E. : knock in you skull if you cross a union picket line and try and work as a SCAB.

NOW YOU KNOW ME and why I still exist...
COWARDS fear me...and my reach...
I.E.: down to your third cousin reach.
danmdevries Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,115
rumraider wrote:
Are you in a "right to work" state? I am and it should be called "right to lower wages so execs can get bigger bonuses"


I dunno. I'm in Indiana.
tailgater Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
dharbolt wrote:
You can't call a thing worthless without implying the ingredients are also worthless


Not true at all.
Look no further than America's politicians.

My wife was part of the teachers union. I wouldn't suggest that she is worthless, yet the teacher's union is one of the worst and most useless organizations to walk gods green earth.

Bullmastiff Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-20-2010
Posts: 101
I belonged to two different labor unions when I lived and worked in Massachusetts. Labor unions are good at a number of things, primarily self-perpetuating bureaucracies, keeping the status quo, and stifling innovation. I’m now in a Right to Work state, and am far better compensated because my career path is determined by performance and ability, rather than who I know or how long I’ve sat in a position.
tailgater Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
rumraider wrote:
While i agree that union leadership is generally crap, unions do at least give some balance to the system. Can you imagineif corporations were left without any check on their authority? Tradesman would be in the same class as illegals and the quality of work would drop along with safety standards as corps would be even more inclined to pay government to make laws hosing workers and consumers. Unions may be a necessary evil. Does anyone ever bitch about corporate welfare any more or do they just get a pass as "job creators"


100% union fed BS.
All of it.
And I know. Because I get the mailings. And the phone calls.

Corporations want to hire and keep the best employees. If you think otherwise then you're simply wrong. Name one corporation that wants to overpay for inadequate talent. Because I can certainly give you examples of unions protecting the worst workers. Tenure over talent. It's not the official union motto, but it should be.

And there are government regulations to "keep them in check" if that's what you want.

Why would tradesmen be impacted if labor unions were eliminated?

You think corporations are evil. I get it. America has been fed this line of BS for decades.
Owners make more money than workers, so they must be evil.
Right?





tailgater Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
tonygraz wrote:
Boy did that Union caller get a bad number - shades of Hope and Diller.


But it wasn't even a "union caller".
Damn ***** wasn't even brave enough to call in person.

Or too lazy.

Your choice.

gummy jones Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
tailgater wrote:
Because I can certainly give you examples of unions protecting the worst workers. Tenure over talent. It's not the official union motto, but it should be.




shhhhh!
-big city teachers unions
tailgater Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
None of this would have been discussed at all if the UAW didn't call my house, tell me to vote for Clinton, then tell me they'll call again next week at the same number and there is nothing I can do to stop it.

So screw them.


rumraider Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
tailgater wrote:
100% union fed BS.
All of it.
And I know. Because I get the mailings. And the phone calls.no you dont, you already admitted you hang up

Corporations want to hire and keep the best employees. If you think otherwise then you're simply wrong. Name one corporation that wants to overpay for inadequate talent. I'll do better, they ALL want to underpay for talentBecause I can certainly give you examples of unions protecting the worst workers. Tenure over talent. It's not the official union motto, but it should be.

And there are government regulations to "keep them in check" if that's what you want. is that the same government that regulated the banks? The government you're always bitching about?

Why would tradesmen be impacted if labor unions were eliminated? because each worker would be left to fend for themselves and would lose bargaining power. Corporations would be able to influence politicians and mindless citizens with money and advertising and tradesmen would have no politicians or even lawyers or human resource experts to figure out what their labor is worth. They would be stuck taking the word of companies

You think corporations are evil. I get it.no you dont, you're simply spouting emotional arguments because you picked that side without thinking it through and now your feelings are hurt America has been fed this line of BS for decades.
Owners make more money than workers, so they must be evil.
Right? no, but most squeeze the labor market all they can and rationalize it with trite sayings about it being their job so it must be OK. Unions are simply a way for labor to get fair treatment






ZRX1200 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
So you're too chicken schit to ask for a raise yourself, or move your labor somewhere else. Got it.


Apology accepted.
tailgater Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Rummy,
Keep up the good work, my friend.
Your local will be proud.

I won't be able to change your mind. You're all in.
But understand that your opinion is likely formed from a bias. You've done well in the union, so you assume that their advertising is real. that corporate America would beat down the workers and pay off the politicians and bring back child labor and slavery and rekindle the 3 martini lunch for executives.
None of which can be proved. And all of which is a little to doom-and-gloom for a reasonable person to believe.
Because non-union companies are out there. And they're thriving. With happy employees and strong profits.

And you know what else?
These non-union companies. They DON'T tell you how to vote.





rumraider Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
ZRX1200 wrote:
So you're too chicken schit to ask for a raise yourself, or move your labor somewhere else. Got it.


Apology accepted.

Ah yes, here come the rest of the mean girls. Throw out an unrelated nugget and crawl back up each others colons. If youll look back over the posts youll see I aint complaining, I do fine.
rumraider Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
tailgater wrote:
Rummy,
Keep up the good work, my friend.
Your local will be proud.

I won't be able to change your mind. You're all in.
But understand that your opinion is likely formed from a bias. You've done well in the union, so you assume that their advertising is real. that corporate America would beat down the workers and pay off the politicians and bring back child labor and slavery and rekindle the 3 martini lunch for executives.
None of which can be proved. And all of which is a little to doom-and-gloom for a reasonable person to believe.
Because non-union companies are out there. And they're thriving. With happy employees and strong profits.

And you know what else?
These non-union companies. They DON'T tell you how to vote.






Never belonged to a union but i can see what theyve done to improve the entire labor market in the US. I think for myself and vote however I want. You should try it.
tailgater Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I will.
As soon as the union stops telling me how to vote.
Herfing
sd72 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 03-09-2011
Posts: 9,600
Everyone on tv, radio, the interwebs, email, phones, and everywhere not consumed in a black hole is telling you how to vote. Can we expect other threads as you see and hear commercials, get the recorded messages, and see advertising on the roads that disagree with your vote?
ZRX1200 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
Well, I didn't need to know your porn preference but whatevs.
jjanecka Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
dharbolt wrote:
^^^ teachers, firefighters, police, worthless?


Unions suck, not the people.

But in the case of teachers; yes, most teachers are absolutely worthless and the ones that actually are decent never get the recognition they deserve.
ZRX1200 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
I hate the worship schit......lame.
victor809 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
People are stupid. And greedy. And lazy.

Labor unions have had a value in the past, and I'm sure that they will have a value going forward. The practices which they stopped in the past, would resume under other conditions, simply because people are greedy.

A company is beholden to the shareholders. They want maximum profit or they'll invest in another company. Without labor unions, there's no reason to think a company wouldn't push for maximum work for minimum cost.

On the other hand, situations where a union manages to take over an entire labor force, you have a monopoly where the power has shifted too far to the other side. Just as workers had no position to bargain with an employer when they weren't organized, a completely unionized labor market leaves an employer with no position to bargain from and creates an unfair platform. That situation is just as likely to be abused by unionized labor as it was by corporations. Because again, people are stupid, lazy and greedy. Note, we keep corporations from monopolizing a product for a reason.

Anyone who is going to fall 100% on either side of this is probably brainwashed by one group or another and isn't able to think for themselves.

frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
victor809 wrote:Anyone who is going to fall 100% on either side of this is probably brainwashed by one group or another and isn't able to think for themselves.

agree.

China could use some unions, we would benefit
banderl Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
frankj1 wrote:
victor809 wrote:Anyone who is going to fall 100% on either side of this is probably brainwashed by one group or another and isn't able to think for themselves.

agree.

China could use some unions, we would benefit



So would their workers.
frankj1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
no one else can make it happen
banderl Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
The problem is that the companies which are currently manufacturing stuff in China will just move to the next cheap place.
jjanecka Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Victor you hit the nail right on the head. I probably should have taken a little better time to really explain my stances.

Now that I finally sat down to a nice cigar, I would like to elaborate.

There are some things where unions are of moderate benefit. Like when Smithfield employees were recently diagnosed with TB coming out of their hog processing facilities. That's when a union should step in and say enough's enough.

Or in a situation where a chemical processing plant is ordering their employees to dump caustic waste into a river endangering the lives of more than just the employees.

Or unions for linemen and construction because that work is inherently dangerous.

But unions for sports players, teachers, cashiers, et cetera simply no longer serve their purpose.

Pro Sports players make enough money as it stands, yes even the ones that are only making 30-40k. They get to live out their dream everyday and get paid to do it.

Teachers don't need unions nor should a professor ever be tenured. Truthfully I feel that education would benefit on the whole if it were entirely privatized. It is the professor's responsibility to remain relevant, motivated, and intuitive. There's nothing that I hate more than being talked down on by a teacher because they believe in master-pupil relationships. The greatest relationships with teachers I had came from real-world experienced teachers. The govt teacher who was a very active freemason that lived and breathed the constitution, the govt teacher who actively has been working campaigns since Bill Clinton's era, the Lawyer who had an active practice but still took nine hours out the week to teach business law, the History teacher that works in countless mueseums and could tell the story better than an episode of "drunken history," the Ag teacher who successfully manages 2k acres of land and still has time to come in and teach in the middle of irrigating. These are the people that deserve the respect because they live it and they'll die for it. Not some tenured pratt that only became sucessfull after he received his doctorate who's business only exists to leech off the school or university.

Cashiers? That's a no brainer. I don't know how some of these people are whining about minimum wage. The only time I ever made minimum wage was when I was 16yo and it didn't take but three weeks and I was already making well above that.

Truthfully though, the more America migrates toward a service based economy the less unions there need to be.
tailgater Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:


Anyone who is going to fall 100% on either side of this is probably brainwashed by one group or another and isn't able to think for themselves.



Who is doing the brain washing for the NON-union stance?


jjanecka Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I guess people like us who negotiate our own terms and are free to think and act according to our own standard.
tailgater Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
There are good workers and bad workers everywhere.
But a union mentality is infectious and ruins work ethic, moral, and attitude.

I've currently got a kid in the public high school (union) and at the local charter school (non union).
Guess which teachers are generally superior?
Guess which ones call or email when there is an issue or question?

The difference is night and day. You can almost feel it. And I really like our local high school. But there is no comparison where they even come close.


My town has two main supermarkets.
One is non-union. I know because the unions protested when they were building it. Because having a non-union supermarket apparently is an affront to their sensibilities.

Guess which one has FAR superior workers? Cashiers, produce and meat department, stock boys. Doesn't matter the position, the workers are like out of 1950's movie compared to the ipod drones collecting carriages at the Stop and Shop.


Time and again the NON union institutes severely out perform the union ones.

It's not even close.


But if our goal is to encourage mediocrity, then I guess the union mentality is king.

tailgater Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
jjanecka wrote:
I guess people like us who negotiate our own terms and are free to think and act according to our own standard.


Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

gummy jones Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
lets say you want to be a coal miner like your daddy and granddaddy before him
it is your life long dream

the only way it is possible is if you are forced to donate a portion of your wages every pay check to a political party that is hell bent on destroying your industry.

or if you want to be a police officer
it is your life long dream

the only way it is possible is if you are forced to donate a portion of your wages every pay check to a political party that demonizes you and incites the very people you are trying to serve all while enacting endless policies to continue the bondages of welfare and lack of accountability (both of which will make your job of policing harder). "its not me though, im one of the good guys, its the bad cops." by the way then, those bad cops will forever be free to "serve and protect (their own interests)" thanks to that union. oh and not to mention the fact that your pension will bankrupt the very community you live in.

sounds like freedom to me
Just Relax Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 09-26-2016
Posts: 587
Unions had a purpose and still can have a purpose. Back when unions were formed guys were working the production lines and being thrown on the street when they lost a hand because they were no longer valuable. Unions came in and improved conditions vastly. The power became so great with the unions that they began to take advantage of it. The line goes down because of a broken switch, only the electricians can work on it and they are on other calls, the mechanics sit in the break room waiting on a call as well as the entire line sweeps floors (if that is allowed) while production halts. Even if somebody has the initiative to fix it they will be reprimanded if they act. Then entire communities became shambles when the company(s) said ef this at 40% efficency and $25+ hour minimum wages. I'll move to Mexico instead.

Grocers union is all about lining pockets as well. You think a kid making $8 an hour is happy giving his $20 a week or whatever to somebody that he'll never meet because he doesn't know what a grievance is to know that one can be filed. And what does he have to complain about anyway.

There is a bit of the "not my job" mentality in the trades and short end of the stick or preferential treatment in awarding jobs but for the most part the trade unions still have value because of the training and standards they are held to. If I built a commercial building I'd want IBEW electricians on the job as an example. Is there things to improve, sure. Is the quality of a job build overall better? For the most part yes IMO.

Are auto workers (mostly tier supplier plants) in non union plants making less than they should, of course. But an established union isn't going to help them though as the company will say well it was a good run on their way to another town. They'd be better off to get a lawyer and walk out and do the negotiation on their own.

I've never been mad at a union employee for making the good money while it's available. But you're kidding yourself if you don't think you're making at least 30% more than what the job is actually worth between extra wage, hour minimums, production quotas, or other benefits. So I also don't feel real sorry when the company finally has a way out and says ef this I've found a better way, here's the final check.
Just Relax Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 09-26-2016
Posts: 587
Quick trigger duplicate post...
tailgater Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Unions USED to have a purpose.

The same could be said for diapers.

We've outgrown the unions because our government has outgrown us.
Their only purpose now is to pad the pockets of the thugs in charge, while brain washing their minions to keep paying the dues.
Mafia shakedowns are illegal, why do we allow unions?

jjanecka Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Because it fuels the freeloader mentality that the Democrats can leverage to get votes
bgz Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
jjanecka wrote:
Victor you hit the nail right on the head. I probably should have taken a little better time to really explain my stances.

Now that I finally sat down to a nice cigar, I would like to elaborate.

There are some things where unions are of moderate benefit. Like when Smithfield employees were recently diagnosed with TB coming out of their hog processing facilities. That's when a union should step in and say enough's enough.

Or in a situation where a chemical processing plant is ordering their employees to dump caustic waste into a river endangering the lives of more than just the employees.

Or unions for linemen and construction because that work is inherently dangerous.

But unions for sports players, teachers, cashiers, et cetera simply no longer serve their purpose.

Pro Sports players make enough money as it stands, yes even the ones that are only making 30-40k. They get to live out their dream everyday and get paid to do it.

Teachers don't need unions nor should a professor ever be tenured. Truthfully I feel that education would benefit on the whole if it were entirely privatized. It is the professor's responsibility to remain relevant, motivated, and intuitive. There's nothing that I hate more than being talked down on by a teacher because they believe in master-pupil relationships. The greatest relationships with teachers I had came from real-world experienced teachers. The govt teacher who was a very active freemason that lived and breathed the constitution, the govt teacher who actively has been working campaigns since Bill Clinton's era, the Lawyer who had an active practice but still took nine hours out the week to teach business law, the History teacher that works in countless mueseums and could tell the story better than an episode of "drunken history," the Ag teacher who successfully manages 2k acres of land and still has time to come in and teach in the middle of irrigating. These are the people that deserve the respect because they live it and they'll die for it. Not some tenured pratt that only became sucessfull after he received his doctorate who's business only exists to leech off the school or university.

Cashiers? That's a no brainer. I don't know how some of these people are whining about minimum wage. The only time I ever made minimum wage was when I was 16yo and it didn't take but three weeks and I was already making well above that.

Truthfully though, the more America migrates toward a service based economy the less unions there need to be.


Apparently you don't know too many teachers (k-12... sounds like you're mainly talking college professors).

What happens with teachers, is greedy politicians get in there and rape the education budgets, and when that happens, it forces the skilled and talented teachers to leave the profession. A good teacher has the mentality and drive to take up another profession rather easily, they're good because they actually want to teach and make a difference, not because it's all they can do.

So teachers continually get worse, test scores keep dropping (don't get me started on teaching to the test), class sizes keep getting bigger and then people start talking about how much better it would be if education was privatized.

I've known plenty of people who went to private schools, IMO, it's not really better, I mean, they still have to achieve the same standards as public education, and kids can still turn into screw ups, where they simply get kicked out.

Anyway... you found another topic I generally agree with the left on (just their rhetoric, not their actions as their actions don't support the position).

I believe to stay competitive with other countries, we need solid education system. We need to quit teaching to the test and focus on teaching critical thinking skills as most trade jobs of the future are going to engineering the tools/robots that create the products and do the services as opposed to actually doing the work your self.

I'm rambling now, point is, good teachers are good, don't want to pay teachers sh1t? No good teachers, that's the bottom line.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>