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Last post 7 years ago by DrafterX. 129 replies replies.
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Trump wants investigation into voter fraud.
Buckwheat Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
The only reason Trump wants this investigation is so he can "prove" that he won the popular vote. He comes across like a petulant child on Adderall. horse
DrafterX Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
If that's the only reason then ya.. pretty silly... but I think he said he was gonna look into this along the campaign trail also... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
gummy jones wrote:
i, for one, am interested in the "proof"

because it depends on who you hear talking about it and what their agenda is

if some person supposedly has a list of millions of names that voted but dont exist (or so i read) i think i would be interested in seeing it as well


me too
teedubbya Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DrafterX wrote:
If that's the only reason then ya.. pretty silly... but I think he said he was gonna look into this along the campaign trail also... Mellow



looking in to it is different than proclaiming it so with no evidence at all
DrafterX Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
True... true... I do think he opened a can of worms here... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
There are ample instances of GOP authors who admit that voter "restriction" ("suppression" seems to be an obscene word in this context) laws were intended to reduce the number of Dem votes. They have been effective, especially in rural and blighted urban areas where historical voting patterns have shown were heavily Dem. These laws were pushed by the GOP, using voter fraud as justification, to reverse the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which banned legal barriers (state laws) that kept blacks from being able to vote.They studied ways that Dem voters exercised their rights and developed strategies to target them.

These restrictions made voting more difficult for many people, and included: require some form of state approved ID, restricted week-end/pre-election day voting, ended same day registration, expanded the periods of time between registering and election day, closed/reduced the number of polling places in heavily Dem areas, restricted the hours of voting, cut the number of poll workers, stationed armed uniformed voting enforcement agents at polling places. These laws may not have intentionally stopped blacks from voting but they disproportionately impacted black and latino voters

When challenged in court, judges agreed these laws were unconstitutional...

Maybe when all is said and done, antiquated voting processes which makes it difficult to vote and which can lead to fraud throughout the country, red and blue alike, will be corrected.
DrafterX Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
but doesn't lifting restrictions have the same effect allowing felons or illegals to vote..?? and which party would they most likely vote with..?? Huh
Abrignac Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Voting is a fundamental right and a bedrock of our nation. A right as important as this must be protected to ensure that it is not diluted for political gain. As such I see absolutely no reason why we shouldn't verify that those exercising this right in have this right granted to them. There is absolutely no coherent argument to be made otherwise.

As far as same day registration I don't see the need for it. The argument for it is hollow. Basically, the argument is that it creates an undue burden to go through a vetting process prior to the election in order to vote. Nonsense. This implies this subset of voters only leave their house once a year on Election Day.

Their are dead people on voter rolls. Anyone can show up and claim to be a dead person and vote. Absent identification there is no way to stop this which in of itself taints the voting process we hold so important.

As far as voter roll purges are concerned, is there a problem with removing dead people from voter rolls?

On the subject of closing voter precincts, I have no problem consolidating precincts as long as the remaining precincts are in line with other precinct densities. If you have 10 printings with a block of each other, that's a problem. I normally drive about 3 miles to my precinct. I don't think is too large a sacrifice for someone to go a mile or so to vote. As long as the there are ample voting machines to handle crowds I'm fine with that. In some elections I've been able to walk in and vote with no wait. Other times I've stood in line an hour. Oh, well.
ZRX1200 Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
^ racist
bgz Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
If you don't require a valid state id to vote, then you can claim that you are anyone.

It's common sense.
Buckwheat Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
bgz wrote:
If you don't require a valid state id to vote, then you can claim that you are anyone.

It's common sense.


Or no one.

I agree with you Ant. =d>
victor809 Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
But if you are registered with an address etc... then you really can't claim to be that person without knowing their address... right?

I mean that in itself really restricts this fraud from being anything more than a one off issue. Think about what you'd need to be able to do to vote under a different registered name for every person you want to create a vote for.

It's doable. But it's like creating fake cbid accounts... we can do it... but not in mass quantities enough to change the polls
DrafterX Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
I'm guessing if the address on your picture ID is different they would still let you vote... Mellow
Abrignac Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
victor809 wrote:
But if you are registered with an address etc... then you really can't claim to be that person without knowing their address... right?

I mean that in itself really restricts this fraud from being anything more than a one off issue. Think about what you'd need to be able to do to vote under a different registered name for every person you want to create a vote for.

It's doable. But it's like creating fake cbid accounts... we can do it... but not in mass quantities enough to change the polls



That's really weak. Easy to game that solution. Reminds me of a guy that escaped from our jail. Normally they verify a persons thumbprints before they release them. If they don't match they would as the person their date of birth and SSN. It's a poorly kept secret as well as which shift is the laziest. One guy facing charges that carried a life sentence convinced a weak deputy to take him to CB to use the free phone knowing he would be placed in the same cell as people getting out. Once in the cell he made arrangements to send a similarly sized black guy, btw he is white, to give him civilian clothes and let him try to get out under his name. When they tried to verify him naturally the prints didn't match. The supervisor didn't even look at the booking photo of the guy being released even though it was on the page behind the one he looked when the guy verified his dob and SSN.

He was found 6 years later on a traffic stop 2000 miles away in LA.

DrafterX Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
was he still white..?? Huh
Abrignac Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
DrafterX wrote:
was he still white..?? Huh



Black & blue when I saw him. Also had a few oooooh weeeee knots as well.
delta1 Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
We are trying to fix a small problem with harsh and restrictive solutions. Can we agree that we truly want all Americans to exercise their most basic Constitutional right to vote? If yes, read on. If not, thanks for stopping in...you are only interested in some people, not those people, voting...

Why don't we fix the antiquated, out-dated, prone to human error and possible fraudulent votes, current voter registration system? It is the primary reason for most voters, both GOP and Dems, avoid voting. Fraud is not the reason, as attested to by many GOP officials who have seriously investigated this issue, looking for smoking guns, only to come up with a few scattered individual cases. Most of those were due to human errors, many made by voter clerks and not the actual voter. The updating of the voter registration system is a doable one that will cost less than all the time and money spent on the current system of registration, investigation and prosecuting cases of fraud, and implementing voter restriction laws.

There are several re-vamps that would accomplish this:

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/projects/election-initiatives/about/upgrading-voter-registration

http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/voter-registration-modernization-states
Abrignac Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Al I truly want everyone who has the constitutional right to vote be able to exercise that right. But, no one can convince me that require proper identification is unduly burdensome.

My grandfather was an elected member of the state house, both he and my Dad were ward bosses. One could say I grew up in politics. To say there isn't a degree of voter fraud is disingenuous at worse. Naive at best. I was within earshot of much political strategic planning. I cooked many pots of jambalaya where people came empty handed and left with large paper bags allegedly full of money and ballot cards. After putting those bags in their cars. As they walked by they would tell many how many plates of jambalaya they wanted. Supposedly the cards and cash were passed out to to people as they were being taken to the polls. It's been said that it was common that a significant number made multiple trips to the poll.

These events allegedly took place more than 30 years ago. My mind is a bit fuzzy, but I think all of the alleged participants are deceased.

It seems no irregularities were detected, because I don't recall any of the alleged participants were ever investigated.

So absent detection, how does anyone know the magnitude of it? It's like the government estimates the volume of contraband coming into the country. If one has nothing to measure, how is it measured with accurately?
delta1 Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
You are describing highly organized instances of voter fraud, and I wholeheartedly agree that it should be stamped out and the perpetrators jailed and fined. Since 2000, after the highly contested Bush/Gore election, many Fed DOJ/AGs, state AGs and elections officials have looked long and hard to uncover these schemes and come up empty. Some independent researchers have uncovered instances of non-citizen voters, the illegals I think Trump was referring to.

In the report Trump uses as evidence, the authors say it is possible that non-citizen votes could sway very close elections, and may have done so in NC and MN. The authors also said there isn't evidence of widespread voter fraud, and ID laws wouldn't fix the flaws they uncovered. Other researchers have questioned the methodology: on-line and self-identified subjects. The author now wishes he had never published that research paper. His associates have disputed Trump's claim that it is proof of voter fraud, especially of the magnitude that he asserts.

I guess a thorough official investigation may put this issue to rest, since reasonable minds can't agree. As for Trump's administration doing the investigation, I think it is a fools errand, because it'll be criticized as biased from the start, by the left, just as the right wouldn't find a similar study done by the Obama administration to be credible. Total waste of time and money. It would be better to appoint an independent group that are considered experts at this sort of thing, that both parties agree upon.
frankj1 Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
non issue. save the money.
DrafterX Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
not sure if this is fraud but it was deceit.. I was at a community college one day for a seminar of some sort when I noticed a voter registration booth.. I was registered as an Independent at the time and told the lady I wanted to register Republican.. She said they only register Democrats there.. I didn't think much of it at the time but I wonder how often that happens... Think
Abrignac Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
frankj1 wrote:
non issue. save the money.


I totally agree that an investigation is wasted money. Frank called it a fools errand which in my opinion is spot on. But, the solution is much simpler. Spend those dollars instead to do this:

A) require a state issued picture ID to vote
B) mandate and federally fund a platform such that states can compare their voter rolls against other state voter rolls (read only) to determine if there are duplications.
C) cross reference the county death certificate database with county voter registration roles

This will ensure that the person casting a vote is actually on the voter roll. It would prevent a person from voting more than once nationwide. It would also ensure that dead people don't vote.

Problem solved.
frankj1 Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Abrignac wrote:
I totally agree that an investigation is wasted money. Frank called it a fools errand which in my opinion is spot on. But, the solution is much simpler. Spend those dollars instead to do this:

A) require a state issued picture ID to vote
B) mandate and federally fund a platform such that states can compare their voter rolls against other state voter rolls (read only) to determine if there are duplications.
C) cross reference the county death certificate database with county voter registration roles

This will ensure that the person casting a vote is actually on the voter roll. It would prevent a person from voting more than once nationwide. It would also ensure that dead people don't vote.

Problem solved.

doesn't sound crazy
delta1 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
DrafterX wrote:
not sure if this is fraud but it was deceit.. I was at a community college one day for a seminar of some sort when I noticed a voter registration booth.. I was registered as an Independent at the time and told the lady I wanted to register Republican.. She said they only register Democrats there.. I didn't think much of it at the time but I wonder how often that happens... Think


Happens a lot. Glad she was honest. We had several controversies at the two colleges when I was working there. Voter registration people in the public mall were accused of signing people up in the wrong party, mostly Republican. One guy was actually arrested because he had done that multiple times at many locations, there was a warrant for him.

Both parties pay money for people to sign-up and register non-voters into their party. It would be a deceit and a criminal fraud, a crime, if she said, OK and then filed the app as a Dem. when you intended to register as a Rep.
Covfireman Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
I totally agree that an investigation is wasted money. Frank called it a fools errand which in my opinion is spot on. But, the solution is much simpler. Spend those dollars instead to do this:

A) require a state issued picture ID to vote




How are the state to pay for the I'D and make it available to everyone .

Another unfunded mandate . What a bunch of bullies .horse
Abrignac Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Covfireman wrote:
How are the state to pay for the I'D and make it available to everyone .

Another unfunded mandate . What a bunch of bullies .horse


I'm guessing most already have one. I'm pretty sure you'll need one to sign up for Medicaid and Medicare.
Brewha Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,143
DrafterX wrote:
not sure if this is fraud but it was deceit.. I was at a community college one day for a seminar of some sort when I noticed a voter registration booth.. I was registered as an Independent at the time and told the lady I wanted to register Republican.. She said they only register Democrats there.. I didn't think much of it at the time but I wonder how often that happens... Think

Very, very rarely.
Most Indipendents are smart enought not to turn republican......

Herfing
opelmanta1900 Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Brewha wrote:
Very, very rarely.
Most Indipendents are smart enought not to turn republican......

Herfing


Applause
Covfireman Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
I'm guessing most already have one. I'm pretty sure you'll need one to sign up for Medicaid and Medicare.


What about those that don't ? I get it you say f them . Good job . Another unfunded mandate from Washington . How big of a government do you want . I guess you want me to register my guns also ? **** how about reading the constitution .

This investigation that even you say will produce little results but you want to force people to jump through hoops for the governmention .

Abrignac Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Covfireman wrote:
What about those that don't ? I get it you say f them . Good job . Another unfunded mandate from Washington . How big of a government do you want . I guess you want me to register my guns also ? **** how about reading the constitution .

This investigation that even you say will produce little results but you want to force people to jump through hoops for the governmention .




RollEyes

Abrignac Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Covfireman wrote:
What about those that don't ? I get it you say f them . Good job . Another unfunded mandate from Washington . How big of a government do you want . I guess you want me to register my guns also ? **** how about reading the constitution .

This investigation that even you say will produce little results but you want to force people to jump through hoops for the governmention .



Come think of it, perhaps you're correct. Let anybody who shows up at the polls vote. We don't need no stinkin' gubberment.

We fired our guns and the British kep a coming,
Thar wasn't as many as thar was 'while ago,
Oh,
We fired.....
frankj1 Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Johnny Horton?
Abrignac Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
frankj1 wrote:
Johnny Horton?



Weiner. Call Huma for your prize.
Covfireman Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
Come think of it, perhaps you're correct. Let anybody who shows up at the polls vote. We don't need no stinkin' gubberment.

We fired our guns and the British kep a coming,
Thar wasn't as many as thar was 'while ago,
Oh,
We fired.....


Use the voter registration and enforce the laws we have . Why write another law for something that hasn't presented a problem? I don't quite advocate anarchy and Government has good uses ( most of them "conservatives"are against ) like social programs , roads, fire departments, national parks , a strong properly equipped military ( not a $1200pos battle harness that's replace with an of the shelf Israeli knockoff for under 80 ) . We spent millions of dollars to decide that the handgun preference by our special services should be the one to buy .

I'm just batching today . Voter registration is such an insignificant issue to waste money or time on .
Abrignac Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Covfireman wrote:
Use the voter registration and enforce the laws we have . Why write another law for something that hasn't presented a problem? I don't quite advocate anarchy and Government has good uses ( most of them "conservatives"are against ) like social programs , roads, fire departments, national parks , a strong properly equipped military ( not a $1200pos battle harness that's replace with an of the shelf Israeli knockoff for under 80 ) . We spent millions of dollars to decide that the handgun preference by our special services should be the one to buy .

I'm just batching today . Voter registration is such an insignificant issue to waste money or time on .


Totally agree. I don't think I ever suggested any new laws.
Abrignac Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Batching, is that like making a batch of 'shine???
Covfireman Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
Batching, is that like making a batch of 'shine???



That's when I put all my gripes in one argument and mix up facts . Let me fix it .



Build the wall ! Herfing

Covfireman Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
Totally agree. I don't think I ever suggested any new laws.


I have a friend who sold debit-life insurance . Low value policies collected by the agent in person . I remember him telling me about the problems he had getting some of the benifits paid because his clients had no ID or bank accounts and checks over 10k were almost impossible to cash for them after the local bank sold . This wasn't a racial thing it was an economic problem . Some people say if they're poor they have to have I'd to get welfare . Until you've been up some of the hollows in Virginia, West Virginia, or Kentucky you haven't seen poor and proud . People who wouldn't take a dime from the federal government . I've seen coal miners who were 60 years old who have never had a driver license.

Abrignac Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
Covfireman wrote:
I have a friend who sold debit-life insurance . Low value policies collected by the agent in person . I remember him telling me about the problems he had getting some of the benifits paid because his clients had no ID or bank accounts and checks over 10k were almost impossible to cash for them after the local bank sold . This wasn't a racial thing it was an economic problem . Some people say if they're poor they have to have I'd to get welfare . Until you've been up some of the hollows in Virginia, West Virginia, or Kentucky you haven't seen poor and proud . People who wouldn't take a dime from the federal government . I've seen coal miners who were 60 years old who have never had a driver license.



So I'm confused. Do you think people should have to provide proper education to vote?
ZRX1200 Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,473
ZRX1200 wrote:
So say this slowly.....

"ID SHOULDN'T BE REQUIRED TO PRACTICE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS"

Say it a few time please.





Still waiting for you Trolly...... come on now
Covfireman Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
Abrignac wrote:
So I'm confused. Do you think people should have to provide proper education to vote?



I would say education would be great . I'd even say set an iq limit say 150 . It's not my decision .

I just gave you examples of people who had no government issued ID . in Virginia before the voter supression laws were passed they could use a ss card or a work ID , there were some combinations of differnt Id's that would work .


As for the ones who are crooked

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/01/27/a-trump-supporter-was-charged-with-voting-twice-her-lawyer-says-she-shouldnt-stand-trial-2/?ref=yfp&utm_term=.4f82bcf64663


Can't blame her she's crazy supposedy .they're waiting on a mental exam another waste of taxpayer money . Anyone who voted for trump once has a screw loose but twice defiantly batszit crazy .Angel
Speyside Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
150 on the Stanford-Binet or the Cattell test? Also do you mean no one with a higher IQ should vote? Or do you mean no one with a lower IQ should vote. If you mean higher then you are saying really smart people should not vote. If you mean lower then you are saying over 90% of the people in the country should not vote.
DrafterX Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
Only land owners should vote.... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
Voter fraud is a boogeyman the GOP used to justify broad voting restriction laws, to suppress voters. It is the cover needed to get support for these laws, which are passed solely to suppress the vote. Lower turnout rates have historically favored the GOP. There are many tapes and videos of GOP authors of these bills saying so. That's the fact jack, not fake news, not alternative facts.
DrafterX Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
And on the other side they try to lift restrictions on felons and illegals to basically buy more votes... buy not enforcing existing laws you're encouraging people to break them... Mellow



So what do we do..?? Huh
TMCTLT Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
delta1 wrote:
Voter fraud is a boogeyman the GOP used to justify broad voting restriction laws, to suppress voters. It is the cover needed to get support for these laws, which are passed solely to suppress the vote. Lower turnout rates have historically favored the GOP. There are many tapes and videos of GOP authors of these bills saying so. That's the fact jack, not fake news, not alternative facts.



Please LIST FOR US the BROAD voting restrictions you speak of.....


Is the Boogyman you speak of the ARMED Black Panthers who DID physically try to intimidate and ultimately turn away voters in Obama win????
delta1 Offline
#97 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
Here they are:

http://www.brennancenter.org/voting-restrictions-first-time-2016
opelmanta1900 Offline
#98 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
10 states require id to vote, 6 require photo id... clearly democrats oppose these laws to encourage fraudulent voting.... voter id being restrictive to anyone is the cover they need to get support for defeating these laws, which are defeated solely to encourage fraudulent voting. Higher fraud rates historically favor the libs....
Abrignac Offline
#99 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,216
delta1 wrote:
Here they are:

http://www.brennancenter.org/voting-restrictions-first-time-2016



Did you actually click on the states to see the "restrictions"?

The 3/4 of states I looked at fell under 1 or 2 categories. Either they required ID's or the cut early voting down to max of 21-30 days. Its absolutely nonsense to say that either of these places an undue burden on people wishing to exercise their vote.

I won't belabor the point about ID requirements since my position has been stated. But, just how many days does one need to vote?
delta1 Offline
#100 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
Yes, I read them. Similar laws were passed in 2012, where the existing systems of voting did not have widespread fraud. Then after the restrictive laws were passed and the elections held with those restrictions in place, the results showed fewer people voted, a disproportionate number being poor, and minority. It worked, so ...
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