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GOP Senate Healthcare Bill Collapses...
rfenst Online
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,302
Probably going to have to involve the Dems now to eventually get something that will pass. Repealing Obamacare alone won't suffice to appease voters.
Mr. Jones Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
GOOD...

I GET TO KEEP MY FREE MEDICAID....

IT'S THE ONLY THING I HAVE LEFT AFTER
5 years of FBI-SSG ILLEGAL GANGSTALKING...
PRETTY MUCH PENILESS AFTER THEY ROBBED MY HUT OF ALL MY MONEY.
Buckwheat Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Mr. Jones wrote:
GOOD...

I GET TO KEEP MY FREE MEDICAID....

IT'S THE ONLY THING I HAVE LEFT AFTER
5 years of FBI-SSG ILLEGAL GANGSTALKING...
PRETTY MUCH PENILESS AFTER THEY ROBBED MY HUT OF ALL MY MONEY.



ni shagu nazad Mr. J. horse
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
rfenst wrote:
Probably going to have to involve the Dems now to eventually get something to pass.




I'm pretty sure they've already been asked.... they will have to get Hillary's Resistance Party's approval of course... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Their own party wasn't asked/involved. It was all in secret.

We need more bipartisanship despite what the all or nothing take no prisoners crowed in here thinks.
teedubbya Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
crowed?
DrafterX Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
I've heard more than one Republican senate member say the Democrats were invited but refused to participate.. within the past couple weeks... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
uh huh I'm sure you have.

you are a marketers dream.
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
well, that's what they said... Mellow
Buckwheat Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
DrafterX wrote:
I've heard more than one Republican senate member say the Democrats were invited but refused to participate.. within the past couple weeks... Mellow


I think they realized that being invited to be silent partners &/or scapegoats is not a wise invitation to accept. This is Mitch's cluster to own.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
I think Obama created the cluster... It does have his name on it and stuff... Mellow
Buckwheat Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
DrafterX wrote:
I think Obama created the cluster... It does have his name on it and stuff... Mellow


It doesn't have his name on it and I don't disagree that the Dems and Obama made a bad situation worse. Beer
teedubbya Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Classic example of getting pissy and pointing at someone when they do something wrong then using that to justify doing the same thing only worse. When will they learn.
DrafterX Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
I think they all know better.... Hillary won't let them help... Mellow
MACS Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
And I still say the gov't should not be involved in health care, let alone providing it.

Nix it, and be done. But that's a pipe dream now... once it becomes an 'entitlement', becoming a 'right' is the next step.

Socialism will be the death of this country. Look at Greece, Venezuela... the EU, which are dead or dying.
Speyside Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Jonsey, I think it's been 6 years now.
delta1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
MACS wrote:


Socialism will be the death of this country. Look at Greece, Venezuela... the EU, which are dead or dying.


Yeah, we should be successful without providing some sort of healthcare, like the Balkans, Liberia, Haiti, South America...
rfenst Online
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,302
Buckwheat wrote:
I think they realized that being invited to be silent partners &/or scapegoats is not a wise invitation to accept. This is Mitch's cluster to own.


Dems were effectively excluded when the "nuclear option" was voted for. Wonder if some of them will break rank and side with Repubs later on down the road. It would only take a few defections to pass a new healthcare bill.
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
You'd think talking to some peoples Obama-care had been around for 100 years.. it was a failed experiment.. let it go... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
While I don't want people who can't afford it to have any healthcare, calling Obamacare a failed experiment shows an extraordinary lack of depth of thought.

Some percentage of the responsibility for issues with the system is due to a constant undermining of the system by the republicans. To call it a failed experiment when your party never actually tried in good faith is simply childish.
jjanecka Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I do not want govt regulated healthcare. If a state wants to regulate it fine but it's not the job of the federal govt.
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
victor809 wrote:
is due to a constant undermining of the system by the republicans.



ya think maybe they did that cause it sucks..?? Huh
TMCTLT Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
jjanecka wrote:
I do not want govt regulated healthcare. If a state wants to regulate it fine but it's not the job of the federal govt.




THIS
jjanecka Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
+1
MACS Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
delta1 wrote:
Yeah, we should be successful without providing some sort of healthcare, like the Balkans, Liberia, Haiti, South America...


False analogy. We have been a wildly successful country for 220+ years, when the gov't provided us with what they're supposed to... national defense and infrastructure. We started the downhill slide as the gov't has stuck their noses in more and more sh*t.
Buckwheat Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Let Obamacare fail - Trump & Republicans
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40646625

This is really going to FUBAR my State of Kentucky. I hope Mitch burns for this. fog
Here's one of his ads from 1990 supporting what he now says is wrong.
https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/wjqwe5/mitch-mcconnell-1990-campaign-ad-supported-affordable-healthcare-for-all


victor809 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
And that was a short lived attempt. It's apparently DOA.


Mr. Jones Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
#16 Speyside

Well , to be exact.....

It ALL STARTED IN JULY , 2010 @ a massive
Hebrew wedding on long island...when a unknown to me.... mossad or shabak operative ...gave me
My first "TOADY"...

A complete stranger walked by me making a very obvious and loud "ribbet ribbet" anouncement while "adjusting their neck accoutrement" , a well-known and very bad signal "in my world"....

One you never ...ever want to get... And it was not even a joke...I've seen home ones before.... This was NO JOKE.. A 100% R.E.A.L. "TOADY"

That's when "STEW" appeared in my life...
That little *****ING short nosey ball capped weasel who was relentless...up in my **** and showing up in very strange places for about 2 years solid...
It was low key reconnaissance...not actual GANGSTALKING....

Then around Oct- Nov. 2012 the ADVANCE FBI-SSG
TEAM WAS ALL OVER ME and I took most of their pictures....
Then in Feb. 2013 is when the SSG forced an early released FELON jailbird to RUFFIE my draft beer and frame me into a false DUI CHARGE... THEN IN MARCH-APRIL IT BECAME *****ING FULL BORE OPEN STRAIGHT OUT SSG GANGSTALKING
24-7-365...street theatre, line stacking, car following, store harrassment, doctors office waiting room harrassment, restaurant harrassment, beer distributor harrassment...DIRECTED CONVERSATION everywhere I frequented or went...

So spey...
Its a variety of timelines...
I start counting the GANGSTALKING years moslty
Starting after APRIL 2013.
MACS Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
“The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves – in their separate, and individual capacities.” – Abraham Lincoln
DrafterX Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
He was first on the Clinton List... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I heard wilkes-booth was Johnny depp's great grandpa...
jjanecka Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Lincoln sucks, he started the civil war...
Krazeehorse Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Politicians' loyalty is to themselves first and foremost. They make decisions based on what they think gives them the best chance of getting re-elected so they can stay on the government teat as long as possible.
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
7 years to prepare a plan.

8 years to let an outsider steal their nomination.

majority in the senate.

majority in the house.

occupy da white house.

very impressive.

Vote for Frankj1
Make Cigarbid Great Again!
delta1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
MACS wrote:
False analogy. We have been a wildly successful country for 220+ years, when the gov't provided us with what they're supposed to... national defense and infrastructure. We started the downhill slide as the gov't has stuck their noses in more and more sh*t.



...missed my point...a whole lot of countries do NOT provide their citizens with healthcare, and yet struggle to survive even without the so-called burden of healthcare expense...

I think it's possible that a fully industrialized, innovative and forward thinking society like the US, with all its wealth and resources, can afford to create a healthcare system, supported by, and for, all the people. It should be one that focuses on prevention and wellness, rather than waiting to provide benefits when sicknesses and disease are catastrophic. This would make for a stronger and healthier labor pool, one that can work longer, more productive lives.

The decision to provide public education that is paid for by all, was based on a similar premise...
victor809 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
So we learned a lot this past week.

The republicans liked to talk tough about repealing Obamacare for 8 years when they knew their votes would get vetoed. But once their votes would actually result in something happening they just can't seem to get together enough of them to even replace Obamacare with something "better" (haha) let alone just repealing it outright.


Its almost like their posturing was completely meaningless.
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
Yep.. next election all someone has to do is promise to repeal no matter what and they're in.. Mellow
SteveS Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
MACS wrote:
And I still say the gov't should not be involved in health care, let alone providing it.
Nix it, and be done. But that's a pipe dream now... once it becomes an 'entitlement', becoming a 'right' is the next step.
Socialism will be the death of this country. Look at Greece, Venezuela... the EU, which are dead or dying.

MACS wrote:
“The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves – in their separate, and individual capacities.” – Abraham Lincoln



My thoughts exactly, spoken as well as (or better than) I could've spoken them myself ... !!!
SteveS Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
frankj1 wrote:

Vote for Frankj1
Make Cigarbid Great Again!


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DrMaddVibe Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,423
rfenst wrote:
Probably going to have to involve the Dems now to eventually get something that will pass. Repealing Obamacare alone won't suffice to appease voters.



Let it die on it's own. It wasn't supposed to live. ABORT IT! It's the Blue Dog Way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MACS Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
https://www.prageru.com/courses/economics/government-cant-fix-healthcare

The Senator from Ohio makes some valid points. Please ignore the source for a minute, and listen to what he says. Then, if you can... refute it. The message... not the messenger.
dstieger Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
victor809 wrote:



Its almost like their posturing was completely meaningless.

Only if the Presidency, House and Senate majorities are meaningless.
MACS Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
victor809 wrote:
So we learned a lot this past week.

The republicans liked to talk tough about repealing Obamacare for 8 years when they knew their votes would get vetoed. But once their votes would actually result in something happening they just can't seem to get together enough of them to even replace Obamacare with something "better" (haha) let alone just repealing it outright.


Its almost like their posturing was completely meaningless.


Until they repeal it... their posturing was completely meaningless. Pandering f***s.
victor809 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
https://www.prageru.com/courses/economics/government-cant-fix-healthcare

The Senator from Ohio makes some valid points. Please ignore the source for a minute, and listen to what he says. Then, if you can... refute it. The message... not the messenger.



Dammit MACS. You really need to stop watching that sh#t... it'll rot your brain. I think that stuff actually inhibits a person's ability to critically think.

Problem 1 - "Why is the government so bad at healthcare?". The entire video... from the beginning starts with this as some sort of assumed truth. But does not prove it.

Their statements about it's access/cost/waste etc make assumptions that are not proven. With the amount spent by the government, can you prove that there are ways to provide more coverage, more access etc? That isn't proven.

They beg the question that government healthcare is bad, and then wedge an explanation into it about it being a 3rd party payer. The video is set up to phrase the argument around the "3rd party payer" while not making you look at the first assumption. "Oh! you can't argue it isn't a 3rd party payer!!!". It's dumb.

Then we get to the more interesting issue around health care and health insurance. The video assumes purchase of healthcare is as simple as buying a tv. That's dumb. It simply isn't. There are enormously important factors which differentiate health insurance purchases.
1 - People are optimists. There are studies done which show people have an irrational optimism about their own "odds" when looking at things like risky behavior. This would clearly impact their healthcare purchases. This in itself wouldn't be a problem, but there's a second issue with healthcare
2 - Doctors. People get fixed up, treated, medicated, whatever. Drs have been doing this since Hippocrates (I believe a sliding cost structure was actually built into Dr's books at that time). You're sick and can't afford treatment because you bought a cut-rate insurance plan? No problem, we'll treat you and charge $50 for a tongue depressor when MACS comes in to get his treatment.
3 - Bankruptcy.. Guess what happens when someone gets treated and can't pay? Yeah. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay.

Combine those issues and you simply cannot expect the free market to operate properly in this situation. People are unfortunately not willing to live (or not live) with their poor decisions. If you could show me a world where people only went and received medical treatments which they either insured themselves for, or have the income to afford... well then I would agree with your little prager video. But the real world doesn't operate like that.

So... is the solution Obamacare? No. I think Obamacare is stupid, as once you've gone and mandated everyone be insured, you sort of remove the entire point of "insurance".... the government has ensured everyone will get treated for certain medical activities, why would you add a layer of fake insurance in between, that just adds costs. I've always felt the solution was to let people die in the streets. But that seems to be unpopular.

I don't know what a popular and smart solution would be. But I know that thinking the problem can be solved in a 3 minute video is bad.
MACS Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
I don't wholly disagree with you. Shocking, I know... the part where people don't want to be responsible for their poor decisions is spot on. And with gov't provided health care, they don't have to.

The gov't is, ALWAYS, a 3rd party payer. They're paying a bill with your money for services they're not receiving, so they don't give a flying f*** what it costs... they just increase taxes (again).

Why is it so hard for people to understand the more gov't gets involved, the worse things become? Let the f***ing market dictate. It's the same issue with student loans. It's easier to borrow so the price goes up. For what? 4th or 5th rate professors who push their own ideals? F*** the gov't six ways to Sunday.

Let people die in the street. Especially the poor, drug addled, non-contributing to society douche bags who do nothing but take, take, take... all while providing their fellow man nothing but burden. F***-em.

The TV analogy was spot on. You know if you want LED, Smart, HDTV, 1080p, etc... same with healthcare... you know what you want, what you can afford, what you can live without... and you're right... mandating it removes the entire point. And... since you must buy it - increases the price.
victor809 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
The tv analogy simply isn't accurate tho.
You're going to buy something with a price you want and a coverage you expect you will need.

You will likely need more coverage than you expect (people being incorrectly optimistic). Then what happens? Do you forgo the treatment you cannot afford and did not insure yourself for? Unfortunately no. You get treated anyway (you get the 70" tv even though you only bought a 50"). You get charged for the services. You go bankrupt and pay 10% of it. And the hospital charges me a ridiculous amount for treatment to make up the cost.

We are paying regardless for the people who cannot pay. You just don't see it the way it was before Obamacare.
MACS Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
Yeah, people who have catastrophic illnesses get financially screwed... why is that my problem, again? They didn't buy what they needed, or didn't buy coverage at all... not my problem.

Insurance is gambling. You bet you won't need it... if you're wrong, you lose. Unlike casino gambling, the vast majority of people who did not buy health insurance were correct... they didn't need it.

The insurance companies wrote Obamacare. Who do you think it benefits? The taxpayer? Or the insurance companies?

Rhetorical, of course.
victor809 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Not my point MACS (or only half my point)
It wouldn't be your problem if the world worked perfectly and those people died at home never to bother those of us who were able to afford or chose to afford sufficient insurance.

But they dont.

They get treated, because doctors have this annoying code that screws with the free market. Then I get charged for it. We were paying for the annoying sick poor before Obamacare came along. The cost gets folded into anything charged to people who can pay, or their insurance companies. Then the insurance company turns around and raises premiums to whoever is paying those.

Even if you don't see it in the form of a tax or whatever, you were still paying it.

I agree the insurance companies are profiting off Obamacare. See my point A few posts above. They are profiting because they're being paid to be a middleman in a system which no longer needs a middleman (if everyone is ultimately covered)... it's why I don't think Obamacare is a good idea. But that doesn't mean insurance is like tv's.
MACS Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,773
Partially correct... we were paying for them when they went. Which was rarely, because they don't have insurance. Most people without, do not go... they weather the storm because they don't have insurance, and can't afford it.

Now they DO have insurance, which we pay for, so they're going for runny f***ing noses and sprained ankles because they're covered... and WE pay for ALL OF THEM, instead of the catastrophes.
frankj1 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
they used to go to the ER for runny noses when not covered cuz they had no primary care physician...and we'd pay.
Many ER's actually started to show a profit when treating actual emergencies.
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