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tailgater Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
From the Boston Globe:

The majority of Harvard’s incoming class is nonwhite, as the Trump administration focuses on affirmative action
For the first time in Harvard University’s history, the majority of students accepted into the incoming freshman class are not white, a milestone for an institution that prides itself on educating future presidents, CEOs, and world leaders.

But Harvard’s push to broaden the diversity of its student ranks comes as the Trump administration intensifies its focus on affirmative action policies and suggests it will investigate how colleges shape the racial makeup of their campuses.

The US Justice Department is preparing to redirect resources from its civil rights division toward investigating and suing universities over affirmative action admissions policies deemed to discriminate against white applicants, The New York Times reported this week.

On Wednesday, the Trump administration said it had no broad plans to investigate whether college and university admissions programs discriminate against students based on race and that it was looking into a single complaint from a coalition of Asian-American groups filed in 2015. The coalition filed an administrative complaint against Harvard University, alleging that the school and other Ivy League institutions are using racial quotas that shut out high-scoring Asians.



Despite at least one glaring error in hiring faculty, I think most people would believe that Harvard's admittance is merit based.
But could they be purposely manipulating their enrollment to achieve racial quotas?
And would it be bad if they were?

jjanecka Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Man, maybe I can finally go to Harvard now!
DrafterX Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Harvard is trying to eradicate the Asians from their campus..?? Huh
MACS Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
Diversity is a scam. They want everyone but whitey, and you better have a liberal mindset, or you'll be bullied, and not allowed to speak your mind... just ask the colleges who have canceled conservative speakers.
victor809 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Read macs... Harvard is merit based.

I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Harvard is a private institution which takes students from around the world. The world is a majority nonwhite... I would expect the demographics of the college would tend that way over time.
Speyside Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Affirmative action is NOT merit based. It is merit based within a specific demographic. 62.6% of the United States is white. Harvard recieves federal money, as do their students.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
victor809 wrote:
Read macs... Harvard is merit based.

I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Harvard is a private institution which takes students from around the world. The world is a majority nonwhite... I would expect the demographics of the college would tend that way over time.


not quite that simple... it's not as if they pick the best and that's that... they have a threshold for accomplishment that one must meet to be considered, but after that threshold is met, there's not much one can do (aside from not being white) to help themselves get accepted...
TMCTLT Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Speyside wrote:
Affirmative action is NOT merit based. It is merit based within a specific demographic. 62.6% of the United States is white. Harvard recieves federal money, as do their students.



Correct.....so how does a university remain " private " and @ the same time receive federal tax dollars???

And once again I agree with Macs in above post. Diversity BS.....It's all a scam. Everything should be based on MERIT and merit ALONE
victor809 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I'm going to revise my original statement. I went and read Harvard's policies.
They "take race into account " But state nothing about hitting certain quotas. Their claim is that they want to have a diverse student body in both a racial and non racial sense. The arguments are interesting and very imprecise. Essentially it boils down to "they can do whatever they want "

Interestingly opel is complaining about it helping anyone who isn't white... but I'm not sure that's accurate any longer. I believe pushing for a diverse student population in colleges which are extraordinarily popular has a greater detrimental effect on Asians at this time (or that has been what's suggested).

Takeaway.... not sure I would call Harvard's policy affirmative action as they simply state they are going to take race into account... not that they're going to hit some quota...moreover... not sure whites should be complaining about that as it likely helps some get in, since they aren't asian....

Think of it this way... back when I went to college I suspect the same sort of policies helped me out as well. All my classmates were from some extraordinarily expensive private schools along the eastern seaboard... I was a Seattle guy from a public school. Odds are that there were some equally qualified Exeter applicants trying to get into my school, but the admissions thought it would be more interesting to pull some people from outside the normal student body pool and grabbed me... add a West coast boy to the mix... there weren't that many of us there.
victor809 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
(Anyone else find an irony in tcby advocating for merit and merit alone in applicants to college?)

TMCTLT Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
(Anyone else find an irony in tcby advocating for merit and merit alone in applicants to college?)



victor809 wrote:
I'm going to revise my original statement. I went and read Harvard's policies.
They "take race into account " But state nothing about hitting certain quotas. Their claim is that they want to have a diverse student body in both a racial and non racial sense. The arguments are interesting and very imprecise. Essentially it boils down to "they can do whatever they want "

Interestingly opel is complaining about it helping anyone who isn't white... but I'm not sure that's accurate any longer. I believe pushing for a diverse student population in colleges which are extraordinarily popular has a greater detrimental effect on Asians at this time (or that has been what's suggested).

Takeaway.... not sure I would call Harvard's policy affirmative action as they simply state they are going to take race into account... not that they're going to hit some quota...moreover... not sure whites should be complaining about that as it likely helps some get in, since they aren't asian....

Think of it this way... back when I went to college I suspect the same sort of policies helped me out as well. All my classmates were from some extraordinarily expensive private schools along the eastern seaboard... I was a Seattle guy from a public school. Odds are that there were some equally qualified Exeter applicants trying to get into my school, but the admissions thought it would be more interesting to pull some people from outside the normal student body pool and grabbed me... add a West coast boy to the mix... there weren't that many of us there.


You certainly are " Outside the Norm " I'll give you that....

What's your point Vicky? What's ironic about my reply?
DrafterX Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Not really... Are you saying he's an idiot..?? Huh
victor809 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Don't i always?
DrafterX Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Laugh
opelmanta1900 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
victor809 wrote:

Interestingly opel is complaining about it helping anyone who isn't white... but I'm not sure that's accurate any longer. I believe pushing for a diverse student population in colleges which are extraordinarily popular has a greater detrimental effect on Asians at this time (or that has been what's suggested).



For the record I wasn't complaining... i don't dare who they do or don't accept over at Harvard... schools like that aren't exactly meeting places for brilliant minds...
victor809 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... true.. I always considered the ivy league to be a bit less intellectually functional and more for show.
TMCTLT Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
victor809 wrote:
... true.. I always considered the ivy league to be a bit less intellectually functional than where I went and more for show.



FIFY....we are all aware of your superiority Vicki
victor809 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Of course that's correct. I wouldn't have gone where I went and applied where I went if I hadn't considered it better.

MACS Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
victor809 wrote:
...Their claim is that they want to have a diverse student body in both a racial and non racial sense.


Diverse in race and non-race, but not in political ideology. Get in step, or our faculty and liberal students will berate you, and tell your speakers they cannot expose the student body to diverse (or opposing) opinions... lest it "trigger" them.
teedubbya Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard Harvard wont even bake cakes for the gays
MACS Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
teedubbya wrote:
I heard Harvard wont even bake cakes for the gays


Bastids...
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Don't gays normally make their own cakes anyways..?? Huh
Gene363 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,787
We DO NOT have a quota, we do have goals. horse

Full of crap Full of crap Full of crap
opelmanta1900 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
I heard Harvard wont even bake cakes for the gays

no, they won't bake gays into cakes... it's a union thing...
TMCTLT Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
DrafterX wrote:
Not really... Are you saying he's an idiot..?? Huh



d'oh!

He doesn't need any help....he does just fine in the jackass dept.
tailgater Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
Read macs... Harvard is merit based.

I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Harvard is a private institution which takes students from around the world. The world is a majority nonwhite... I would expect the demographics of the college would tend that way over time.


So their enrollment is based on global population, rather than American?

Not sure the numbers support that.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
It's all he could think up at the time... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Two bones to pick...

1) The leading sentence is a revealing one about the mindset of the author. It implies that an institution that has produced many Presidents is jeopardizing that record by admitting more non-whites.

2) The over-all tone of the article is that white applicants are being discriminated against by Harvard, yet it reports that is was a coalition of ASIAN AMERICANS who filed a complaint about Harvard's alleged discriminatory admission policies.

...asians getting short sticked again...


I'm not sure what the numbers are but I'd wager that the university is admitting many more foreign students than in the past. That segment of students is a cash cow for colleges and universities because they can charge much more tuition and fees for foreign students than for residents and there are many who can pay.
teedubbya Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I'm sorry about your short stick
DrafterX Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I heard Obama got to go to school free cause he was a foreigner.. Mellow
tailgater Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
Two bones to pick...

1) The leading sentence is a revealing one about the mindset of the author. It implies that an institution that has produced many Presidents is jeopardizing that record by admitting more non-whites.

2) The over-all tone of the article is that white applicants are being discriminated against by Harvard, yet it reports that is was a coalition of ASIAN AMERICANS who filed a complaint about Harvard's alleged discriminatory admission policies.

...asians getting short sticked again...


I'm not sure what the numbers are but I'd wager that the university is admitting many more foreign students than in the past. That segment of students is a cash cow for colleges and universities because they can charge much more tuition and fees for foreign students than for residents and there are many who can pay.


I completely agree with both your bones 1 and 2 (minus the short-stick comment that has TW in a tizzy).

In your last paragraph you're saying that schools charge higher tuition to foreign students. Is that true?

SmokeMonkey Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 04-05-2015
Posts: 5,688
I can't speak to Harvard, but my boys' foreign teammates pay about 1/3 more than out of state tuition. State school, not private.
SmokeMonkey Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 04-05-2015
Posts: 5,688
And, at least for the Europeans, it's a steal compared to tuition there.
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
I completely agree with both your bones 1 and 2 (minus the short-stick comment that has TW in a tizzy).

In your last paragraph you're saying that schools charge higher tuition to foreign students. Is that true?


re: higher tuition...

don't know about private universities, but last year I heard Gov. Baker or the head of the state system make the point that the UMass sites accept so many foreigners because they pay full price, as opposed to a needy yet qualified resident who will need financial aid.

yes, they take both, but the foreigners help balance the bottom line while helping to keep it "affordable" for our locals...or sumptin like that.
victor809 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Tail.. it's a university which accepts students from around the world. Over time the top universities will trend towards the make up of the global population. I don't think they are accepting that many people out of country yet (I think they state how many international students they have and it isn't 90% yet) but that will push the numbers towards global ethnic makeup over time. Probably more quickly since Europe has much more well accepted universities making it more attractive for non Europeans to go to the USA for college than their own countries.

Incidentally .. the article is also wrong . This isn't the first year this has happened... they just want to say that to make you panic. It's also not the only school. The article is trying to manipulate you.
delta1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Here's a 2016 article about international college students attending US colleges, tail.

http://www.businessinsider.com/foreign-students-pay-up-to-three-times-as-much-for-tuition-at-us-public-colleges-2016-9
tailgater Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
Tail.. it's a university which accepts students from around the world. Over time the top universities will trend towards the make up of the global population. I don't think they are accepting that many people out of country yet (I think they state how many international students they have and it isn't 90% yet) but that will push the numbers towards global ethnic makeup over time. Probably more quickly since Europe has much more well accepted universities making it more attractive for non Europeans to go to the USA for college than their own countries.

Incidentally .. the article is also wrong . This isn't the first year this has happened... they just want to say that to make you panic. It's also not the only school. The article is trying to manipulate you.


LOL!
I ask a question. And you claim I'm being "manipulated" into "panic".

In the words of the immortal B. Bunny: What a maroon.




tailgater Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
Here's a 2016 article about international college students attending US colleges, tail.

http://www.businessinsider.com/foreign-students-pay-up-to-three-times-as-much-for-tuition-at-us-public-colleges-2016-9


Cliff notes please.

But the title raises questions:

What about private schools?

And I don't care about who PAYS more.
I'm curious if there is an actual tuition hike.
It's easy to see that an affluent foreigner would go to a school without the need for financial assistance, thus "paying more" without technically being charged more.

Either way, Harvard is becoming a social petrie dish for some racially motivated experiment. Might be good, who knows. But at the base level any purposeful manipulation based on race is by pure definition racism.
Which in my opinion is their right. I just think it should be duly noted and reported honestly.

victor809 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Tail... note i said it is trying to make you panic and it is trying to manipulate you. I never said you are being manipulated (Not saying you aren't either... I reserve the right to make that decision later).

tailgater Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Vic, you're just parsing words so you can ignore the blatant racism at Harvard.
frankj1 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
are we assuming that those accepted were not qualified?
delta1 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
tailgater wrote:
Cliff notes please.

But the title raises questions:

What about private schools?

And I don't care about who PAYS more.
I'm curious if there is an actual tuition hike.
It's easy to see that an affluent foreigner would go to a school without the need for financial assistance, thus "paying more" without technically being charged more.

Either way, Harvard is becoming a social petrie dish for some racially motivated experiment. Might be good, who knows. But at the base level any purposeful manipulation based on race is by pure definition racism.
Which in my opinion is their right. I just think it should be duly noted and reported honestly.



you're a lazy bassturd...that article is only a couple of paragraphs longer than that in the OP.

I went to the Harvard University site. It is a private college, and it seems that Harvard doesn't charge more for out of state/international students: foreigners and out-of-state students pay the same tuition as all other undergrads. But the international students typically pay more out of pocket and receive far less financial aid. The incoming class included about 15% foreign students. Total minority population of the incoming class is about 50%. So whites should still be the largest demographic on campus...phewww...thank heaven...

All public colleges and universities in CA, and public schools in most states, charge a higher non-resident/international tuition rate than for in-state residents. The CA community college rate was about 5 times the rate per unit as for state residents...
tailgater Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
are we assuming that those accepted were not qualified?


No.
For argument's sake we'll assume they're all quite qualified.

tailgater Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
you're a lazy bassturd...


That's as far as I got.
frankj1 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
That's as far as I got.

love that!
frankj1 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
No.
For argument's sake we'll assume they're all quite qualified.


I had no follow up point.
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Just say somethin about his momma.. Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Well she is sorta ugly
tailgater Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
I had no follow up point.


That never stopped Victor.

delta1 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Isn't arguing that Harvard is making acceptance decisions based on racial quotas by pointing out "the majority of students accepted into the incoming freshman class are not white" a demand for a racial quota of white students?
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