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Opiate State of Emergency????
DrafterX Offline
#151 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Did you get the brain lightning..?? Huh
MACS Offline
#152 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
Non-violent, anti-social behavior that leads to petty theft, burglary, stealing other people's stuff... and stuff.
DrafterX Offline
#153 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I heard Victor sold his body for his opies... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#154 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
^152 That's like putting people in jail for crimes they may or may not commit. Not all drug users commit those crimes. I know several people who use MJ and other drugs, w/o prescription, and none of them commit any of those crimes. They are good peeps...prolly many like them in jail because they got caught with drugs, but not for any other crime.


Those that do commit theft and burglary and robbery should be caught and prosecuted and jailed.
DrafterX Offline
#155 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
but wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them drugs..?? Think
MACS Offline
#156 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
I didn't say that all drug users do those things, I said it leads to them. The ones who just 'use' drugs can usually still function, but (excluding marijuana) it almost always leads to drug abuse. Then you have an issue.

Every drug user in custody in our jails is in here for felony theft of some sort... because we no longer hold them for UTI or possession. They get cited and released.
MACS Offline
#157 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
DrafterX wrote:
but wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them drugs..?? Think


I've made that argument.
DrafterX Offline
#158 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
there should be a drug island where they can go live and do all the drugs they want... but they can't come back.. Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#159 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Not to speak for delta but I think he is saying if they commit those crimes punish them. No different then a non drug user committing the crime. But don’t make drugs the crime.

I agree. I also beleive a crime is a crime. Why is murder not as bad as murdering with hate? Same concept. The hate isn’t the crime, the murder is.

The more I look at it, while opioids have a role in temporary pain management, end of life, and cancer situations their benefits are often wayyyy over exaggerated and dubious.
MACS Offline
#160 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
My point, teedub... is not to make drugs the crime. I've already stated my position on that. Decriminalize all of it, and give it to them for free. Cheaper.

My point was, CA passed laws to do something similar in an effort to drop jail/prison populations. They made possession of many, many drugs a misdemeanor offense so they get cited and released... thinking this would do the trick.

It has NOT. Same guys are now in jail for the offenses I mentioned. Our jail is always full to capacity and we're forced to let these people out (non violent) to rob more people and come right back.

Since CA passed these laws, crime has gone UP, not down.
teedubbya Offline
#161 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I got you. I’ve not looked in to that data nor do I really care to an extent. What I mean by that is my intent isn’t to increase or decrease crime as a result, just to not have the drug be the crime.

But I get your take.
DrafterX Offline
#162 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
off topic a little maybe but what do you guys do with illegals Macs..?? Mellow
MACS Offline
#163 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
DrafterX wrote:
off topic a little maybe but what do you guys do with illegals Macs..?? Mellow


10 years ago, when I started... we'd hold them and ICE would come get them. Now we no longer have a working relationship with ICE and we're no longer supposed to call them. Once the release paperwork is signed, we walk 'em out.
DrafterX Offline
#164 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
but you smack around a little bit first right..?? Huh
MACS Offline
#165 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
DrafterX wrote:
but you smack around a little bit first right..?? Huh


No can do... DVR cameras are everywhere. Plus... I'm old, and some of these dudes would whoop my old ass.
frankj1 Offline
#166 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
a lot of posts on a topic called Opiate State of Emergency

and yet we've only addressed the addiction issues of the poorer members of society...the ones that dominate the headlines and shape the public opinion on the subject...the only ones that end up in jail. Generally because they need the funds to feed the habit.

This has the unintentional result in ignoring another large segment of the population, the addicts with affordability. I referenced the owner of the Colts somewhere days ago as an example of why the war on drugs unintentionally became a war on race...I should have said a war on poor.

If addiction were addressed differently, or the drugs in question were handled differently, wealthy and poor addicts might both be able to avoid crimes leading to jail. And the problem of addiction itself, not the crime of theft it births, might be better contained.
DrafterX Offline
#167 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
ya, nobody has mentioned Elvis or Prince.. and dozens of other millionaires with doctors in their pockets... Mellow
cacman Offline
#168 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Drugmaker set to profit from an opioid it said was unsafe
By David Heath, Ciara Bri'd Frisbie and Aaron Kessler, CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/health/opana-endo-opioid-profit/index.html
frankj1 Offline
#169 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
DrafterX wrote:
ya, nobody has mentioned Elvis or Prince.. and dozens of other millionaires with doctors in their pockets... Mellow

funny, and yet to the point.

but there are thousands of middle and upper middle class families with unjailed addicts in their families, same addictions, but no need to mug an old lady.

we react to the addicted muggers, not to addiction.
DrafterX Offline
#170 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
ya, I think my Grandmother was addicted to Valiums... she'd get mad as hell when I 'd help myself to a few... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#171 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
frank, the genius wif words, made the case simply and elegantly...


Is Limbaugh good with the War on Opioids?
cacman Offline
#172 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
[quote=frankjbut there are thousands of middle and upper middle class families with unjailed addicts in their families, same addictions, but no need to mug an old lady.[/quote]
Agree completely frank, and the reason for my continued posts.
frankj1 Offline
#173 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
cacman wrote:
[quote=frankjbut there are thousands of middle and upper middle class families with unjailed addicts in their families, same addictions, but no need to mug an old lady.

Agree completely frank, and the reason for my continued posts.
[/quote]
thanks, Carl.
It's a gut wrencher for the people who's families are untouched by addiction and only see incarceration stats for info to define the issue.

It adds the element of feeling unsafe on the streets which understandably takes precedence to individuals over the bigger picture.Any chance it's cheaper to pay for a month at Betty Ford than prison...HA!
cacman Offline
#174 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
frankj1 wrote:
It adds the element of feeling unsafe on the streets...

Hell, it adds the element of feeling unsafe when visiting your doctor, and trusting what he/she is prescribing.

FDA reviewing safety of opioid highlighted in CNN report
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/03/us/opana-er-followup/index.html
teedubbya Offline
#175 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
One of the panelists in one of our plenary sessions this week was a really cool dude. Born and raised in Kansas to a middle class family. Grew up hunting and fishing. After high school joined the Navy for a couple tours was deployed and decorated for valor (don’t ask me not sure specifics).

Got out and went to a prestigious school and received multiple degrees. Was a hot commodity, got hired by IBM and ultimately rose to be one of their world division leaders in a specific tech (I won’t say). One day he was in Beijing visiting his counterparts when his foot got caught between the train and the subway platform.

He had been hurt in the war, and figured he could withstand this. They fixed him up pretty good and everything looked normal. But there was always unexplained phantom pain. Pain that was excruciating if the wind, a dogs tail or anything touched it.

This is a known phenomenon. He was treated with opioids and to make a long story short relied on them. It got to the point both the disease and the drug were effing him up. The drugs were now part of the problem. He said his only choices at the time were to cut the leg off or kill himself.

He was an addict not through lack of personal control or choice. He’s still here, and not on opioids but still struggling. He wants to get people away from the drug using criminal no self control thinking. Unfortunately I had to leave the room when he discussed his path to recovery. I had to host another session. As an aside the Jewish doctor that helped him was killed by a guy that shot up a temple here (national news)

The session I left for was a similar story of a guy with a similar background. His addiction started with prescription pain pills and when he got cut off moved to heroin. All due to legitimate pain followed by legitimate pain or perceived pain.

One day he had no heroine and was getting sick from withdrawal. He looked up a methadone clinic thinking he’d catch a buzz then find heroine and keep going.

He knew he was dying, felt trapped and just knew he likely had less than a year left. He didn’t want to be in that situation but just accepted it as his reality. He thought about suicide but figured there was no need. He’d be gone soon anyway.

When he went to the methadone clinic something odd happened. It took care of his sickness but didn’t buzz him. He then turned back to heroine but couldn’t get the high from it due to the methadone. (I’m bringing a long story that dove tailed this together).

He now had no sickness, but also no high. It gave him hope. Ultimately he kicked the heroine and is no longer on methadone. He is gainfully employed and you’d never guess his past. His first trip to the methadone clinic was roughly 10 years ago. It’s no 9-10 years passed when he knew his certain death. He now has life (including a family)

This crisis is not about self control, personal responsibility, lower class or crime. The crime part bothers me because some choose to focus there but this is not a criminal issue. That’s small potatoes and very blinded vision.

This is an insidious crisis effecting all walks of life and is not always, or even usually the fault of the user. It’s much more complicated than that.

Can politics be blamed? Sure. Can big pharma and advertising etc be blamed? Sure. Kickbacks and bad doctors? Sure. I’d not knock down too much in this thread as being “wrong”. But I would say much of the conversation is myopic and simplistic. Maybe not wrong, but certainly doesn’t capture the problem.

It’s complicated without an easy fix. The break out path I followed this week was mostly accute care settings because that’s where my help was needed. But there were ultimately several other breakout sessions based on other settings and issues. Each was filled with professionals trying to get their arms around things.

Fascinating week.


Disclaimer- I was merely listening to powerful stories of people’s experiences and am relaying extremely paraphrased versions. I don’t and can’t capture the extent of how moving the stories were first hand and I can’t possibly be as specific or accurate as they were.
cacman Offline
#176 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Opioid-Crisis Cost Revised to $504 Billion in Sixfold Surge
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-20/trump-economists-say-opioid-crisis-much-bigger-than-envisioned
DrafterX Offline
#177 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Are they including Tylenol now..?? Mellow
dstieger Offline
#178 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
teedubbya wrote:

This crisis is not about self control, personal responsibility, lower class or crime.


I'm not totally buying this yet. Even your example panelists (esp the first) could be said to have fallen, in part, due to lack of self control. And even if I buy into the argument, I think that there is still a VERY large percentage of 'affected people' that come up short in the 'personal responsibility' and 'making good choices' departments.

I still maintain that insurance and health care industries bear a good portion of responsibility, and we don't hear that enough.

I get that its complicated....and I'm not close enough to get into the gray weeds. So, for me, I'll continue to blame weak people, big pharma, big insurance, and big health care....none of which are likely to get fixed by spending my tax dollars.

I'm fortunate only to have been peripherally touched (a relative who was never capable of making good choices...about anything), so maybe my perspective will be adjusted and empathy turned up when it hits closer to home.
dstieger Offline
#179 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
BTW, in this day and age of neural work, genetic adjusting, and talk of head transplants....seems there must be a way of measuring pain. I know that individual experiences, response, tolerance, etc will make the levels seem different to different people, but can't we at least get stick a probe into a person and measure pain somewhat objectively?
teedubbya Offline
#180 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Maybe we should use the does it hurt as bad as this standard. you know start with picks and hammers all the way up to flaming cactus up the bung. they can say when the pain is equivalent and we have a basis.

DrafterX Offline
#181 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
The body does weird chit... After my knee surgery my back didn't hurt at all.... Now that knee is better my back hurts again.. Mellow
Ewok126 Offline
#182 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
dstieger wrote:
BTW, in this day and age of neural work, genetic adjusting, and talk of head transplants....seems there must be a way of measuring pain. I know that individual experiences, response, tolerance, etc will make the levels seem different to different people, but can't we at least get stick a probe into a person and measure pain somewhat objectively?



Nope, we can measure a person's pain tolerance, Where the issue comes in is the person's sensitivity to pain. Example we already know that women can take way more pain on average than men even though our neurological systems are basicly the same. We can test to make sure the sensory nerves are working properly etc. Another good example is ever have a migraine? When I get them my eyes become so sensitive to light and to sound. I can see the 60 hz frequency in florescent lights. I can also hear the hum of the 60hz frequency traveling in electronic equipment. This sensitivity is nowhere near that intense on a regular basis until the migraine takes place for me.

If pain is administered at the exact same amount for say me, my wife, and you the outcome of the results using a 1 - 10 scale could be what I would call a lvl 7 of pain my wife would call a 3 but for you it might be at lvl "OMG I just saw Jesus!" because the sensitivity is absolutely different for everyone. Then throw in everyone is different on medication reactions. with my lvl 7 and how my body deals with Opiates it might take one pill every 4 hours to control my lvl 7, two pills for my wife to control 3, and half a pill every 8 hours to control your lvl of "OMG I just saw Jesus" This is why we are not able to test or measure pain objectively to come up with a set standard for everyone. Then throw in the people that are addicts and say that they have a lvl 10 when really its a 1 to them and they lie just to get stronger or more meds.

This is why we have cheap drunks and expensive drunks, it's a physical sensitivity issue and tolerance issue.
cacman Offline
#183 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Life expectancy in US down for second year in a row as opioid crisis deepens
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/21/us-life-expectancy-down-for-second-year-in-a-row-amid-opioid-crisis

Decline marks first time in half a century that longevity has declined for two years in a row – with drug overdoses ‘the key driver’, researcher says.

Life expectancy in the US has declined for the second year in a row as the opioid crisis continues to ravage the nation.

It is the first time in half a century that there have been two consecutive years of declining life expectancy.

Drug overdoses killed 63,600 Americans in 2016, an increase of 21% over the previous year, researchers at the National Center for Health Statistics found.

Americans can now expect to live 78.6 years, a decrease of 0.1 years. The US last experienced two years’ decline in a row in 1963, during the height of the tobacco epidemic and amid a wave of flu.

“We do occasionally see a one-year dip, even that doesn’t happen that often, but two years in a row is quite striking,” said Robert Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch with the National Center for Health Statistics. “And the key driver of that is the increase in drug overdose mortality.”

Especially disconcerting, said Anderson, was preliminary data researchers received about overdoses in 2017: “It doesn’t look any better.” Together, the drug overdose epidemic and a plateau in improved mortality rates from cardiovascular disease are “affecting the entire national picture”.

“We haven’t seen more than two years in a row in declining life expectancy since the Spanish flu – 100 years ago,” said Anderson. “We would be entering that sort of territory, which is extremely concerning.”

Widely available prescription painkillers opened the gates for a new universe of legal and illegal opioid abuse beginning in about 1999. The number of Americans killed by overdoses has increased each year since then. As of 2015, more than half a million Americans had died from drug overdoses.

The new data from NCHS shows that powerful synthetic opioids such as fentanyl have emerged as the latest threat. Between 2015 and 2016, the rate of deaths from synthetic opioids doubled, from 3.1 deaths per 100,000 to 6.2.

In 2015, 16.3 people for every 100,000 living in the US died of a drug overdose. That rate increased by 21% in 2016, when 19.8 people for every 100,000 died of a drug overdose.

“What we’re seeing now is the second wave of this epidemic,” said Anna Lembke, a behavioral sciences professor at Stanford University and an addiction expert. “The first wave started with physicians overprescribing … The second wave has translated into widespread, increased use of illicit opioids, of heroin, of fentanyl, of heroin laced with fentanyl.”

Those numbers vary widely by age and geography. For example, while drug overdose death rates increased in every age demographic in 2016, people between 25 and 54 had the highest rates of overdoses, at 35 deaths per 100,000 people.

The five states with the worst death rates topped even those numbers. West Virginia nearly tripled the national average – 52 people for every 100,000 died of an overdose there. Ohio, New Hampshire, Washington DC and Pennsylvania followed: all hovered around 38 overdose deaths for every 100,000.

The life expectancy of men was especially affected in the US. Women’s life expectancy at birth remained at 81.1 years in 2016, but life expectancy for men declined by 0.2 years, to 76.1 years. It also made accidental death the third-leading cause of death in the US, replacing chronic lower respiratory disease.

“This is going to take a good 10 to 20 years to really turn around,” said Lembke.

“We’ve got multiple generations of people that are already addicted, and it’s going to be a real struggle to help those people.”

Despite years of warnings about the growing epidemic, congressional leaders have often failed to do more than convene commissions and panels and draw up white papers. Most recently, Donald Trump declared America’s overdose epidemic a public health emergency, but little new funding has materialized. Further, Republican proposals threatened to gut government health programs, such as Medicaid, that treat a disproportionate number of opioid addicts.

“One-time grants are ultimately not going to change the course of this epidemic,” said Lembke. “It’s going to require systemic changes, infrastructure changes, changes in the ways that healthcare delivery happens.”

Data in the latest NCHS report was collected from death certificates in all 50 states, and compiled into the National Vital Statistics System.

---

Guberment-controlled healthcare = guberment created addiction to precription drugs. But don't worry, it's covered by your guberment-controlled healthcare insurance.
Gene363 Offline
#184 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,787
We have too many people anyway, maybe we pile that crap up on street corners and let's have at the stuff.
victor809 Offline
#185 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I think you're a little off on this. My best understanding of the demographics of the opioid crisis is that it's a pretty white-collar demographic. That group would be getting insurance paid prescriptions regardless of whether the government was controlling their healthcare insurance.

This crisis has been growing for a lot longer than the ACA was in place. I remember selling off my percocet back in 2001....
cacman Offline
#186 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Doctor faces charges over opioid prescriptions and 5 patient deaths
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/health/doctor-opioid-prescription/index.html

(CNN)A Pennsylvania doctor charged with causing the deaths of five patients by unlawfully prescribing opioids surrendered his license to prescribe controlled substances at a federal court hearing Friday, officials said.

Dr. Raymond Kraynak -- whom prosecutors say prescribed nearly 3 million doses of opioids from January 2016 to July -- was released from custody Friday after posting a $500,000 bond, the US attorney's office for the Middle District of Pennsylvania said.

Kraynak awaits trial at a date yet to be determined.

Kraynak, 60, of Mount Carmel, was arrested Thursday. He is accused of, among other things, causing five deaths of patients between 2013 and 2015 by "unlawfully distributing and dispensing controlled substances" to them, according to the US Justice Department.

Prosecutors also allege that Kraynak, between 2005 and 2016, prescribed opioids "without a legitimate medical purpose' and "without conducting a proper medical examination," the US attorney's office said.

He is accused of failing to verify patients' medical complaints adequately and patients' risk of abuse before prescribing the drugs, the prosecution said.

Opioids now kill more people than breast cancer.

Kraynak, who had offices in the central Pennsylvania communities of Mount Carmel and Shamokin, pleaded not guilty in an initial court appearance Thursday, prosecutors said.

Kraynak treated people in a small part of Pennsylvania where doctors are scarce, public defender Thomas Thornton said.

"At this point, we really haven't had a chance to see the evidence against him," his attorney said. "We're more concerned about his patients right now."

The US attorney's office alleges that Kraynak was the top prescriber in the state for opioids, writing ones for about 2.7 million doses of oxycodone, hydrocodone, oxycontin and fentanyl within 19 months. Those prescriptions were written for about 2,838 patients [over 950 pills per patient.]

"The sheer number of pills prescribed in this case is staggering," US Attorney David Freed said in a statement. "Death or serious injury was the inevitable result of this defendant's conduct."

Kraynak is facing 19 charges, including five counts of the unlawful distribution and dispensing of a controlled substance resulting in death, 12 counts of prescribing controlled substances outside the usual course of professional practice and two counts of maintaining drug-involved premises at his offices.

It's not unprecedented for a doctor to be charged with causing the death of a patient through prescriptions. There have been similar cases in the past several years where doctors were held accountable in the deaths of patients who overdosed on opioid painkillers that had been prescribed.

In 2015, a doctor in Southern California was convicted of second-degree murder for the overdose deaths of three patients. She was sentenced to 30 years to life in prison.

In the Kraynak case, the government seeks the forfeiture of two medical offices, his medical license and $500,000, according to a DOJ statement announcing the indictment.

If convicted, Kraynak faces a mandatory 20 years to life in prison for each of the counts involving the five patients. The other 14 charges are each punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

The charges were the result of an investigation by the Drug Enforcement Administration, with assistance from state and local police.

Kraynak has a license in osteopathic medicine and had come to attention of the state board for his prescription practices. In 2012, he agreed to complete a medical course after prescribing large amounts of "various controlled substances" to seven patients from January 2007 through June 2008. The record does not identify what he had prescribed. The State Board of Osteopathic Medicine fined Kraynak $2,500.

The United States is in the throes of an opioid epidemic as more Americans have become dependent or abuse prescription pain pills and street drugs. More than 63,600 lives were lost to drug overdose in 2016, marking the most lethal year yet of the drug overdose epidemic, according to a report released this week.

CNN's Gabriela Milian and Debra Goldschmidt contributed to this report.

---

The opiod crisis is NOT a "pretty white-collar demographic". Take off those blinders. Percentage of opiod prescriptions abused tends to be highest in the rural South. (http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/4-nc-towns-in-top-20-nationally-for-opioid-abuse-study/398956269)

Yes, this crisis has been growing for a lot longer than the ACA was in place. But the over-presccribing and abuse of prescription drugs has increased dramatically since the Big O was given the office of Prez and forced the ACA on everyone. Insurance pays the Doc. Big Pharma pays the Doc. And the patient pays the Doc.
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