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Demise of B&M cigar retailers
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CamoRoon Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 8:46 AM EST
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
I just read this article written in 2015. Perhaps things have improved for B&M shops but I doubt it.

Today the cigar industry is not only controlled by the on-line discounters but the majority of the sales come
from just the very few at the very top, this is what concerns me most. The biggest players now control over
50% of all the sales and those biggest players are mostly manufacturers who sell directly to the brick and
mortar retail shop owners and today to the end-user at the online sites they now own.

In recent years we have been told that newspapers and books (or at least bookstores) will disappear. I know that gas stations that can actually do mechanical work (which were everywhere in my youth) are about extinct. In my hometown there used to be a lot of corner bars. They are for the most part no longer open. The face of retail is changing drastically across the board. If the value of the average citizen's income stays level or drops, I have to assume the flight to cheaper prices will continue to expand. I am thinking we may see B&M cigar outlets disappear in low traffic areas where the number of customers may be insufficient to be profitable at anything but MSRP prices. I wonder if this may be the moment in time for growth in the number of B&M private cigar clubs, especially for those not located near large cigar lounges which are open to the public. We live in a society that is constantly pushing to eliminate freedom of speech, guns and smoking (and lots of other things to a lesser degree). Those who are financially well off have always had their private clubs and John Q Public may have to start thinking similarly
bgz Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 8:56 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Remember the time when you could just tie up your horse outside and get a drink and enjoy a hooker in the same establishment... and possibly see a duel if you finished up with your ho in time...

Ya, me either.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 8:56 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,423
Soo many closings...and nowhere to buy shpo cigars!


No wonder the price here has crept up and up and up and up.
Mandoman Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 9:13 AM EST
Joined: 12-27-2005
Posts: 4,761
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Soo many closings...and nowhere to buy shpo cigars!


No wonder the price here has crept up and up and up and up.



True.
And no shpo owner there to protect you.
shaun341 Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 9:20 AM EST
Joined: 08-02-2012
Posts: 8,826
It's no surprise, online retailers have been driving B&Ms out of business in every category consumers need and want. Toys R Us, Kmart, and JC Penny are what comes to mind most recently.
Groceries are next to be punished by the online retailer now that Amazon is entering the market. First to the online market tends to dominate and it is really hard to overtake that competitive advantage.

Viscous cycle we have created here in ways to lose jobs. No increase in blue collar wages for 30 years + cost of living increases continue = value shopping and creates a mass need for outsourcing and reducing overhead at all costs.
delta1 Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 12:47 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Especially in CA, where add-on taxes to the MSRP of each cigar makes them priced way above the on-line price...there aren't any good B & M shpos in the town I moved to a year and a half ago...I haven't been back to the few that were decent in the old home town...one of them opened up an on-line site, specializing in small batch cigars...
tonygraz Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 2:21 PM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,247
I have yet to buy a cigar in a total cigar shop, unless you count an online retailer's store that I can't mention. We had one about 20 miles away that closed up about 3 years ago and I went in there once and didn't buy anything because the prices were too high. I'll be going to New Hampshire this summer and there are 2 stores there I may check out. New Hampshire has no cigar tax and no state sales tax, so I just may buy something.
stinger88 Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2018, 8:17 PM EST
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 6,574
We have a couple near me here in Florida.

As for Oklahoma, they were trying to put a HUGE tax on tobacco so they could pay for schools. They were trying to punish a market that they don't like so that they could continue to poorly run their school system. The first try....deemed unconstitutional. The second try, I think got voted down. Not sure....I was already on the move to Florida.

David
cacman Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 12:26 AM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
^^^ Have to laugh at this out of disgust David.

In our area they passed a HUGE tax on MJ to fund schools and mental health services. Now MJ is literally taxed more than tobacco. And tobacco has a State sin tax of 40%, not counting the taxes individual towns and counties apply.

Our closest B&Ms are n hour to a hour-and-a-half away, and offer a very limited and poor selection. Next closest B&M is Denver and almost 3hrs away. The CAO Brazilia (noted by one member as being the "King of Cigars") will cost you $8-9. A basic Padron lonsdale I used to buy in the city before I moved would that cost $4 now costs $10 including all he stupid taxes. One local liquor store offers Fratello coronas for $13

I buy online exclusively from all over the Country. Except for NHC out of Ohio (Dan Welsh of L'Atelier Cigars) which has been known for reporting their cigar sales to the Sate guberments for the collection of State sin taxes due.
RMAN4443 Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 1:15 AM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
tonygraz wrote:
I have yet to buy a cigar in a total cigar shop, unless you count an online retailer's store that I can't mention. We had one about 20 miles away that closed up about 3 years ago and I went in there once and didn't buy anything because the prices were too high. I'll be going to New Hampshire this summer and there are 2 stores there I may check out. New Hampshire has no cigar tax and no state sales tax, so I just may buy something.

Tony,I live up in NH....what shops you looking to visit? There are a couple of good ones in my area near Concord NH....if you want to know who or what just pm me and I might be able to point you in the right direction Beer
Just Relax Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 6:45 AM EST
Joined: 09-26-2016
Posts: 587
About the only time I go to a B&M is when I'm out of town on business and it's too cold outside or the smoking area at the hotel is in a crappy location. I'll pick up a nice coffee and pay a bit more to sit and smoke one in their comfy lounge.
tonygraz Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 8:44 AM EST
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,247
RMAN4443 wrote:
Tony,I live up in NH....what shops you looking to visit? There are a couple of good ones in my area near Concord NH....if you want to know who or what just pm me and I might be able to point you in the right direction Beer


Thanks, but the 2 I'm looking at are in the White Mountains (North Conway).
danmdevries Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 8:55 AM EST
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,365
There's a cigar shpo near me that I've only visited a few times, in a location two buildings ago. They first downsized but kept saying they were going to be expanding. I didn't believe them. They had a lot of HTF stuff, but it was priced accordingly. No walk-in, just lined the perimeter of the building with cabinets.

They bought an old tire shop building and somehow got licensing for a cigar bar. Indiana prohibits selling food/drink to be consumed on site in a tobacco shpo according to the shpo that protects me. Though that was many years ago, things may have changed. But the one I used to frequent had to get rid of their fridge and coffee maker. This was probably 2014ish.

Anyhow, the first shpo now has a huge location with full bar, often has full meals available for weekends or special events. They have a great stock, and always seem to be fairly busy judging by the cars in the lot. I've not been to the new location though I've seen pictures.

Seems like there's still a market, and still money to be made, but it's consolidated. 4 small smoke shops that had (poorly maintained) walk ins nearby have gone out of business in the last 5 years or so. There's two left, the small one I used to frequent, and the large one I never been to. There's billboards along I94 for another one a bit further east that I've not been to either but considering 1k/mo for a small billboard on that corridor, they've gotta be making some money.

SmokeMonkey Offline
#14 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 9:16 AM EST
Joined: 04-05-2015
Posts: 5,688
I’m probably a 50/50 buyer, but I’m fortunate to have a handful of good shops nearby. I appreciate that and try to spend in them to keep them available.
adstout Offline
#15 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 8:30 PM EST
Joined: 01-27-2018
Posts: 2
exactly what purpose does a B&M cigar shop serve if i can buy online at a 40% discount? i'm not talking about a cigar bar where you go in, have a drink and smoke. simply buying cigars. why buy from someone probably getting their cigars from the same online shop we have access to and marking up the price.
RMAN4443 Offline
#16 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 9:16 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
adstout wrote:
exactly what purpose does a B&M cigar shop serve if i can buy online at a 40% discount? i'm not talking about a cigar bar where you go in, have a drink and smoke. simply buying cigars. why buy from someone probably getting their cigars from the same online shop we have access to and marking up the price.

I go for the people, the pool table, the card games, the chess games, the sports on tv, the well stocked byob fridge and bar, the library space,the cool chit everywhere you look....did I miss anything?......Oh yeah, the cigars Anxious
KingoftheCove Offline
#17 Posted: Thu, Mar 22 2018, 11:14 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,632
RMAN4443 wrote:
I go for the people, the pool table, the card games, the chess games, the sports on tv, the well stocked byob fridge and bar, the library space,the cool chit everywhere you look....did I miss anything?......Oh yeah, the cigars Anxious

Must be nice to have a shpo like THAT.
Never lucky enough to live close enough to a decent B&M.
RMAN4443 Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Mar 23 2018, 4:38 AM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
KingoftheCove wrote:
Must be nice to have a shpo like THAT.
Never lucky enough to live close enough to a decent B&M.

Yeah, it's pretty nice, and very comfortable, not a stuffy type place, just regular guys.....I really enjoy it in the winter cause you can relax indoors and smoke with a bunch of like minded people and be yourself, and the prices are reasonable...
about $10 for an Ashton or $8 for a Lot 23......well worth the extra cost for all they have to offer....Chit 10 bucks and I have a nice warm place to smoke and shoot pool for a few hours on the weekends Herfing
KingoftheCove Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:15 AM EST
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,632
RMAN4443 wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty nice, and very comfortable, not a stuffy type place, just regular guys.....I really enjoy it in the winter cause you can relax indoors and smoke with a bunch of like minded people and be yourself, and the prices are reasonable...
about $10 for an Ashton or $8 for a Lot 23......well worth the extra cost for all they have to offer....Chit 10 bucks and I have a nice warm place to smoke and shoot pool for a few hours on the weekends Herfing

What....... now you want to rub it in!
Lucky bass turd!

Your shpo has weird prices though.
Lemee see.........$8 for a Lot 23.......or $10 for an Ashton???
Hmmm..............tough choice...
deadeyedick Offline
#20 Posted: Fri, Mar 23 2018, 8:39 AM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,087
I'm also lucky to have several great shpos close in my area. Some offer full bars and some are BYO but all have many big screens and a very good selection. It's seems it's the taxes that determines how successful a shpo can be.

I usually have great weather for outdoor smoking on my patio but try to support my locals anyway.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#21 Posted: Fri, Mar 23 2018, 9:45 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Alls I gots is a big casino with a tax free cigar shop next door... $6 for an 858 (in California!), $8 for a lebijou... at least in this state, taxes are the demise of the b&m...
joeman Offline
#22 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2018, 1:24 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 26
Most of the ones in my neck of the woods have gotten into vape big time. It mostly takes up the space on the floor that used to have humidors, lighters, etc.
delta1 Offline
#23 Posted: Tue, Mar 27 2018, 1:58 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
yeah...cigar stores are going the way of vinyl shops...
joeman Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 2:00 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 26
A lot of the big cigar/tobacco companies are opening their own brick and mortar stores now. That really is bad for the mom and pops.
jjanecka Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 2:29 PM EST
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I dunno about y'all but I really want my cigar bars back.
danmdevries Offline
#26 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 6:42 PM EST
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 17,365
KingoftheCove wrote:
What....... now you want to rub it in!
Lucky bass turd!

Your shpo has weird prices though.
Lemee see.........$8 for a Lot 23.......or $10 for an Ashton???
Hmmm..............tough choice...


Mine is similar.

$7-8 is their cheapest stuff, you can get some Aging Room, CAO, RyJ, RP, etc for 8-12 bucks. Hell, i think Acids start at 10 and go up from there

But $16-20 gets you a God of Fire.

Real premiums are priced well. Standards are not.
ZRX1200 Offline
#27 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 8:13 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
My shpo protects me.
Edrawdon Offline
#28 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:01 PM EST
Joined: 08-31-2011
Posts: 185
I went in to one today and holy crap was the guy working annoying. I guess because I’m a millennial there is a certain stereotype around my age group. However, after showing that I wasn’t a completely useless beta male, the shop owner should have let up instead of making it clear I didn’t belong in his humidor. I expressed my know how in the industry and made it very clear of the specific blends i tend to enjoy and this guy would not quit looking over my shoulder. He wouldn’t leave me alone as i was attempting to browse his selection. I was wearing proper attire and had a proper attitude but this guy was a total chit. Needless to say I will not be going back to this specific humidor/lounge.

I tend to get this quite a lot from stores. I have every intention of becoming a regular and to help them keep there store in the black but most of the time because I’m not 50 or better in age I get the side eye. So from my experience, the heck with most BM.
Abrignac Offline
#29 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:11 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
Edrawdon wrote:
I went in to one today and holy crap was the guy working annoying. I guess because I’m a millennial there is a certain stereotype around my age group. However, after showing that I wasn’t a completely useless beta male, the shop owner should have let up instead of making it clear I didn’t belong in his humidor. I expressed my know how in the industry and made it very clear of the specific blends i tend to enjoy and this guy would not quit looking over my shoulder. He wouldn’t leave me alone as i was attempting to browse his selection. I was wearing proper attire and had a proper attitude but this guy was a total chit. Needless to say I will not be going back to this specific humidor/lounge.

I tend to get this quite a lot from stores. I have every intention of becoming a regular and to help them keep there store in the black but most of the time because I’m not 50 or better in age I get the side eye. So from my experience, the heck with most BM.


He probably liked your cologne. Did he hump your leg?
Edrawdon Offline
#30 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:18 PM EST
Joined: 08-31-2011
Posts: 185
No humping but there was a definite slurping nose that had a level of creep factor I’ve never heard. In all seriousness though, I’ve now been smoking premiums for well over ten years and I know what I’m talking about. I don’t represent the generation I’m lumped into. I’m just as annoyed as everyone else is with my generations entitlement issues. I don’t get offended by people stereotyping people of age but it’s annoying that they think I am not capable of enjoying fine cigars.

I get it at all places though. Me and Emmy wife were shopping for a well crafted solid wood dresser and the sales associate quickly pointed us in the direction of the cheapest stuff they offer. It’s kind of comical at times.
Abrignac Offline
#31 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:22 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
Edrawdon wrote:
No humping but there was a definite slurping nose that had a level of creep factor I’ve never heard. In all seriousness though, I’ve now been smoking premiums for well over ten years and I know what I’m talking about. I don’t represent the generation I’m lumped into. I’m just as annoyed as everyone else is with my generations entitlement issues. I don’t get offended by people stereotyping people of age but it’s annoying that they think I am not capable of enjoying fine cigars.

I get it at all places though. Me and Emmy wife were shopping for a well crafted solid wood dresser and the sales associate quickly pointed us in the direction of the cheapest stuff they offer. It’s kind of comical at times.


Get to know the guy. Find out what interests him. He's prolly a decent guy. Who knows you guys might become great friends. On the other hand, he might only be interested in humping your leg.
Edrawdon Offline
#32 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:46 PM EST
Joined: 08-31-2011
Posts: 185
I made my peace not to go back. I purchased a tabernacle out of respect for the industry and I’ll just frequent a competing store when I’m seeking out specific singles. I don’t want to chance getting any extra leg humping, I get enough of that arrack from the neighbors dog.
frankj1 Offline
#33 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
probably cuz you're black.
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:55 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
yes, I'm kidding...
Edrawdon Offline
#35 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 9:59 PM EST
Joined: 08-31-2011
Posts: 185
Better watch out, I’m a millennial and get easily offended about everything and don’t have the capability in understanding humor.
KingoftheCove Offline
#36 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 10:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,632
Edrawdon wrote:
Better watch out, I’m a millennial and get easily offended about everything and don’t have the capability in understanding humor.

Frank has periods throughout the day, where he not like a genius........and stuff...
I get worried...
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 10:13 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
it's inexplicable. One minute I'm like a genius, then suddenly I'm like a idiot.
Luke753 Offline
#38 Posted: Tue, Apr 3 2018, 11:45 PM EST
Joined: 08-28-2016
Posts: 857
I've always thought it would be nice to have my own shpo. It was actually the wife's idea. And I've found a great building in a prime location. It even had brewing tanks if they're still there. But I'm just too scared to gamble on it. She knows I need to get away from the 23 years of killing my body. But it's one of the top paying jobs around here and I don't pay a dime for family insurance. #slavetomyjob
qmech Offline
#39 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 12:13 AM EST
Joined: 06-17-2016
Posts: 970
Hi
I wonder when the state and Federal governments will crack down on online sales ....
Q
qmech Offline
#40 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 12:14 AM EST
Joined: 06-17-2016
Posts: 970
I guess that would be the time to live near an Indian reservation..
Q
bigw Offline
#41 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 3:30 AM EST
Joined: 08-17-2001
Posts: 105
[quote=adstout]exactly what purpose does a B&M cigar shop serve if i can buy online at a 40% discount? i'm not talking about a cigar bar where you go in, have a drink and smoke. simply buying cigars. why buy from someone probably getting their cigars from the same online shop we have access to and marking up the price. [/quote

Maybe to try a new stick before committing to a box purchase?
bgz Offline
#42 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 9:01 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
ZRX1200 wrote:
My shpo protects me.


Wish I could find a shpo to protect me.

They all follow me around like this poor bastid trying to get me to buy their most expensive chit...

Come to think about it, sales reps almost always try to sell me they're most expensive chit.

They must think I'm rich or something... must be because I'm brown.
ZRX1200 Offline
#43 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 9:13 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
I'm brown where it counts.
joeman Offline
#44 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 9:22 AM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 26
bigw wrote:
[quote=adstout]exactly what purpose does a B&M cigar shop serve if i can buy online at a 40% discount? i'm not talking about a cigar bar where you go in, have a drink and smoke. simply buying cigars. why buy from someone probably getting their cigars from the same online shop we have access to and marking up the price. [/quote

Maybe to try a new stick before committing to a box purchase?


B&Ms are messed up because of what state they reside in. Some states have a 40% tobacco tax. Why are all of the online companies in PA, NH, NC, FL? Because those states have the lowest tobacco taxes. Your B&M also has to pay a floor tax when the tax increases in their state. That means that in addition to the taxes they pay on cigars coming in, they are also assessed the tax against what they already own in inventory.

Additionally they don't do a volume business like the online retailers do so they will have higher prices (and cost) to consider.

I do what you do a lot of time. I buy singles from my B&M. Now though there are new lines of cigars made for exclusively B&M, like Last Call, etc. I think this may help a bit. Ideally I want the best of both worlds. I want to go to a B&M sometimes and other times I want convenience and price of an online. I think if cigar makers were able to continue this trend, to have B&M lines and more general/online lines, there would be better coexistence. The FDA restrictions have come at a bad time for introducing anything new so we will see.
joeman Offline
#45 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 9:23 AM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 26
bgz wrote:
Wish I could find a shpo to protect me.

They all follow me around like this poor bastid trying to get me to buy their most expensive chit...

Come to think about it, sales reps almost always try to sell me they're most expensive chit.

They must think I'm rich or something... must be because I'm brown.


This drives me nuts. I don't frequent shops that follow me in the humidor. One and done.
bgz Offline
#46 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 10:03 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
joeman wrote:
This drives me nuts. I don't frequent shops that follow me in the humidor. One and done.


Oh, in a cigar shop I don't mind, because I want them to show me all the new smokes. I don't usually buy cigars I've already tried at a shpo unless they're some premiums that you can't really find at discount prices.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#47 Posted: Wed, Apr 4 2018, 10:50 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
ZRX1200 wrote:
I'm brown where it counts.

They do bleaching for that now...
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