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Last post 6 years ago by youngra. 15 replies replies.
Boveda question
CamoRoon Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
I am trying to understand something. Boveda packs contain various salts that have defined saturation points. So just as one uses table salt (sodium chloride) to test a hygrometer, these salts all release moisture up to a certain RH and absorb moisture above that RH. Now I was always under the impression that propylene glycol does the same thing. I am curious why one cannot just use damp salt in a container. From what I have read, the salt does not evaporate into the air unless you have some sort of agitation to disperse droplets. I know Boveda says they encase their product in semipermeable packets but what is coming out of the bag other than distilled water?
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
You could certainly use damp salt. There would be a few catches though, one is sourcing the salts and then getting the percentages of the various salts correct for your target RH. I suspect that the semi-permeable membrane is also part of the humidity equation for them too, but have been unable to confirm this. If you don't mind a bucket of open salt water in your humidor, it would probably work.
CamoRoon Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
It is in fact a paste when used to calibrate hygrometers. I am not promoting either scenario. I was just wondering if there are any reasons it could not work. The saturation points on the various salts can be found online and experimentation of mixtures could certainly arrive at any given % of RH. I guess the bigger question is whether there is anything in a slat that could possibly get airborne and have a negative effect on your cigars.
jjanecka Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Why not just buy bulk greenhouse beads set to 65% rh like heartfelt does?
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
CamoRoon wrote:
It is in fact a paste when used to calibrate hygrometers. I am not promoting either scenario. I was just wondering if there are any reasons it could not work. The saturation points on the various salts can be found online and experimentation of mixtures could certainly arrive at any given % of RH. I guess the bigger question is whether there is anything in a slat that could possibly get airborne and have a negative effect on your cigars.


Yes, when used to calibrate hygrometers, it is a paste. But that's just table salt and water. I was under the impression, maybe wrongly, that you wanted to duplicate the boveda formula for more specific RH targets. Their packs use a mixture of salts and other ingredients at various concentrations. They are actually a gelled liquid until they start to dry out.

In looking at the SDS sheets for the 62% through 78%, I see nothing outwardly dangerous. Water, sodium chloride (table salt), ammonium chloride (used in food production), potassium chloride (used in food production and available as dietary supplement), guar & xanthan gums (used in food as a thickener), citric acid (food production).

Some of the higher/lower RH packs and the oxygen scavenger pack have stuff in them that could be uncomfortable if ingested.

As for getting airborne, well, there is the obvious, you could end up with a cigar that has salt crystals on the wrapper.

Here's the link to the SDSs
https://bovedainc.com/safety-data-sheets/
CamoRoon Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
Thanks for that info. Just how would the salt crystals get into the air? I was under the impression that the pure water evaporates off and the salt is left behind. That is how they harvest salt from salt water to my understanding. But does any salt go into the air? Here's a one minute read https://www.quora.com/ Here is a link to a saturation point chart for a variety of salts. You will see that sodium chloride at 20 degrees C is about 75% (just where we calibrate a hygrometer). https://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z103.pdf I guess I am actually wondering why propylene glycol was the solution of choice for so long and then along comes Boveda doing exactly what people have been doing all along to create an relative humidity equillibrium using saturated salts.
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
Typically it's through external disturbance. I could see the possibility of some dried salts becoming airborne due to air currents from the door or lid.

Boveda is giving the option of maintaining humidity at something other than 70RH that propylene glycol solutions provide. And boveda made it convenient and disposable.
CamoRoon Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
Thunder.Gerbil wrote:
And boveda made it convenient and disposable.


That's the ticket. Somebody made it convenient before anybody else did and it appears at least some folks are regenerating them which in the long run makes them cheap also. I've never used them but I assume they generate the advertised RH at 70 degrees only.
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
CamoRoon wrote:
That's the ticket. Somebody made it convenient before anybody else did and it appears at least some folks are regenerating them which in the long run makes them cheap also. I've never used them but I assume they generate the advertised RH at 70 degrees only.


They are as predictable as any other passive humidifer.

I've rehydrated many of them, possibly even a bit over a hundred of them. I ran a bunch of tests on rehydrating them and if they actually work properly and best ways to rehydrate. The results are posted on another forum.

Anyway, they come back just fine so long as you don't over hydrate them. The small packs are 8 gram, including the packaging. The large ones are 50 gram. The jumbos which IIRC are 120 didn't exist at the time of the testing. If you go over the advertised weight, the pack will release moisture at an uncontrolled rate until it comes down to about the spec weight. At which point, it will become as accurate as a new pack, which is to say up to +/- 3% which is the accuracy spec per the manufacturer.

Doesn't mater how you rehydrate them, you can put them in a tupperwear container with a wet sponge and just wait, you can add heat to force more moisture into the environment, or you can dunk them in water. Sometimes the labels slough off when you leave them submerged for a time, although I seem to recall that this happened more on the older glossy white packs than the new ones.
bs_kwaj Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-13-2006
Posts: 5,214

I heard that propylene glycol is only used to keep mold from growing on the green foam stuff...

Beer
CamoRoon Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 03-04-2015
Posts: 153
bs_kwaj wrote:
I heard that propylene glycol is only used to keep mold from growing on the green foam stuff...

Beer


The propylene glycols was to do the exact same thing that Boveda bags do. Apparently 50% water and 50% PG equalizes the RH at about 70%. PG's vapor pressure at normal room temperature is negligible, so propylene glycol does not evaporate to any significant degree. However, it would seem that as the water evaporates and the PG does not, the 50/50 mixture would constantly be changing in favor of the PG. I also read on a Xikar website that the PG gradually breaks down into sugars and some other crap at about the same amount of time they recommend recharging. Prior I had always heard that the PG stayed in the oasis foam and did not require recharging with solution every time.

Propylene glycol is hygroscopic, meaning that it can pull water out of the air just as salt does but it does not appear to release water into the air like salt which is trying to come into a state of equillibrium. The water in the solution would like to evaporate and rise to 100% RH. PG acts as a humectant to inhibit the loss of water from a product. It appears that this humectant quality may be what limits the water evaporating into the humidor and the amount of PG required depends on the temperature and relative humidity.

If it does evaporate to a negligible degree I guess it could affect you cigars but if it breaks down (as Xikar says) do those subsequent materials evaporate to a greater degree. PG is added to foods and many other products that interact with your body so it must be reasonable non-toxic.




bs_kwaj Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-13-2006
Posts: 5,214

Now I have a headache....

Beer
Edrawdon Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-31-2011
Posts: 185
Definitely done your research. Always good to understand your product.
jjanecka Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
If it breaks down into sugars it's more or less safe.
youngra Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2011
Posts: 1,885
I just recharge my Boveda packets and use them over and over and over.
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