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At first I listened to them.

The more I read and saw of them I was revolted by them. I see them for what they are.

Children telling adults how to run the show? This isn't "Lord of the Flies" it's the United States of America. A nation built by laws that we govern ourselves by. The Grand Experiment it was called. Documents drafted and ratified by better men than the ones that govern us now.

To even think that a bunch of children would hold a rally and demonstrate to take away their God given rights is an affront to any learned person with an IQ above 13. Like it or not the Freedoms we hold dear, the Freedoms that people are willing to immigrate to (some even illegally! THAT'S how good we have it!!!) are all held together by the "teeth" that strengthens them. The 2nd Amendment. The rest are all predicated by that. You cannot have any of them without it. Don't believe me? Look at the nations that don't have them. They're either despot nations, war zones or nations where mass shootings STILL take place. The ability to take the yoke of Tyranny off of us or to right a severe course of action deemed necessary to keep this nation in check cannot and should never be questioned. EVER. Don't like guns? Don't own one. I personally believe everyone should know how to use the most basic of guns. A bolt action rifle and a revolver. Know how to field strip them, load them and use them. Nations such as Switzerland...that little peace magnet...have trained their citizens that way and have armed them. That's the 2nd Amendment on steroids. Then again, they're a bit more intelligent and sophisticated than us. I blame Puritanical teachings and hang ups on religion and authority, but that's me as to why we won't ever be there. We can't even have the autobahn here!

The same people you see whining and crying about taking your rights away...a retired Supreme Court Justice to boot (that quite clearly made an argument for term limits for the SC and age limits!) are the same people that want someone with a gun to protect them when they're being "infringed" upon.

This demonstration of absurdity created by children and backed by political operatives and Hollywood types is a joke. I'm willing to bet that world leaders are laughing their collective butts off at us over this. Eating ourselves from within with the Freedoms we have. Think about THAT the next time you see "Wild Hogg" or "Ripley" on your TV's, newspaper or internet. That alone should be used as the arbiter about how out of plumb the discussion on the matter has become. For all of their protestations they haven't stopped the gun violence and they won't. For some reason, nobody wants to tackle the root of the problem. Mental health. We can dance all around and craft laws that either aren't obeyed or enforced to the letter of the law, we can medicate the living crud out of anything yet still the violence carries out in state after state...city by city. Some worse than others. When we get real about that then hold a rally on the Lawn, you won't see 180-200K children and their parents show up for that. Not even half of it either. Like we're all afraid to admit the problem and deal with it so we "keep on keeping on". Doing what they did last weekend wasn't the life altering moment they thought they were experiencing. They are the joke. See it for what it is. The next news cycle is upon us.

DMV, well said, my friend.

David (dpnewell)

I couldn't have said it better if I tried DMV.

It's apparent that you're passionate about the 2nd amendment. I respect that. But I have issues with a lot of what you say. 

I  can't stand the sight or sound of David Hobbs. Similarly I switch channels the second I see Donald. It's all just noise to me at this point.


While I agree that these are just kids, with half-baked ideas, I also couldn't be any prouder of them! Without their running the show we adults would have done nothing about Parkland. Again. It's a mixed blessing having kids take over but in the end, it's right. They're the shooter's targets. Adults were impotent. 


John Paul Stevens, the retired Supreme Court Judge you mocked fought in WW2, was originally appointed by Nixon and became a SCJ under Ford. 

He retired from the court in 2010, but two years earlier dissented in District of Columbia v. Heller,which determined the Second Amendment allowed an individual right to bear arms. Stevens says he remains convinced that decision was wrong and debatable and provided the National Rifle Association with "a propaganda weapon of immense power."


He said:

The Second Amendment states that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Stevens called that concern "a relic of the 18th century" and says repealing it would eliminate the only legal rule that protects sellers of firearms in the United States.


(and by the way,  he admitted it was probably an overly simple solution.)


A quick search online, or even in cbid threads makes it clear, no bs, that we in America have way more guns per capita than any other country in the world and our gun violence numbers are off the charts. 

And that only about 5% of mentally ill people commit violent crimes. 


I'm not going to change you mind nor you mine. We're all victims of reflexivity.

But you have to admit that it's sad that we can't access and agree on what constitutes "facts" anymore. 

Btw, God didn't give us our rights. Did he?

And as regards our rights, they change. And should always evolve with our culture. The 3rd (no quartering right) amendment makes no modern sense at all but there it is:

The Third Amendment states, "No soldier shall, in times of peace, be quartered in any house. . . ." Under British rule, the colonists sometimes had to feed and house British soldiers against their will. As a result, Americans wanted this practice forbidden under the Bill of Rights.

And how about  this "right": If an accused person is found not guilty of a serious crime, he cannot be tried a second time for this same crime. Freaking absurd!

Modern day automatic, high powered weapons couldn't even have been imagined when the second amendment was written. Our founding  fathers were pretty smart. It's just common sense that the amendment would have looked different based on how lethal guns are today.

Should people have guns? Sure. As many as they want? Probably not a great idea. 

If our federal government ever became tyrannical,  does anybody really think all the guns citizens have collectively could stave off the military? 

To me it's an absurd point to try and make.

What kid of idiot isn't in support of double jeopordy protections. The courts can prove your innocence at any time but they should only be able to prove your guilt once. End of story.

The way I see it, I would never give quarter to the military. Look at some of these other rotgut countries it is a common practice. Just because you are ill informed doesn't mean ot doesn't happen.

That's not to say I wouldn't take in a wounded soldier in the midst of civil war but I do have a right to say whom I take and whom must find other shelter.

I understand why double jeopardy is on the books. It's a remnant from England and long ago when governments and businesses could retry a targeted person, guilty or not, over and over again, financially bleed him dry, and win their case and light a cigar.
Of course protection against THAT is crucial.
But to my way of thinking, when it prevents actual justice from being served eg when a freed but guilty man is confronted with new and clearly damming evidence and it's undeniable that the DNA or film footage or other proof puts the now exonerated perpetrator of that felony safely out legal harms way, it's wrong.
Regarding the 3rd amendment, and what you say is my ignorance of its vital importance, I'm gonna pass. It's a relic from the 18thc. End of story.

Yet in the 1980s, a bunch of stone age Afgan sheep herders, armed with mostly single shot and bolt action rifles, knocked the living crap out of one of the most powerful militaries in the word.

Another point. The vast majority of our military and police rank and file vote conservative. These military members have taken an oath to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, both domestic and foreign. That means that they have taken an oath to stand with the American people against their own governement, should such government threaten the Constitution.

David (dpnewell)

Bunch of stone age sheep herders with the aid of a chitload of foreign support that poured in from Iran, Pakistan, China, and the United States. Not to mention the NATO troops.
It's a moot point, isn't it? Would students, cops, military, workers, and oppressed citizens with the aid of some foreign state sucessfully revolt against the most powerful military in the world? To me? Seems dumb to even discuss seriously.


While some succeed, historically most revolutions fail.

Huck, I think you were asked "how many" guns would be too much.
I know there are a lot of questions left unanswered from every angle here. But that is at the heart of the issue.
We hear from the anti-gun crowd that nobody should own an arsenal.
So.
How many is too much?
How many is OK?

Gun owners have been honest. They don't want limits.
The anti-gun crowd have been deceitful by omission. Is it one? 100? Zero?
Saying generic catch phrases like "reasonable" is counterproductive when both sides have a different definition.

Agreed.

Yes, that was their EXACT intention. The Supreme Court has ruled on it to.



Ask the families at Ruby Ridge, Branch Davidians at Waco, and the Bundy's in Nevada. Our government has exceeded it boundaries countless times, those examples were just off the top of my head. The way these punk ass kids are behaving they want to give up their rights and you're compliant right along with them.

David, you've made some salient points. I totally agree, something has changed. Our kids today, some of them anyway, are capable of mass murder!! We used to meet outside after school to settle differences. Bullied kids suffered quietly.

It seems clear to me that we're only seeing the logical result of years of desensitization. School shooters are not that different from suicide bombers. They're lost souls and don't have much to look forward to in life. They're both despondent. One has no god on his side, the other too much god.
Killing is a clear and profound final statement. In todays world, violence is a very normal reaction to frustration. It's condoned, even celebrated in society much more than when we were kids. It's glamorized in tv, youtube/Internet, social media, movies, video games. I've watched my grandkids playing video games transform in to homicidal maniacs. 'Grandpa! I just killed a whole village!'
Here's where we are. I see the results .....but just hypothetical causes.

I'm out when you say it has to do with God being missing. God's been MIA during most of my years in school. Something else must have changed. I wonder if the core values of morality we assimilated by reading the Bible or discussing with adults what's right or wrong were never replaced. It's likely that we have left our kids without a sense of spirituality/love thy neighbor-type thinking.

So maybe we agree a little.

What political affiliation should be blamed? Yeah, that's where you lose me. Kind of pizz me off too. In our lives we witnessed very vocal religious folks, conservatives/republicans in their voting, talk about family values, love of country, fidelity, loving thy neighbor, the downside of liberalism, bringing school prayer back in to the schools etc.
I'm not gonna go in to this, just gonna say 'Hypocrites! You elected Donald Trump!!!!??'

Final point: until we put together a solution to the shootings, it makes sense to hide the guns.
When and if we prove the we are up the task; kids communicate with each other, schools return to being safe places, everybody's happy, then return to guns as usual.

In my out of control high school art class when we got bored we'd start throwing stuff at each other when poor Mrs Bozanko turned her back. Erasures, crayons, pencils. The second thing she'd do (afterwe ignored her screaming) was take stuff away.
She was operating on instinct. Unfortunately I think that's where we have to start too.