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Homeowner’s son kills three would-be burglars with AR-15
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Speyside Offline
#51 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 8:17 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
DMV, you are spot on about mental health. Our society seems unwilling to tackle this problem.
HuckFinn Offline
#52 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 8:38 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Speyside wrote:
DMV, you are spot on about mental health. Our society seems unwilling to tackle this problem.

After a close association with a person with serious mental illness I fully understand why society drags it's heals regarding them. It's draining. Impossible task really.
DrafterX Offline
#53 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 8:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
I didn't know you and Bandie were so close... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#54 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 9:01 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Gerbil

Your apology is accepted
frankj1 Offline
#55 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 9:07 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
Speyside wrote:
DMV, you are spot on about mental health. Our society seems unwilling to tackle this problem.

first thing cut out of every budget
HuckFinn Offline
#56 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 9:32 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
I agree that mental illness is a taboo subject. But as it concerns violence there is a lot of research that indicates that mentally ill people don't usually perpetrate violent crimes.


"A 2016 academic study estimated that just 4 percent of violence is associated with serious mental illness alone. “Evidence is clear that the large majority of people with mental disorders do not engage in violence against others, and that most violent behavior is due to factors other than mental illness,” the study concluded. "

"A 2015 study found that less than 5 percent of gun-related killings in the United States between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people diagnosed with mental illness."



From NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/fact-check-parkland-gun-violence-mental-illness.html

Interesting read.
tailgater Offline
#57 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 11:23 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Phil222 wrote:
I never said any of that. I thought my question was pretty clear. I asked if it was possible to gundown three unarmed people without an AR?


It was tongue in cheek.

Although not by TW's definition of that...
teedubbya Offline
#58 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 12:08 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Oh my
HuckFinn Offline
#59 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 12:12 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Look! Halleys Comet!
frankj1 Offline
#60 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
HuckFinn wrote:
I agree that mental illness is a taboo subject. But as it concerns violence there is a lot of research that indicates that mentally ill people don't usually perpetrate violent crimes.


"A 2016 academic study estimated that just 4 percent of violence is associated with serious mental illness alone. “Evidence is clear that the large majority of people with mental disorders do not engage in violence against others, and that most violent behavior is due to factors other than mental illness,” the study concluded. "

"A 2015 study found that less than 5 percent of gun-related killings in the United States between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people diagnosed with mental illness."



From NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/fact-check-parkland-gun-violence-mental-illness.html

Interesting read.

sounded familiar...this was a post of mine in the Florida School Shooting thread:

"I believe MA has the lowest gun related death stats in the nation.
Texas is the run away leader. Whatever those numbers mean.

yet I remain conflicted on what, if anything, can be done to prevent mass shootings.

Just recently I read an article alleging that less than 5% of mass murder shooters were or would have been found mentally ill. This really knocks down the intended effectiveness of the wide spread movement (that is even supported by NRA leadership) to find ways to hinder gun access to mentally ill citizens. Looks like it would be a blip on the screen related to prevention...

It may have more impact on run-of-the-mill daily homicides where shooters and victims often know each other.

or not.

Conflicted."
delta1 Offline
#61 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
fear and hatred are our enemies...yet we embrace them as tightly as first loves...
frankj1 Offline
#62 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 12:38 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
delta1 wrote:
fear and hatred are our enemies...yet we embrace them as tightly as first loves...

is that an original Delta line?
may I quote you?
Phil222 Offline
#63 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 1:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
tailgater wrote:
It was tongue in cheek.

Although not by TW's definition of that...

It was foot in mouth.

by TW's definition of that............disgusting.
Speyside Offline
#64 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 1:37 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Interesting read Huck. I disagree when it comes to mass murderers and serial murderers. These are not the actions of sane people.
delta1 Offline
#65 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 2:06 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
frankj1 wrote:
is that an original Delta line?
may I quote you?


of course...
Phil222 Offline
#66 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 2:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
That was a good line...like talkin gun control with Shakespeare.
HuckFinn Offline
#67 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 2:49 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Phil222 wrote:
That was a good line...like talkin gun control with Shakespeare.

To BB or not to BB?
HuckFinn Offline
#68 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 2:54 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Speyside wrote:
Interesting read Huck. I disagree when it comes to mass murderers and serial murderers. These are not the actions of sane people.
according to a legal site, this is the definition of insanity:

mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior. Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury.

I too have always had a problem calling someone who is able to cleverly plan executions "insane"

Then again, wouldn't explain Hannibal
Phil222 Offline
#69 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 3:15 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't..."
rfenst Offline
#70 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 4:02 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,255
Could the kid have stopped the intrusion with a 9mm?
tailgater Offline
#71 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 5:46 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
HuckFinn wrote:
To BB or not to BB?


That is my kind of humor.

Seriously.
Phil222 Offline
#72 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 6:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Yeah, a lot of smart and funny peeps around here...
frankj1 Offline
#73 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 7:49 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
where?
Phil222 Offline
#74 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 8:32 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
frankj1 wrote:
where?


Well, maybe not here, here. But if we're talkin bout the interwebs as a whole...there's definitely some around.
Gene363 Offline
#75 Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2018, 9:10 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,799
Illinois Man Uses AR-15 To Save A Life

"Time and time again, we’re told that there’s absolutely no reason to have an AR-15 except to take a human life. They’re “weapons of war,” they’re tools designed to kill and nothing else, some say."

However, an Illinois man is alive today because of an AR-15 in the hands of a private citizen... (Read more on link below)

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...-15-save-life/
DrafterX Offline
#76 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 10:17 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
Ram has a bat... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#77 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 12:57 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
Ram has a bat... Mellow

Yeah, but is it a semi-automatic?Anxious
delta1 Offline
#78 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 1:13 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
Gene363 wrote:
Illinois Man Uses AR-15 To Save A Life

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...-15-save-life/



Tried to read the article, but it isn't there anymore...just wondering whether Frank's question applies here: would a gun other than an AR-15 have achieved the same result?

A few years ago, there was a well-known pro-gun spokesman who appeared on the Larry Elder show frequently. His position was that guns save lives, but the media never publishes any stories when it happens. He said he had thousands of instances where guns prevented people from being robbed, hurt, killed...turned out he was a fraud...
ZRX1200 Offline
#79 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 3:23 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,582
Yeah they never helped store owners during riots in LA.
ZRX1200 Offline
#80 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 3:23 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,582
Delta hates Asian people....
Speyside Offline
#81 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 3:56 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Huck, yes, by legal definition most are sane. So let me phrase it differently. Mass murderers and serial murderers are abnormal. There is probably a better way to state this, since most abnormal people are not murderers. And it also begs the question what is normal?
Palama Offline
#82 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 4:08 PM EST
Joined: 02-05-2013
Posts: 23,627
ZRX1200 wrote:
Delta hates Asian people....


Probably hasn't looked in a mirror lately. Think
HuckFinn Offline
#83 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 4:30 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Speyside wrote:
And it also begs the question what is normal?


Drafter?
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#84 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 4:31 PM EST
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
rfenst wrote:
Could the kid have stopped the intrusion with a 9mm?


Possibly, Counselor. But since he had an AR-15 and not a 9mm, we will never know. Now, my return question to you. Could the monster Cruz have caused even more carnage with a 9mm? Again, possibly, as the Virginia Tech murderer killed 32 (almost twice the number as Cruz) with nothing more then a 9mm Glock and a .22 caliber Walther. In my experience, if Cruz had opened fire in those crowded class rooms with a typical 12 gauge pump shotgun, there would have been far more dead and wounded.

Instead of demonizing the tool used, we need to figure out what has changed in our society, that is allowing these mass murders to happen. Of course it is an easier "fix" to outlaw the tool, then to confront the real problems behind these murders. Outlawing the tool may be the easy way out, but it isn't going to solve the undelaying problem, nor reduce future mass murders. My dad carried his field shotgun to school and back, hunting both ways. So did his friends, but no one ever thought of shooting up a classroom. What has changed?

David (dpnewell)
HuckFinn Offline
#85 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 4:38 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
If less than 5% of mentally ill people commit violent crimes, and the guns don't kill people, people kill people adage is valid, and violent video games, movies and TV all don't contribute to school shootings, what do we have left to account for the shootings in the states?
I'm not being facetious. Why are some kids willing and able to perpetrate mass shootings?

David, didn't see your above post. Exactly, "...we need to figure out what has changed in our society, that is allowing these mass murders to happen."
RMAN4443 Offline
#86 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 5:24 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Speyside wrote:
Huck, yes, by legal definition most are sane. So let me phrase it differently. Mass murderers and serial murderers are abnormal. There is probably a better way to state this, since most abnormal people are not murderers. And it also begs the question what is normal?


Mass murderers and serial murderers are all F*cked up in the head.......or that's what I heard anywayThink

What is normal?.....not mass murderers or serial murderersAnxious
delta1 Offline
#87 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 5:28 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
ZRX1200 wrote:
Yeah they never helped store owners during riots in LA.



That was one of the few times in my professional life when I believed I needed a gun. One of our Long Beach City College campuses is across the street from the park where a white man on a motorcycle was shot and killed by a group of black men in one of the first riot related incidents in Long Beach. Stores and shops all around our campus were looted and burned.

I pulled 12 hrs on/12 hrs off shifts with a few of my men to protect that campus during the riots, watching the city burn around us. Our department had a "no firearms" policy and the administration would not authorize us to carry. We were lucky that the rioters didn't target schools. It was a great relief when the National Guard were deployed on the third day after the riots started.

I remember driving to and from work, seeing Samoan and Korean men armed with rifles and shotguns, standing on the roofs of their stores. Korean-owned markets were targeted by the rioters because several incidents of shoplifting and harassment between shop-owners and black customers were broadcast on local news before the riots. I joked to one of my guys that I should put a sign on my car, "I'm Chinese, not Korean"


Scary times...
DrafterX Offline
#88 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 5:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
They were funky China men from funky Chinatown..
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down..
It's an ancient Chinese art and everybody knew their part..
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip...

Laugh
DrafterX Offline
#89 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 5:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
They were funky China men from funky Chinatown..
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down..
It's an ancient Chinese art and everybody knew their part..
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip...

Laugh
RMAN4443 Offline
#90 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 5:43 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
They were funky China men from funky Chinatown..
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down..
It's an ancient Chinese art and everybody knew their part..
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip...

Laugh

2nd verse, same as the first Whistle
HuckFinn Offline
#91 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 6:05 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
From Dostoevsky's the Brothers Karamazov (great great novel)
Regarding crime in general...slightly off-topic but, I thought relevant enough to mention


"...what is most important is that a great number of our Russian, our national, criminal cases bear witness precisely to something universal, to some general malaise that has taken root among us, and with which, as with universal evil, it is already difficult to contend.
For now we are either horrified or pretend that we are horrified, while, on the contrary, relishing the spectacle, like lovers of strong eccentric sensations that stir our cynical and lazy idleness [like Karamazovs], or, finally, like little children waving the frightening ghosts away."

That we all, normal and abnormal alike, get some private, weird morbid rise out of crime is I think is undeniabe.

No?
DrafterX Offline
#92 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 6:07 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
No... Well, maybe mafia stuff... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#93 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 6:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
DrafterX wrote:
No... Well, maybe mafia stuff... Mellow

you want I should fix this?
DrafterX Offline
#94 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 6:57 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
Let's pick our battles.. this doesn't hurt my liver much.. Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#95 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 7:18 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
cool, but remember, I'm covering for the Christian guys this weekend...
DrafterX Offline
#96 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 7:26 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
We appreciate that... ThumpUp
Abrignac Offline
#97 Posted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 8:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,263
delta1 wrote:
That was one of the few times in my professional life when I believed I needed a gun. One of our Long Beach City College campuses is across the street from the park where a white man on a motorcycle was shot and killed by a group of black men in one of the first riot related incidents in Long Beach. Stores and shops all around our campus were looted and burned.

I pulled 12 hrs on/12 hrs off shifts with a few of my men to protect that campus during the riots, watching the city burn around us. Our department had a "no firearms" policy and the administration would not authorize us to carry. We were lucky that the rioters didn't target schools. It was a great relief when the National Guard were deployed on the third day after the riots started.

I remember driving to and from work, seeing Samoan and Korean men armed with rifles and shotguns, standing on the roofs of their stores. Korean-owned markets were targeted by the rioters because several incidents of shoplifting and harassment between shop-owners and black customers were broadcast on local news before the riots. I joked to one of my guys that I should put a sign on my car, "I'm Chinese, not Korean"


Scary times...


Better man than me. I’d never wear a badge without being armed. If you’re wearing a bullseye above your heart you’re going to be the first person shot when things go bad. I’d at least want a chance to defend myself.
HuckFinn Offline
#98 Posted: Mon, Apr 2 2018, 9:47 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
tailgater wrote:
That is my kind of humor.

Seriously.


Thanks for the heads up
tailgater Offline
#99 Posted: Mon, Apr 2 2018, 12:08 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
That's what she said.
delta1 Offline
#100 Posted: Mon, Apr 2 2018, 5:07 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
Abrignac wrote:
Better man than me. I’d never wear a badge without being armed. If you’re wearing a bullseye above your heart you’re going to be the first person shot when things go bad. I’d at least want a chance to defend myself.


We had body armor...and mace... and did visible vehicle patrols around the campus, until the numbers of people milling about on the streets got too big. We decided to park the marked patrol car inside the auto shop as a precaution against vandalism, and worked in plain clothes. We watched the carnage around us from the roof of the main building. Our "weapons" were fire hoses...
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