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Starbucks, others must carry cancer warning in California, judge rules
cacman Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Starbucks (SBUX) and other coffee companies in California should have to post warnings because the brew may contain an ingredient that's been linked to cancer, a judge has ruled. The culprit is acrylamide, a chemical produced in the bean roasting process that is a known carcinogen and has been at the heart of an eight-year legal struggle between a tiny nonprofit group and Big Coffee.

The Council for Education and Research on Toxics sued to require the coffee industry to remove acrylamide from its processing — like potato chip makers did when it sued them years ago — or disclose the danger in ominous warning signs or labels. The industry, led by Starbucks Corp., said the level of the chemical in coffee isn't harmful and any risks are outweighed by benefits.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Elihu Berle said Wednesday that the coffee makers hadn't presented the proper grounds at trial to prevail.

"While plaintiff offered evidence that consumption of coffee increases the risk of harm to the fetus, to infants, to children and to adults, defendants' medical and epidemiology experts testified that they had no opinion on causation," Berle wrote in his proposed ruling. "Defendants failed to satisfy their burden of proving ... that consumption of coffee confers a benefit to human health."

The suit was brought against Starbucks and 90 other companies under a law passed by California voters in 1986 that has been credited with culling cancer-causing chemicals from myriad products and also criticized for leading to quick settlement shakedowns.

The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act, better known as Proposition 65, requires warning labels for about 900 chemicals known to cause cancer or birth defects. It allows private citizens, advocacy groups and attorneys to sue on behalf of the state and collect a portion of civil penalties for failure to provide warnings.

"This lawsuit has made a mockery of Prop. 65, has confused consumers, and does nothing to improve public health," said William Murray, president and CEO of the National Coffee Association, who added that coffee had been shown to be a healthy beverage.

Scientific evidence on coffee has gone back and forth for a long time, but concerns have eased recently about possible dangers of coffee, with some studies finding health benefits.

Coffee and your health

In 2016, the cancer agency of the World Health Organization moved coffee off its "possible carcinogen" list.

Studies indicate coffee is unlikely to cause breast, prostate or pancreatic cancer, and it seems to lower the risks for liver and uterine cancers, the agency said. Evidence is inadequate to determine its effect on dozens of other cancer types.

CBS News medical contributor Dr. David Agus, director of the Westside Cancer Center at USC, says he believes it is too early to put this kind of blanket warning on coffee.

"When you put a bold declaration that 'X may cause cancer' when there isn't data to that effect in humans, to me it causes panic rather than informed knowledge," he told "CBS This Morning."

Coffee companies have said it's not feasible to remove acrylamide from their product without ruining the flavor.

But attorney Raphael Metzger, who brought the lawsuit and drinks a few cups of coffee a day, said the industry could remove the chemical without impairing taste.

"I firmly believe if the potato chip industry can do it, so can the coffee industry," Metzger said. "A warning won't be that effective because it's an addictive product."

Many California coffee shops have already posted warnings that say acrylamide is cancer-causing chemical found in coffee. But signs that are supposed to be posted at the point of sale are often found in places not easily visible, such as below the counter where cream and sugar are available.

Customers at shops that post warnings are often unaware or unconcerned about them.

Afternoon coffee drinkers at a Los Angeles Starbucks said they might look into the warning or give coffee drinking a second thought after the ruling, but the cup of joe was likely to win out.

"I just don't think it would stop me," said Jen Bitterman, a digital marketing technologist. "I love the taste, I love the ritual, I love the high, the energy, and I think I'm addicted to it."

Darlington Ibekwe, a lawyer in Los Angeles, said a cancer warning would be annoying but wouldn't stop him from treating himself to three lattes a week.

"It's like cigarettes. Like, damn, now I've got to see this?" he said. "Dude, I'm enjoying my coffee."

The defendants have a couple weeks to challenge the ruling before it is final and could seek relief from an appellate court.

If the ruling stands, it could come with a stiff financial penalty and could rattle consumers beyond state lines.

The judge can set another phase of trial to consider potential civil penalties up to $2,500 per person exposed each day over eight years. That could be an astronomical sum in a state with close to 40 million residents, though such a massive fine is unlikely.

California's outsized market could make it difficult to tailor packaging with warning labels specifically to stores in the state.

That means out-of-state coffee drinkers could also take their coffee with a cancer warning. Cream and sugar would still be optional.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starbucks-cancer-warning-judge-rules-on-coffee-carcinogen-acrylamide/

---

California doesn't have any more important issues to worry about or spend taxpayer money on??? LMFAO!

This is worse than the warnings that where imposed on to-go coffee cups stating it's a hot beverage after a women sued McDonald's because her coffee was too hot.
d'oh!
tamapatom Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 03-19-2015
Posts: 7,381

"Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Elihu Berle said Wednesday that the coffee makers hadn't presented the proper grounds at trial to prevail."



Maybe he prefers a dark roast.
jjanecka Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
So long as it hits Starbucks the hardest that's all I care about. They don't represent my views and they deserve to be shut down.
frankj1 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
jjanecka wrote:
So long as it hits Starbucks the hardest that's all I care about. They don't represent my views and they deserve to be shut down.

chick fil-a reversal

The Age of Fast Food Politics is upon us
Gene363 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810

Don't californicate the free states of the Nation.

Perhaps we should embargo coffee shipments to Commifornia?
frankj1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
full disclosure, I never go to Starbucks, but that's cuz I hate their burnt coffee.
tailgater Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
jjanecka wrote:
So long as it hits Starbucks the hardest that's all I care about. They don't represent my views and they deserve to be shut down.


A very healthy perspective...
tailgater Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
full disclosure, I never go to Starbucks, but that's cuz I hate their burnt coffee.


I like their coffee.
But I LOVE oogling the goth chicks who congregate there.

Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
I'm curious. It is reported that cooking meat above 350 degrees (grilling, frying or broiling) can create heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which have been linked to cancer. Therefore, in California, do restaurants/caterers/hot dog carts/taco trucks, etc. have to post cancer warnings if they cook their meat at high temperature? If not, then why not? You would think it would follow the same logic as this coffee ruling. In fact, I can think of dozens of additional labelings that should be required. Come on people. If you want to live in a society where government "protects" you from everything, let's at least try to be consistant.

David (dpnewell)
Gene363 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
frankj1 wrote:
full disclosure, I never go to Starbucks, but that's cuz I hate their burnt coffee.


Starburnt coffee is bad. I think they burn it so they can load in plenty of sugar and fru fru crap then sell it for a ridiculous price.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
frankj1 wrote:
full disclosure, I never go to Starbucks, but that's cuz I hate their burnt coffee.


Good for you, Frank. I was a home roaster for years, and Starbucks coffee tastes burnt to me too. Opps, I just admitted that I was a former coffee roaster. What the heck did I do with those cancer warning labels?

David (dpnewell)
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
you scofflaw!
teedubbya Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard Starbucks steals communion wafers from local Catholic Churches, and sells them to anyone that wants them.
frankj1 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
they're gonna get a beatin'
victor809 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
This is more complex than the article (and multiple news stories) are reporting....

The california proposition itself is ridiculous. It's been around for a while now, I've noticed it since I first moved here. The proposition is intended to have businesses place warning labels wherever public or employees may be exposed to carcinogens, however, because the very broad definition of carcinogens, these warnings are in a LOT of businesses. This makes the proposition essentially useless, because we just ignore the signs because they're in too many places. Hell, I think it was in the parking garage i used to valet my car at a couple years ago. Not gonna think about it too much when you see it every morning. Sure as hell isn't going to stop me from drinking a cup of coffee afterwards.

However, beyond that, the chemical they are highlighting in the coffee is acrylamide.... that's a nasty little chemical and is carcinogenic. We used to use it to make gels a decade ago... in the unpolymerized form it is bad stuff... can get into your lungs easily. However, the polymerized form is much less dangerous.... I don't know what they are detecting in these coffees... and I don't know what concentration (as with anything, a tiny amount is likely not a big deal)....

While the article states "starbucks" I don't think this prop will only impact starbucks... I have no idea how they are determining who would be required to post it....

But anyway... finally, anyone who is disparaging starbucks for being burnt is just clearly too weak to drink mans coffee.... I grew up on that stuff...32oz of starbucks coffee every morning starting in 7th grade... added 5 shots of Starbucks espresso for lunch when I got my own car....
victor809 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
I heard Starbucks steals communion wafers from local Catholic Churches, and sells them to anyone that wants them.


they do make a great dipping wafer for your cappuccino.
Gene363 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
victor809 wrote:
This is more complex than the article (and multiple news stories) are reporting....

The california proposition itself is ridiculous. It's been around for a while now, I've noticed it since I first moved here. The proposition is intended to have businesses place warning labels wherever public or employees may be exposed to carcinogens, however, because the very broad definition of carcinogens, these warnings are in a LOT of businesses. This makes the proposition essentially useless, because we just ignore the signs because they're in too many places. Hell, I think it was in the parking garage i used to valet my car at a couple years ago. Not gonna think about it too much when you see it every morning. Sure as hell isn't going to stop me from drinking a cup of coffee afterwards.

However, beyond that, the chemical they are highlighting in the coffee is acrylamide.... that's a nasty little chemical and is carcinogenic. We used to use it to make gels a decade ago... in the unpolymerized form it is bad stuff... can get into your lungs easily. However, the polymerized form is much less dangerous.... I don't know what they are detecting in these coffees... and I don't know what concentration (as with anything, a tiny amount is likely not a big deal)....

While the article states "starbucks" I don't think this prop will only impact starbucks... I have no idea how they are determining who would be required to post it....

But anyway... finally, anyone who is disparaging starbucks for being burnt is just clearly too weak to drink mans coffee.... I grew up on that stuff...32oz of starbucks coffee every morning starting in 7th grade... added 5 shots of Starbucks espresso for lunch when I got my own car....


Sorry, not true, the more you roast/burn coffee the less caffeine it contains.
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
Victor you are correct about Proposition 65. So are apples sold in California marked per Proposition 65? I recall reading about the "Alar Scare" for apples and an article that found naturally occurring compounds in apples that were potentially more carcinogenic than trace amount of Alar. Granted, no one want harmful chemicals in their food, but many foods have trace amounts of chemicals that are quite harmful.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
victor809 wrote:
This is more complex than the article (and multiple news stories) are reporting....

The california proposition itself is ridiculous. It's been around for a while now, I've noticed it since I first moved here. The proposition is intended to have businesses place warning labels wherever public or employees may be exposed to carcinogens, however, because the very broad definition of carcinogens, these warnings are in a LOT of businesses. This makes the proposition essentially useless, because we just ignore the signs because they're in too many places. Hell, I think it was in the parking garage i used to valet my car at a couple years ago. Not gonna think about it too much when you see it every morning. Sure as hell isn't going to stop me from drinking a cup of coffee afterwards.

However, beyond that, the chemical they are highlighting in the coffee is acrylamide.... that's a nasty little chemical and is carcinogenic. We used to use it to make gels a decade ago... in the unpolymerized form it is bad stuff... can get into your lungs easily. However, the polymerized form is much less dangerous.... I don't know what they are detecting in these coffees... and I don't know what concentration (as with anything, a tiny amount is likely not a big deal)....

Good info, Victor. Interesting

While the article states "starbucks" I don't think this prop will only impact starbucks... I have no idea how they are determining who would be required to post it....

According to the article, Starbucks and 90 other coffee companies where named in the lawsuit.

But anyway... finally, anyone who is disparaging starbucks for being burnt is just clearly too weak to drink mans coffee.... I grew up on that stuff...32oz of starbucks coffee every morning starting in 7th grade... added 5 shots of Starbucks espresso for lunch when I got my own car....

Cool, so you like dark roasted coffee. Nothing wrong with that. As a former home roaster I just happen to appreciate my coffee a little differently. I loved to try single lot coffees from small farms. If you went past city, or city+ roast, you would destroy the nuances of these lots, and only taste the roast, instead of the unigue charactor or terroir of the individual coffee. I think this is why Starbucks dark roasts their coffees. That way they can use whatever coffee is priced right at the time, and still provide a consistant tasting product. I've roasted coffees that tasted of stone fruits, like apricot, peach, plum and/or cherry. Others that had walnut, almond or pecan notes. Some with caramel, brown sugar or sweet cream notes. Some with citris, and others with chocolate notes. I even remember a unique Ethiopian coffee that tasted very strong of banana. Just FYI.



David (dpnewell)
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
Gene363 wrote:
Sorry, not true, the more you roast/burn coffee the less caffeine it contains.


Uh, not entirely true. Dark roast and light roast coffee have the same amount of caffeine per bean. Dark roast coffee is lighter in weight as it contains less water, therefore, there are more beans per lb. (50 to 100 beans per average). So, if you measure your coffee by volume, light roast will have slightly more caffeine then darker roasts, since light roast beans are denser and slightly smaller (hence more beans per volume). If you measure your coffee by weight, darker roasts will have slightly more caffiene then lighter roasts since darker roasts have more beans per lb. Either way, the differance is very slight. FYI.

David (dpnewell)
victor809 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I seem to remember light roast having significantly more caffeine... A coffee shop I used to go to later in life had a "white zombie" made from beans which were really barely roasted... they were almost an off-white color. delicious....

As for dark roast... mostly I'm just giving you crap. I don't care about the flavor of coffee. I grew up drinking gallons of it and am by no means a connoisseur. ... I've always dealt in volume over flavor. But I think the grief people give starbucks coffee has more to do with the fact that they're very popular over any actual quality. Honestly, they became ridiculously popular partially because they were the first chain to produce something of higher quality than you normally would get at the time.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
frankj1 wrote:
you scofflaw!


I once traded home roasted coffee for cigars and did not include any cancer warning labels. Am I going to prison?

David (dpnewell)
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
Victor,
I have no problem with Starbucks. I was just passing on a little of my accumulated first hand knowledge and experience. Take it as you will.

Personally, when it comes to vices, folks should indulge in what they enjoy, not what they are told to enjoy. I like city roast and others like dark roast. Who cares? I prefer my cigars blended by Pepin, AJ or Padron. Others only smoke Cubans or Fuentes. Big deal. I like Rye whiskeys, others prefer Scotch or Bourbon. Whatever.

David (dpnewell)
Speyside Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I think the part about the WHO removing it from their list in 2016 is very interesting.
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Was that before or after Pete Townsend’s research?
Gene363 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
Uh, not entirely true. Dark roast and light roast coffee have the same amount of caffeine per bean. Dark roast coffee is lighter in weight as it contains less water, therefore, there are more beans per lb. (50 to 100 beans per average). So, if you measure your coffee by volume, light roast will have slightly more caffeine then darker roasts, since light roast beans are denser and slightly smaller (hence more beans per volume). If you measure your coffee by weight, darker roasts will have slightly more caffiene then lighter roasts since darker roasts have more beans per lb. Either way, the differance is very slight. FYI.

David (dpnewell)


Interesting point. In my 16 plus years of roasting I occasionally screw up a roast. Since I typically "drink mistakes" my wife and I found we cannot tolerate the buzz of under roasted beans. Maybe it's the crappy taste after all.
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
I once traded home roasted coffee for cigars and did not include any cancer warning labels. Am I going to prison?

David (dpnewell)

nope, no prison. It's a cancer tie.
frankj1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
Was that before or after Pete Townsend’s research?

funny.
delta1 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,782
Don't come to CA if you're pregnant...the warning signs re carcinogens or harmful activities will cause abortions (stress induced miscarriages)...
MACS Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,770
frankj1 wrote:
full disclosure, I never go to Starbucks, but that's cuz I hate their burnt coffee.


Amen... amen... and my kid worked there for a few years.
tailgater Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
I heard Starbucks steals communion wafers from local Catholic Churches, and sells them to anyone that wants them.


Explains the flavor of their scones.

Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
Gene363 wrote:
Interesting point. In my 16 plus years of roasting I occasionally screw up a roast. Since I typically "drink mistakes" my wife and I found we cannot tolerate the buzz of under roasted beans. Maybe it's the crappy taste after all.


Gene,
This was my setup from years ago. Behmor 1600 full lb. drum roaster. I burned it out a few years later, and then developed a caffiene allergy before I replaced it. Since Donna was doing full caffiene, and I have to do de-cafe, we went K-cup. Buying "mountain water processed" decaf from a craft roaster in PA. They offer their own decaf K-cups in a dozen selections. Now that Donna is doing de-cafe too, I hope to get back into roasting.

http://www.cigarbid.com/...hrough-For-a-Cup-of-Joe

David (dpnewell)
tailgater Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
Was that before or after Pete Townsend’s research?


You forgot the "h" in Townshend.
And the quotation marks around "research"...



victor809 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Off topic...

What's involved in doing ones own roasting?
tailgater Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Cast iron skillet and some beans.


Or an air popcorn popper. modified.

Or a popcorn popper with the twirly thing on the bottom plate.

Or invest in a real roaster that helps remove the chaf.



I've considered this "hobby" for a long while.

If you're serious there are a bunch of guys here that really know their stuff.


Gene363 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
Gene,
This was my setup from years ago. Behmor 1600 full lb. drum roaster. I burned it out a few years later, and then developed a caffiene allergy before I replaced it. Since Donna was doing full caffiene, and I have to do de-cafe, we went K-cup. Buying "mountain water processed" decaf from a craft roaster in PA. They offer their own decaf K-cups in a dozen selections. Now that Donna is doing de-cafe too, I hope to get back into roasting.

http://www.cigarbid.com/...hrough-For-a-Cup-of-Joe

David (dpnewell)


I use a Hottop roaster most of the time. I bought one when they first got to the US, no heat shield fence and other safety features. I also use the stainless bowl and heat gun method as well as a couple of old hot ar roasters. A buddy I got into home roasting recently got a Behmor and after sorting out the controls is quite happy with his roasts.

The K cups make excellent coffee, we use them on vacations. At home we use a Technivorm Moccamaster.
jjanecka Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I get my coffee from a small supplier and pop it in a french press but I've had to tone it down. Years of popping 5-hour energies and red bulls/rockstar in between coffee hasn't done very well for the body.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
victor809 wrote:
Off topic...

What's involved in doing ones own roasting?


Here's a quick tutoral.

https://www.sweetmarias.com/instructions

I started out with a hot air popcorn popper, but after burning out 3 of them, upgraded to a Behmor 1600 drum roaster. Gene uses the Hottop drum roaster.

David (dpnewell)
victor809 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
These large affairs? Just mildly curious if it would be worth running out of the basement storage room...
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
Gene363 wrote:
I use a Hottop roaster most of the time. I bought one when they first got to the US, no heat shield fence and other safety features. I also use the stainless bowl and heat gun method as well as a couple of old hot ar roasters. A buddy I got into home roasting recently got a Behmor and after sorting out the controls is quite happy with his roasts.

The K cups make excellent coffee, we use them on vacations. At home we use a Technivorm Moccamaster.


Cool, Gene. Those Hottops are nice (but pricey). Stainless bowl and heat gun. Hummmm. I may have to look into that method. I guess you would need to do that outside due to the blowing chaff.

David (dpnewell)
TCBSmokes Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 09-10-2013
Posts: 41
Oddly, since I work where I view a Starbucks, and marveled with disdain at the vast number of kids in line, have at the same time wondered what would happen if something about coffee were found to be unsafe, and, if parents would then cease leading their underlings to the coffee trough, as it we're. I guess maybe now we'll find out.
Gene363 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
victor809 wrote:
Off topic...

What's involved in doing ones own roasting?



Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
Cool, Gene. Those Hottops are nice (but pricey). Stainless bowl and heat gun. Hummmm. I may have to look into that method. I guess you would need to do that outside due to the blowing chaff.

David (dpnewell)


The Hottop roasters have more than doubled in price, I would not buy one today.

The heat gun works well, though you get up close and personal with the heat and smoke of roasting. People always think it must smell great, however I tell folks it's more like burning green sticks. I use a Miller heat gun with the heat shield removed and a stainless steel bow, but double wall dog bowl is supposed to be better. I use a wooden spoon to stir the beans while roasting. For cooling I use a large stainless mixing bowl that drops into the top of a five gallon bucket. I have a hole in the side of the bucket connected to a shop vac and hole drilled into the bottom of the bowl. I use the bucket contraption to cool off the beans after roasting. I can roast an entire pound of green beans using this method. The beans roasts are some place in between the drum and hot air roasters.

A primer for heatgun/dogbowl coffee roasting is here: http://www.homeroaster.com/heatgun.html

The site has a lot of other roasting methods and build projects.

https://ineedcoffee.com/roasting-coffee-with-a-heat-gun-a-top-down-approach/

https://forum.homeroasters.org/forum/viewforum.php?forum_id=142
jjanecka Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Can't you just flip em in a cast iron skillet?
Gene363 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
jjanecka wrote:
Can't you just flip em in a cast iron skillet?


You can, just stir them.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
Thanks for the info, Gene.

David
opelmanta1900 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Drinking a peppermint mocha frappuccino...
teedubbya Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaa
opelmanta1900 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
thtop it....
Gene363 Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,810
Disgusting, but, better than pumpkin spice BARF!
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
Gene363 wrote:
Disgusting, but, better than pumpkin spice BARF!


Voice of experience?
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