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Mental Illness
dstieger Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
After nearly any 'mass shooting', we hear a lot about keeping guns from mentally ill....or 'controlling mentally ill'...or something about guns not being a problem, but the mentally challenged are a big part of the problem. It is often tossed out as a retort to calls for gun control of any sort.

And, it makes sense...to a point. Why would anyone want people with mind problems running around with guns?

But any attempt to get my head around "OK...so....do what, exactly?" is met with near immediate migraines. I mean, do we want every shrink to toss names into some national 'NO-GUN' database? What about non-treated nuts? Parents? Neighbors? Should the cop that found you nearly passed out on the boulevard one night ten years ago be able to ban you from guns? For how long? Life? Who here hasn't displayed what someone might considered mentally-challenged-type-behavior at some point? Sure, there's plenty out there that 99% of people would say "Yep! That's a whacko who shouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of a .22." But, sure have a hard time the the entire rest of the spectrum....I don't see how you get to a place that even a large majority might agree to definitions and processes
frankj1 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
yup.
and to complicate things further, we've had a couple of posts point out that less than 5% of mass shootings wer done by people who would be diagnosed as mentally ill, and that stats in general show diagnosed mentally ill citizens are not more likely to kill than the public at large.
dstieger Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
gotcha....sorry if its a rehash...some threads, like one of the earlier parkland threads...I up and left without going back...I may have missed some thoughtful discussion....



Riiight.....ROFL....
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
Why do you hate gun owners..?? Huh
HuckFinn Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
[quote=dstieger]

But any attempt to get my head around "OK...so....do what, exactly?" is met with near immediate migraines. /quote]

Easy to understand why you avoid "thoughtful discussion".
victor809 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
More amusingly...
There are threads on this site by people complaining about any negative mental status reports from VA or other medical authorities possibly impacting citizens ability to purchase and own guns.

So.... in practice people aren't fans
frankj1 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
dstieger wrote:
gotcha....sorry if its a rehash...some threads, like one of the earlier parkland threads...I up and left without going back...I may have missed some thoughtful discussion....



Riiight.....ROFL....

you didn't rehash.
jjanecka Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I think we just need to arm every man woman and child with a rifle in this country, teach them how to use it with discipline, and then let God sort it out.
Gene363 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,669
victor809 wrote:
More amusingly...
There are threads on this site by people complaining about any negative mental status reports from VA or other medical authorities possibly impacting citizens ability to purchase and own guns.

So.... in practice people aren't fans


What they were proposing was taking away guns from a person that might need help figuring out their checkbook, not just dangerous nutcases, hence the backlash.

There is along track record of antigun people saying one thing and doing another. Only a very few will admit all control measures are just a means to the end, the end of all firearm ownership by anyone other the government. A perfect example are magazine limitations, say ten rounds. So it's OK if you shoot just ten people, but any more, oh no, that's a problem. It's complete BS.
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,476
You're ruining his usual straw man argument.
Gene363 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,669
ZRX1200 wrote:
You're ruining his usual straw man argument.


You must start somewhere, otherwise we get burned, as always, by the law of unintended consequences.
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... and z says my argument is a strawman.
You just said that anyone who wants to limit gun ownership by the mentally unfit is only hiding the ultimate goal of trying to keep guns put of the hands of the entire populace.

If you are going to bother disagreeing with the above, your quote was:
"Only a very few will admit that ALL control measures are just a means to an end, the end of all firearm ownership by anyone other than the government"

Your words not mine.

I was just pointing out that policies checking on people's mental health by various institutions were complained about here. Ironically... your response was "they just can't balance their checkbook... but we should totally give them guns"... which is in itself a hilarious argument and something I think should be implemented immediately with joyous results.
SteveS Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
frankj1 wrote:
yup.
and to complicate things further, we've had a couple of posts point out that less than 5% of mass shootings wer done by people who would be diagnosed as mentally ill, and that stats in general show diagnosed mentally ill citizens are not more likely to kill than the public at large.


I've gotta question the accuracy of that ... whomever provided us with that stat is mis-informed or mistaken ...
Abrignac Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,217
victor809 wrote:
... and z says my argument is a strawman.
You just said that anyone who wants to limit gun ownership by the mentally unfit is only hiding the ultimate goal of trying to keep guns put of the hands of the entire populace.

If you are going to bother disagreeing with the above, your quote was:
"Only a very few will admit that ALL control measures are just a means to an end, the end of all firearm ownership by anyone other than the government"

Your words not mine.

I was just pointing out that policies checking on people's mental health by various institutions were complained about here. Ironically... your response was "they just can't balance their checkbook... but we should totally give them guns"... which is in itself a hilarious argument and something I think should be implemented immediately with joyous results.


So you are saying we should prevent people unable to balance their checkbooks from owning firearms. Should we also prevent them from voting?
jjanecka Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Probably; I mean letting stupid people vote is what got our rights taken away in the first place.
Gene363 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,669
Wow, the democrats are going to be upset. Beer
victor809 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I don't want to prevent anyone from owning a firearm. I'm not saying that in a figurative manner. Literally anyone. Give them their guns back when you release a person from prison or the mental hospital... let's see what happens.

I do think that gun owners who are literally unable to balance their checkbook would make for the most amusing news stories.

My goals are probably different than other peoples goals however.
victor809 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Trump has taken rights away already?

I mean... I know he wants to... but I don't think he's been successful yet.
Ewok126 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
what is a checkbook? Is that one of them lil books you lick and stick them lil green stamps then take to the grocery store to get food?
victor809 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
A proxy for understanding simple addition and subtraction.
jjanecka Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
I mean I only right one check a year and that's because they don't take credit when I try to pay my dues. Lol
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
The checkbook is useless if you have a joint account... Mellow
Ewok126 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
It has been over 5 years since I have written a check.
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
SteveS wrote:
I've gotta question the accuracy of that ... whomever provided us with that stat is mis-informed or mistaken ...

I agree, seems to me once one has massacred x amount of people one has passed the test to be considered ill.
I forget my original source from another thread, but I believe it was published in the New York Times.

I'll poke around and see if I can figure out where this stat originated.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
this one says it's gender...
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/17/gun-violence-masculinity-216321
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
a different longer article:
https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/fact-check-parkland-gun-violence-mental-illness.html
Speyside Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
One thought that has not really been mentioned much anywhere. These mass murderers are evil. This is as basic as it gets. Good versus evil. Let's get past the guns, mental health, bullying, and everything else thrown out there. Every mass murderer is evil. I have no answers. But maybe I have a question worth considering. Is the real problem that evil people are committing mass murder?
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
^I strongly agree.

David (dpnewell)
Gene363 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,669
Speyside wrote:
One thought that has not really been mentioned much anywhere. These mass murderers are evil. This is as basic as it gets. Good versus evil. Let's get past the guns, mental health, bullying, and everything else thrown out there. Every mass murderer is evil. I have no answers. But maybe I have a question worth considering. Is the real problem that evil people are committing mass murder?


Other than a crime of passion the act of murder is evil, in particular premeditated murder. That said, in a hate crime involving murder, the victim is still dead and the evil or the hate is not going to make them more dead.

The whole idea is to identify these killers before the carry out a mass murder. There are signs, but I also wonder how many others exhibited the same behavior but never killed anyone.
HuckFinn Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Speyside wrote:
One thought that has not really been mentioned much anywhere. These mass murderers are evil. This is as basic as it gets. Good versus evil. Let's get past the guns, mental health, bullying, and everything else thrown out there. Every mass murderer is evil. I have no answers. But maybe I have a question worth considering. Is the real problem that evil people are committing mass murder?

That begs the questions:
Why the epidemic of these murders (in schools)?
And, Are our school children more evil than past generations?

I think I know the answer to the first question.
The second question is scarey.

Isn't the origin of the concept of "evil" from the bible?

The more I think about it the less I believe in its actual existence (as a force of nature).
Where in the animal kingdom, not including man, do we see it?
HuckFinn Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Gene363 wrote:


The whole idea is to identify these killers before the carry out a mass murder. There are signs, but I also wonder how many others exhibited the same behavior but never killed anyone.

Or didn't exhibit any signs and killed anyway.
Gene363 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,669
HuckFinn wrote:
Or didn't exhibit any signs and killed anyway.


True.
Speyside Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Huck, let's take religion out of the equation. I am not speaking of evil with a religious context involved. I am speaking of you know evil when you see it. John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, son of Sam, zodiac, Jeffery Dahmer, ISIS, Al Queda, the Taliban, Hamas, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Khaled Sheikh Mohammad, Ramzi Yousef, Eyad Ismoil, and 9/ 11 to mention a few. Let's throw Hitler and all other war criminals in there too. I know evil when I see it. It is possible to stop evil, we did that in WW2. It is possible to run down evil, Simon Wiesenthal proved that. Evil exists in reality, it is not some existential concept.

So I repeat school shooters, mass murderers, and serial murderers are evil.
HuckFinn Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

Just wonder if "evil" is force of nature per se or if it's serious mental illness gone unchecked.

I mean, are demons real?

Nah.

Think someone once said 'only man and cats enjoy killing'.
Sounds about right.


jjanecka Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Let's make no mistake about this, demons are real and the modern term for it is really called mental health. Clearly if something in a person's mind possesses them to shoot up random innocent people that means all the checks and balances in that person's head have been elimated. A lot of people crack at an economic breakdown, relationship breaks, political/social breaks, family loss, et cetera. They're pretty weak willed. You have to be so well developed in life that nothing can break you. The Bible has a perfect example of this in Job. He is probably the one of the most deeply fortified men in history.
HuckFinn Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
jjanecka wrote:
Let's make no mistake about this, demons are real and the modern term for it is really called mental health. Clearly if something in a person's mind possesses them to shoot up random innocent people that means all the checks and balances in that person's head have been elimated. A lot of people crack at an economic breakdown, relationship breaks, political/social breaks, family loss, et cetera. They're pretty weak willed. You have to be so well developed in life that nothing can break you. The Bible has a perfect example of this in Job. He is probably the one of the most deeply fortified men in history.

And God punished him right? Took away Job's wealth and family members on account of a bet he (God) made with devil?

I was wrestling with the idea of 'evil'. People doing evil things,. Are they sick or possessed?
I think they're sick.

Don't entirely agree with your conclusion that people that are weak willed are the only ones to break down. Everybody has a limit. Otherwise sane people can go nuts.


My original point was, I don't think demons are independent of the host.
I think from what you've said, we agree. Mostly.
Speyside Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Interesting thought JJ. I have to disagree in part. In society today a demonic possession would be viewed as mental illness. But only a small percentage of people who are mentally ill suffer from demonic possession. If they all did then why would medication help such a large percentage of them? Also the vast majority of those mentally ill are not evil.

I would like to get back to Dave's original point. I am not willing to subvert peoples rights so some SJW'S get warm fuzzy feelings. Something like .4% of the deaths per year in America can be attributed to gun murders. I can live with that. As far as mass shootings for all practical purposes that number becomes 0%. I can live with that.

Basically there is so much fear mongering and sensationalism that people are willing to trade their rights to be safer. Piss on that. That's just an abuse of the constitution. Our nation has been guided by the constitution for a long time and done quite well. So to those that want to change the constitution, well, point blank they are wrong.
HuckFinn Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Even though the right to safely sit in a classroom, without worries that you and your school might experience a shooting, that right, though not on the books or in the constitution trumps the 2nd amendment.

As stated in another thread what right could be more important than Life?
RMAN4443 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
HuckFinn wrote:
Even though the right to safely sit in a classroom, without worries that you and your school might experience a shooting, that right, though not on the books or in the constitution trumps the 2nd amendment.

As stated in another thread what right could be more important than Life?

You could be sitting in a classroom and be blown up, carbon monoxide poisoned, stabbed in the ear with a pencil.....The world is a dangerous place, you CANNOT legislate away all the dangers people face in the course of their lives........No place is safe from the dangers in the world, even your home is filled with danger--fall down stairs, slip in tub, fire........danger is all around you and no one is safe Scared
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
HuckFinn wrote:
Even though the right to safely sit in a classroom, without worries that you and your school might experience a shooting, that right, though not on the books or in the constitution trumps the 2nd amendment.

As stated in another thread what right could be more important than Life?



You continue to insist that the fault lays with the tool and not the actor, so let's run with that. You also asked "what right could be more important than Life?". Let's see how strongly you believe what you preach.

Every year, over 10,000 Americans are killed on our highways by alcohol (remember, you blame the tool). The right of drivers to be able to travel our highways without the fear of an alcohol impaired driver plowing into them, trumps your right to enjoy alcohol. I mean, what right could be more important than life, correct?

Every SINGLE DAY, 9 Americans are killed and 1,000 are injured by cell phones (again, to be consistent, we must blame the tool). A driver's right to travel our highways, without being killed or maimed by a cell phone distracted driver, trumps your right to use a cell phone. Again, what right could be more important than life?

According to the National Safety Council, 7,000 people each year are killed by swimming pools. In addition, over 5,000 children each year are hospitalized for near drowning events. 20% of these children suffer permanent disabilities. A child's right to not be killed or permanently disabled by a swimming pool trumps your right to swim. Life is more important than recreation.

I could go on, and on, and on, but hopefully, you understand my point.

Oh, and before you go off on some tangent about how guns where "designed to kill", let me stop you right there. Guns where designed to do one thing. Fire a projectile. That projectile can be used for sport or competition, it can be used to put food on the table, it can be used to protect innocent life, and sadly, in the hands of a murderer, it can be used to take innocent life. The actor decides what that tool does. The tool has no mind of it's own. There are studies that show that guns are used hundreds of thousands of times each year to protect innocent life, or to prevent a crime, usually without firing a single shot. Taking this tool out of the hands of good folk, could result in several hundred thousand additional murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, etc. each year. Is this tradeoff worth your illusion (and yes, it is only an illusion) that school children would then be safe?

David (dpnewell)
frankj1 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
jjanecka wrote:
Let's make no mistake about this, demons are real and the modern term for it is really called mental health. Clearly if something in a person's mind possesses them to shoot up random innocent people that means all the checks and balances in that person's head have been elimated. A lot of people crack at an economic breakdown, relationship breaks, political/social breaks, family loss, et cetera. They're pretty weak willed. You have to be so well developed in life that nothing can break you. The Bible has a perfect example of this in Job. He is probably the one of the most deeply fortified men in history.

there is also the plausible view that before societies could comprehend the science of mental illness the only way to explain sick behavior was in the creation of demons and boogeymen...I mean, the sun circled the Earth, and stuff back then too.
victor809 Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Gotta agree with Frank here...
If you start your argument with an unequivocal statement that demons are real.... the rest of the argument sort of has to be wrong.
RMAN4443 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
You continue to insist that the fought lays with the tool and not the actor, so let's run with that. You also asked "what right could be more important than Life?". Let's see how strongly you believe what you preach.

Every year, over 10,000 Americans are killed on our highways by alcohol (remember, you blame the tool). The right of drivers to be able to travel our highways without the fear of an alcohol impaired driver plowing into them, trumps your right to enjoy alcohol. I mean, what right could be more important than life, correct?

Every SINGLE DAY, 9 Americans are killed and 1,000 are injured by cell phones (again, to be consistent, we must blame the tool). A driver's right to travel our highways, without being killed or maimed by a cell phone distracted driver, trumps your right to use a cell phone. Again, what right could be more important than life?

According to the National Safety Council, 7,000 people each year are killed by swimming pools. In addition, over 5,000 children each year are hospitalized for near drowning events. 20% of these children suffer permanent disabilities. A child's right to not be killed or permanently disabled by a swimming pool trumps your right to swim. Life is more important than recreation.

I could go on, and on, and on, but hopefully, you understand my point.

Oh, and before you go off on some tangent about how guns where "designed to kill", let me stop you right there. Guns where designed to do one thing. Fire a projectile. That projectile can be used for sport or competition, it can be used to put food on the table, it can be used to protect innocent life, and sadly, in the hands of a murderer, it can be used to take innocent life. The actor decides what that tool does. The tool has no mind of it's own. There are studies that show that guns are used hundreds of thousands of times each year to protect innocent life, or to prevent a crime, usually without firing a single shot. Taking this tool out of the hands of good folk, could result in several hundred thousand additional murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, etc. each year. Is this tradeoff worth your illusion (and yes, it is only an illusion) that school children would then be safe?

David (dpnewell)


+1.............that's the point I was trying to make, but you did a much better job of it Applause
HuckFinn Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
RMAN4443 wrote:
You could be sitting in a classroom and be blown up, carbon monoxide poisoned, stabbed in the ear with a pencil.....The world is a dangerous place, you CANNOT legislate away all the dangers people face in the course of their lives........No place is safe from the dangers in the world, even your home is filled with danger--fall down stairs, slip in tub, fire........danger is all around you and no one is safe Scared

Yeah, it's a dangerous place this world. And if we can lessen the dangers we ought to.
It's more than gun legislation that's needed. But shooter's, well, use GUNS.
Here's just a few of their, uh, best hits.

Virginia Tech - 2007
Death toll: 33
Injured: 25

Sandy Hook - 2012
Death toll: 28
Injured: 2

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Death toll: 17
Injured: 14

UT Austin - 1966
Death toll: 17
Injured: 31

Columbine High School - 1999
Death toll: 15
Injured: 21

Umpqua Community College Shooting - 2015
Death toll: 10
Injured: 9

Red Lake - 2005
Death toll: 10
Injured: 7

You get the idea. These kids weren't killed by sharp pencils. If they were then we'd intercede one way or the other, right?
Mr. Jones Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,359
Don't forget MK-ULTRA and SSG GANGSTALKING in many of these cases....not this latest Florida school thing...
That was set up from the get go by the secret service and the FBI, MONTHS IN ADVANCE....

But I believe 90+++% of all workplace shootings are caused by "WORK PLACE MOBBING" which is subsidized by
FBI-SSG OPERATIVES handing out massive amounts of cash to complete idiots with sadistic leanings who just OUTRIGHT DAY IN AND DAY OUT hound, intimidate , bully, and set up the EMPLOYEE they want fired in any way possible....CASH ...UNLIMITED CASH IS A MEANS TO AN END for any alphabet govt. Agency wanting to disappear anyone they percieve as "an enemy of the state" ...
EVEN IF THE TARGETED INDIVIDUAL IS TOTALY INNOCENT...

Their are dozens of books about workplace mobbing on Amazon...purchase a few and OPEN YOUR EYES...
IT IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE...EVERYDAY..

I have shown INFINITE RESTRAINT AGAINST THESE UNGODLY SADISTIC SOCIOPATH'S ...which confuses the f*k out of them...especially after the FBI-SSG DIVISION has tried to kill me outright over 8++ times...

My ACE IN THE HOLE is training and historical allies in the intelligence field covering my sorry azz 24-7-365...
In ghilly suits if need be...
As evidenced last weekend when I heard a firefight about 1/4 mile from my cabin...6 different calibers going off...
60-100 shots??
Over 2 minutes? Then human screaming...then nothing...then the cleaners came...
I think they learned a lesson...
THE HARD WAY...

I am " the I.N.N.O.C.E.N.T. SAINT"....

BELIEVE ME...if I did to them...what they did to me...
They would have gone crazy after about 18 months and who knows what they would have done?

Again, I am the most laid back f**ker in AMERICA as evidenced by my survival against these coward felon PRICKS with guns and badges who claim to be "LAW ENFORCEMENT"...<< what an oxymoron that is...
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
You can't have my guns... Not talking
HuckFinn Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
You continue to insist that the fought lays with the tool and not the actor, so let's run with that. You also asked "what right could be more important than Life?". Let's see how strongly you believe what you preach.

Already trying to format my response

Every year, over 10,000 Americans are killed on our highways by alcohol (remember, you blame the tool). The right of drivers to be able to travel our highways without the fear of an alcohol impaired driver plowing into them, trumps your right to enjoy alcohol. I mean, what right could be more important than life, correct?

If we could lower that number by making mandatory breathalyzers in all cars wouldn't that be a fair price to pay? I'd be in. You?


Every SINGLE DAY, 9 Americans are killed and 1,000 are injured by cell phones (again, to be consistent, we must blame the tool). A driver's right to travel our highways, without being killed or maimed by a cell phone distracted driver, trumps your right to use a cell phone. Again, what right could be more important than life?

Make the punishment for using your cell while driving severe enough to discourage/stop it. People reluctantly used seat belts at first until it hit their wallets a few times. How bout jail time for repeat offenders. Just to please Vic.

According to the National Safety Council, 7,000 people each year are killed by swimming pools. In addition, over 5,000 children each year are hospitalized for near drowning events. 20% of these children suffer permanent disabilities. A child's right to not be killed or permanently disabled by a swimming pool trumps your right to swim. Life is more important than recreation.

I could go on, and on, and on, but hopefully, you understand my point.

I know. You could.

Oh, and before you go off on some tangent about how guns where "designed to kill", let me stop you right there. Guns where designed to do one thing. Fire a projectile. That projectile can be used for sport or competition, it can be used to put food on the table, it can be used to protect innocent life, and sadly, in the hands of a murderer, it can be used to take innocent life. The actor decides what that tool does. The tool has no mind of it's own. There are studies that show that guns are used hundreds of thousands of times each year to protect innocent life, or to prevent a crime, usually without firing a single shot. Taking this tool out of the hands of good folk, could result in several hundred thousand additional murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, etc. each year. Is this tradeoff worth your illusion (and yes, it is only an illusion) that school children would then be safe?

David (dpnewell)


Guns are fun. And in society, necessary. Yup, they're tools. But they ain't hammers.
And all your relating alchohol or swimming to guns is beyond silly imo.
It's a straw man argument.

Pro gun folks like to make the argument that cars are deadly also. My answer: when 100s of students are killed by homicidal students on school property we should seriously look in to it. Until then, well, how bout them guns...

And now my short rant. I realize most at cbid have the home court advantage when it comes to anything guns. I do a lot of answering questions and talking to myself in these threads.
And as you are among 'friends', you don't really need conversation. You want confirmation. And I get that. Maybe I'm at the wrong site for me. *crickets*

Here's what's bugging me lately in this gun debate: I know it has nothing to do with "rights"
When I hear someone say 2nd amendment, or God given rights I'm sort of grateful that you can't see me.
It's not about rights per se. Does anybody here really care about rights? How about gay rights? Don't you think, like most guys, that back when woman insisted they deserved the right to vote you wouldn't have joined the parade and advocated loudly for them?
Or black rights during the Civil Rights movement? Or more recently the invasion of our right privacy by Cambridge Analytica. Where's the uproar for that? *again....crickets*

Or how about the rights of the admittedly thoughtless comedian Kathy Griffin who posted that stupid photo of her holding Trump's bloody head. When she lost all as a result of exercising her right of free speech did we, anyone come to her defense? Nope. Free speech. The 1st amendment.
It's not about your rights. It's about guns. You like them and you're responsible citizens that want to keep them. I get and respect that. No bs.
But if there's zero wiggle room for new approaches IF it means tighter gun restrictions than it's just selfishness imo.
victor809 Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
With ya till the end there huck...
But CamAnal and Griffith were not examples of citizen rights being taken away.

She was not jailed or punished by the govt for her words, and CamAnal used a private company's freely given data to screw with us.

Too often the right whines about their 1st amendment rights being taken when it has nothing to do with actual 1st amendment rights. Let's not start emulating them by doing the same.
HuckFinn Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
victor809 wrote:
With ya till the end there huck...
But CamAnal and Griffith were not examples of citizen rights being taken away.

She was not jailed or punished by the govt for her words, and CamAnal used a private company's freely given data to screw with us.

Too often the right whines about their 1st amendment rights being taken when it has nothing to do with actual 1st amendment rights. Let's not start emulating them by doing the same.

We don't have a right to privacy?
And she was blacklisted..tour cancelled etc
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