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Last post 5 years ago by Abrignac. 129 replies replies.
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U.S. Embassy Opens in Jerusalem
teedubbya Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I think all religion can spawn extremism.
teedubbya Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And yes there are extremist Muslims that may very well believe how you say. I just don’t think they are mainstream at least here. Perhaps some whole countries think that way. I’d have no way of knowing.
frankj1 Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
Frank the problem is you want 100% acceptance of the take back thing. Didn’t they already agree to a 2 state solution?. In itself that’s a take back. But not everyone has just like in here there are many that reject Islam as a legitimate religion but beleive it has no merit and needs to be wiped out.

There are just as many on both sides that don’t want compromise but insist on total victory.


pretty sure about Egypt, maybe Jordan, not so sure about any major players.

PLO did agree to recognize Israel back in the 90's (Oslo maybe?) but Abbas has been significantly neutered since then, Hamas has filled the void, and I doubt they show Israel on office maps of the middle east.

and back then they walked from the table after Israel's opening offer without so much as a counter offer...I'm thinking they wanted everything. We may never know.
bgz Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
teedubbya wrote:
Bgz we have talked about sharia. Fascinating but not as represented in here. They have no desire to change any laws to accommodate theirs or any other religious belief. But then again why ask them if you know more about their religion than they do and anything they say contrary to your understanding is a conspiratorial lie?


Lol, no. Not saying that, I'm sure your friends are good people. I have nothing against the people, my problem lies with the religion itself. I've watched several debates over the years, read a lot of material, and I don't believe that the true moderates (ones that are willing to be your friend) are the status quo in the overall Muslim population around the world. I do want to believe that the vast majority of the Muslim population are true moderates, but I just haven't seen enough evidence to back it up.
bgz Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
teedubbya wrote:
I think all religion can spawn extremism.


Yes, I believe that's what I said as well.
teedubbya Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Bgz I didn’t mean that directly at you (my sarcasm) but it sure reads that way.
frankj1 Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
you meant that directly at me, right?

I realize I am now posting things I have been posting for a decade on the forums.
Probably don't have much new to add.

as far as I know, I only converted one reader, and that was bloody. True story.
bgz Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
teedubbya wrote:
Bgz I didn’t mean that directly at you (my sarcasm) but it sure reads that way.


All good, I went back and looked just to make sure I said what I thought I said :D
delta1 Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,780
There have been many times in history where extreme positions among warring sides have eventually been moderated and some form of rapprochement reached...

Northern Ireland...
Germany and the Jews...
Native Americans and European immigrants...
China and the Mongols...
Japan and the rest of Asia...

given time and a chance, and determined leadership, peace can be obtained...



If all Muslims were die-hard extremists and want to kill all non-believers, then why do many/most who flee violence run into the arms of infidels...and peacefully/harmoniously live among them?
bgz Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Do they though?

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170704/sixty-five-percent-of-french-say-there-are-too-many-foreigners-in-france

They don't integrate, they try to instill the same type of system that lead to their exodus in the first place.

It's a vicious cycle. Islam is not compatible with western civilizations, and that's the problem. I think what makes the religion different than others is that it attempts.. and succeeds to micromanage the daily lives of it's followers.

There are apps to let the believers know when it's time to pray, and do their other activities that they must do to appease their god so as to not anger him and smite their families.

Honor killings, raping scantily clad women because it's the women's fault, etc... they're just not compatible with the rest of the world.

So when they move to another country, it could take generations for them to become truly moderate and accept western laws.
bgz Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I think this guy has the right idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/24/i-will-return-saudi-arabia-moderate-islam-crown-prince

Curious to see if he succeeds, I think it will be a hard sell.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,407
delta1 wrote:
If all Muslims were die-hard extremists and want to kill all non-believers, then why do many/most who flee violence run into the arms of infidels...and peacefully/harmoniously live among them?



Where is that happening? France? Germany?
bgz Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Then there is this guy...

https://www.meforum.org/articles/2017/turkey-rejects-moderate-islam

Which he basically says that moderate Muslims are infidels.

I think that's the general consensus among most of the middle east population... nobody wants to be called a kafir (infidel or unbeliever), it's insulting.


I think the Saudi prince understands the truth, they either have to adapt or watch the world leave them in the dust.

Edit:

Both of the articles were found on the same page with the same simple search.
delta1 Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,780
I worked closely with several Muslims at the college where I worked. I considered them good friends and patriotic Americans. I remember that they flew off to Washington DC on the morning of the 9/11 attacks, volunteering to help translate for the FBI to hunt down the terrorists.

Over-generalization and intransigence can have disastrous results and missed opportunities... less than 100 years ago, laws were specifically passed to keep my ancestors from immigrating to this great nation, by people who believed we were aliens, and called us that in the laws they wrote...now many of my "brothers and sisters" who made it here and settled have contributed to the progress of our country...

Look at the history of Christianity...the scourge of the earth in the days of the Crusades...and then a few hundred years later...

The overwhelming trend in the modern world is something the Europeans have themselves to blame, since the days of Columbus: globalization...whether peaceful or violent, the process is inexorable and will not have a pure, homogenous result...only a mixture of amalgamations...
ZRX1200 Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,587
They were the scourge in the crusades?
bgz Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
delta1 wrote:
I worked closely with several Muslims at the college where I worked. I considered them good friends and patriotic Americans. I remember that they flew off to Washington DC on the morning of the 9/11 attacks, volunteering to help translate for the FBI to hunt down the terrorists.

Over-generalization and intransigence can have disastrous results and missed opportunities... less than 100 years ago, laws were specifically passed to keep my ancestors from immigrating to this great nation, by people who believed we were aliens, and called us that in the laws they wrote...now many of my "brothers and sisters" who made it here and settled have contributed to the progress of our country...

Look at the history of Christianity...the scourge of the earth in the days of the Crusades...and then a few hundred years later...

The overwhelming trend in the modern world is something the Europeans have themselves to blame, since the days of Columbus: globalization...whether peaceful or violent, the process is inexorable and will not have a pure, homogenous result...only a mixture of amalgamations...



Man, this is a hard post to respond too, I've already deleted my 3 attempts.

Let's start with the Christian / Crusades reference... I don't think canon law has any place in government either. I believe our constitution was written in a way that attempted to keep canon law out of government, because the people that came here wanted to be free from the religious persecution and dictatorships that ultimately spawn from such laws. I don't find them infallible though, because they obviously didn't give a sh1t about the people that were here before them. In any case, with all it's history, I think this countries system is far better than most, and I think we as a country over time have influenced other countries to follow suit to build a better system.

The problem with fundamental Islam is like I said before, it governs and micromanages the lives of it's followers. It's not equivalent to anything else we've seen through history, because like a virus, it tries to attach itself to everything that it touches. They try to instill Sharia law in every place they have a significant population.

I think of fundamental Islam as being akin to a virus. It basically creeps into every facet of the lives of it's followers, and as such, it's followers try to instill it everywhere that it is not... and left unchecked, it will kill the host.

Almost all active conflicts in the world involve some sect of fundamental Islamists, where most of it is them fighting each other because they can't agree on who the ruler of a would be caliphate should be... and once a group does gain power, they all rule with an iron fist... because that's what their religion dictates.

What I'm trying to say is, you're not comparing apples to apples.
bgz Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Further, as others have said... other Muslim ruled countries won't take the Palestinians in because they know without a shadow of a doubt that they will try to overthrow them.

Just ask Jordan.

bgz Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201601/attacking-isis-fighting-virus-the-mind
DrMaddVibe Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,407
bgz wrote:
Man, this is a hard post to respond too, I've already deleted my 3 attempts.

Let's start with the Christian / Crusades reference... I don't think canon law has any place in government either. I believe our constitution was written in a way that attempted to keep canon law out of government, because the people that came here wanted to be free from the religious persecution and dictatorships that ultimately spawn from such laws. I don't find them infallible though, because they obviously didn't give a sh1t about the people that were here before them. In any case, with all it's history, I think this countries system is far better than most, and I think we as a country over time have influenced other countries to follow suit to build a better system.

The problem with fundamental Islam is like I said before, it governs and micromanages the lives of it's followers. It's not equivalent to anything else we've seen through history, because like a virus, it tries to attach itself to everything that it touches. They try to instill Sharia law in every place they have a significant population.

I think of fundamental Islam as being akin to a virus. It basically creeps into every facet of the lives of it's followers, and as such, it's followers try to instill it everywhere that it is not... and left unchecked, it will kill the host.

Almost all active conflicts in the world involve some sect of fundamental Islamists, where most of it is them fighting each other because they can't agree on who the ruler of a would be caliphate should be... and once a group does gain power, they all rule with an iron fist... because that's what their religion dictates.

What I'm trying to say is, you're not comparing apples to apples.



Deep post. I've read it 3 times already.
MACS Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,769
Anyone seen the video of the "dead Palestinian martyrs" covered in white sheets, where one has an itchy nose... and he moves to scratch it, showing that they're not actually dead... just being used for propaganda videos?

I did.
victor809 Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... how do you know that video was produced by the Palestinians and not by a group looking to discredit them by producing a visibly fake video?
Abrignac Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,268
victor809 wrote:
... how do you know that video was produced by the Palestinians and not by a group looking to discredit them by producing a visibly fake video?


WGAF?
frankj1 Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
youse guys get to punch each other tomorrow
Abrignac Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,268
frankj1 wrote:
youse guys get to punch each other tomorrow


Isn’t it past your bed time?
frankj1 Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Abrignac wrote:
Isn’t it past your bed time?

just got home from smoking and drinking.
But still have enough sense to tell you to gfy!

HA!
Abrignac Offline
#126 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,268
frankj1 wrote:
just got home from smoking and drinking.
But still have enough sense to tell you to gfy!

HA!



Lol
MACS Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,769
victor809 wrote:
... how do you know that video was produced by the Palestinians and not by a group looking to discredit them by producing a visibly fake video?


Arabic writing on the sheets? The language spoken in the video? I dunno... probably just my personal experience with arabs and muslims in general. You ever spent time in the middle east? Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, UAE?

I have. They stink. Bad. And they lie. Bad.

I mean... that and the fact they all refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist.
frankj1 Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Abrignac wrote:
Lol

ha!
Abrignac Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,268
Stick a fork in me I'm done.
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