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“Wow, that’s intense.”
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DrafterX Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 7:24 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
A Democratic congressional candidate in Colorado released a campaign ad featuring himself being pepper sprayed in the eyes in a bid to encourage non-lethal self-defense tools in schools to deter gun violence.


Levi Tillemann, who’s trying to woo the voters in the upcoming party’s primary in less than two weeks, criticized President Trump’s suggestion to arm school officials and teachers with guns, claiming pepper spray is a better alternative to stop potential school shooters.

“I’m calling on Congress to stop talking past each other and try something new,” Tilleman says in the video. “Empower schools and teachers with non-lethal self-defense tools, like this can of pepper spray.”


“Empower schools and teachers with non-lethal self-defense tools, like this can of pepper spray.”

- Levi Tillemann
“Pepper spray doesn’t cost much and it can be safely stored in a break glass in case of emergency cabinet. But it’s powerful and won’t accidentally kill a kid,” he continued. “Trust me, this will stop anybody in their tracks.”

The Democrat then proceeded to close his eyes and began spraying the pepper spray in his face. He’s later seen trying to wash off his face by dunking his head into water and spraying himself with a hose. “It’s incredibly painful, now I can’t see anything,” he said. “Wow, that’s intense.”

Film at 11... Mellow
rfenst Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 8:42 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,261
I wonder what other electoral stunts he is willing to perform?
Mr. Jones Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 9:59 AM EST
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
I watched that on YouTube...

Kind of intense...

He dipped his pepper SPRAY Laced face into a clear plastic tub filled with blue liquid ( color of windshield fluid or Windex)...
Why? I don't know...perhaps his dad was GREEK AND USED WINDEX FOR EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 10:19 AM EST
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
When confronting an armed murderer intent on killing everyone in sight, would you like to have;
a) your own gun that you have trained with
b) pepper spray
c) a bucket of rocks
d) none of the above, as I don't believe the answer to violance is more violance. It is more moral to allow the murderer to kill me.

Since I would like to try and live through the situation, I'll pick "a", though I really do know some folk who would pick "d".

David (dpnewell)
Gene363 Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 11:17 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,802
Mrs. dpnewell wrote:
When confronting an armed murderer intent on killing everyone in sight, would you like to have;
a) your own gun that you have trained with
b) pepper spray
c) a bucket of rocks
d) none of the above, as I don't believe the answer to violance is more violance. It is more moral to allow the murderer to kill me.

Since I would like to try and live through the situation, I'll pick "a", though I really do know some folk who would pick "d".

David (dpnewell)


"a" absolutely.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 11:28 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I'd like to hear more about the rocks... are they valuable rocks? laden with precious stones perhaps?

I mean, if the guy is intent on killing "everyone in sight" what are the odds he'd actually get to me before I could high tail it out of there, bucket of diamond encrusted rocks in hand...

I'm gonna pick c, the bucket of precious stones... I'm gonna heave the lightest one at the guys head and then run like a cracked-out kenyan to the nearest airport, get to jamaica, cash in the stones, live like a king...
victor809 Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 11:32 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Your question fails to take into account the rest of the time.

What do you think the odds are that you are ever going to need to confront a "violent murderer intent on killing everyone in sight"? I'm not sure what they actually are, as the likelihood would depend on where you live/work etc. But given you're in the burbs (or rural) it's likely pretty low.

Then you have to consider time... Even if you need to confront said violent murderer, you're only doing so for a minute or two of your life. Let's say 5 min. To make sure you have your gun on you for that 5 min you need to ensure you have it on you for the other 26,280,000 minutes (assuming 50 years of gun ownership) as well.

That's 26million minutes where something could go wrong and you have a gun when you wish you didn't have a gun. Violent conflicts which should just result in a fist fight... Doing backflips to show off and accidentally shooting someone when your gun falls out of your pants... Drinking...

I personally would rather not have to carry a gun for 26 million minutes to make sure I have one for the 5 min it may be necessary... I'll just improvise, thank you very much... Or get shot... That's not that terrible an outcome either....
DrafterX Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 1:23 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
Al knows the Kung Fu.. Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 1:27 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
Also knows the Kung Fu.. Mellow

Snatch the pebble from my hand little asshopper...Anxious
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
Yeah, I only have car insurance when I'm in a wreck.
victor809 Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 3:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
And it's my right to choose whether I want to deal with the cost/burden of it and whether it's worth the effort.

The question was what you would prefer. I gave my answer. I'm not telling other people what to do.

Carrying a gun is a risk. If you're carrying a gun and get into a fight with someone, there's a chance you can get shot by your own gun. Or that you could shoot someone who you only intended to beat a little bit. You have to be constantly responsible for your weapon if you carry one. I don't find that worth the small risk I would need one.

Your mileage may vary. I've made it 43 years without needing one, and been in plenty of situations where if I had one it would have been much worse. For me I've made the right decision.
DrafterX Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
You woulda popped a cap in some ass..?? Huh
victor809 Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 4:23 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Who knows. I certainly would not have been able to do some of the things I've done if I had been armed.

Hell... I've chased cars down the street with no plan of what I was going to do if I caught them other than smash any part of the car I could reach.... The irony is that by the time I almost caught up I had resigned myself to getting my azz beat by the 4 people inside... Only to have them panic and run a red light in front of a cop.

If I had a gun would I have been lazy and just popped a few shots off? I certainly couldn't plan of smashing parts of their car while armed, that becomes a much different crime.

You can't beat on homeless people while armed. That becomes a much different crime.

You can't interject yourself in bar fights your drunk friends are e getting into when you're armed.... What if one of the two grabs your gun while you're in the middle of the two?

This is all crap that's happened in the past 5 or 6 years...
ZRX1200 Offline
#14 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 4:46 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
So people who carry are caught up in dream scenarios, yet you're making arguments while not even understanding the whole point of CC....^^^
ZRX1200 Offline
#15 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 4:48 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
I've made it 42 years without shooting anyone.

I did brandish once to remove vermin from my mom's front yard once. They schit their pants when I came out with my scary machine gun and a shaved head in my undies.
delta1 Offline
#16 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 4:52 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
Worked patrol in several school and community college districts, some in blighted urban areas, without carrying a gun...got involved in several physical arrests and broke up many fights...and afterwards realized a sidearm would have been a liability...deadly force was not necessary in any of those cases, but could have become a possibility had I been carrying and the suspect tried to get my weapon. Working on campus, you always have to think about the back-ground of a potential shooting...

Only a couple of times during my career did I feel that I needed a weapon. One was protecting a college campus in Long Beach during the Rodney King riots, as nearby businesses went up in flames and groups of thugs roamed the adjacent streets. The other time was working a college football game with two other officers. After the game, two rival gangs gathered outside the stadium...on one side the group included several members of our college's team. The three of us, armed only with batons and pepper spray, got between the two large groups of angry gang-bangers, prolly 75-100 guys in all......we were surrounded, and yelling at the top of our lungs telling them to disperse...after several tense minutes of stand-off we heard the "whoop whoop" of sirens and flashing blues and reds from two LASO patrol cars...man, were we relieved to see those guys...
victor809 Offline
#17 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 5:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Z... My scenarios are real. I am 100% certain that having a gun on me would have been a detriment in each of them.

What am I missing?
victor809 Offline
#18 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 5:02 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
The funny thing is I'm not even trying to tell anyone whether they can carry or not. I am on record saying I think everyone should be allowed to have a nuke if they want it.

But here you are trying to tell me I should have been carrying a gun for my own safety all these years...
gummy jones Offline
#19 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 5:11 PM EST
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
It's better than nothing

But the idea it "stops anyone in their tracks" is categorically false
ZRX1200 Offline
#20 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 5:19 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
Bro I'm all for you not carrying, you're comfortable with your level of prrotection.
Speyside Offline
#21 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 6:41 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
This is one of the moronic things I have ever seen. Bring pepper spray to a gun fight? Oh wait, I have to break the glass to get it. Oh wait, it's in the hall on the other side of the shooter. Gomer Pyle, " Citizens arrest".
cacman Offline
#22 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 7:31 PM EST
Joined: 07-03-2010
Posts: 12,216
Gave my daughter a can of pepper spray when she started attending high-school. It set-off the metal detector she had to walk through just to enter. 2 police officers (one women) took her into another room and searched her. Police called me into the school. They asked if I was aware of my daughter carrying a can of pepper spray to school. Told them I gave it to her for protection, especially since pocket knives are no longer allowed in school. The pepper spray (like knives) were legal purchase regardless of age. They let her off with a warning instead of a 3-day suspension, but kept the pepper spray. This was 10yrs ago. Doubt anything will change. But the absurd antics performed by politicians will continue.

We know carry bear spray. Shoots a lot further, and makes pepper spray seem like watered down red hot.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#23 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 8:12 PM EST
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
I have home owner's insurance, yet I've never needed it. I have motor vehicle insurance, yet I've need needed it. I have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers in my homes, yet I've never needed them. I have emergency food, water and blankets in my vehicles, as well as first aid kits, fire extinguishers and road flares, yet I've never had to use any of them. I have strong locks on the doors of my homes and security cameras, yet no one has ever tried to break in. I have a CPR certification, yet I've never had the need to use it. I wear a seat belt, yet I've never been in a motor vehicle accident. I'm careful of where and what I eat, even though I've never had food poisoning.

What a fool I've been spending all this time and money on things I may never need or use.
Krazeehorse Offline
#24 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 9:00 PM EST
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
victor809 wrote:
The funny thing is I'm not even trying to tell anyone whether they can carry or not. I am on record saying I think everyone should be allowed to have a nuke if they want it.

But here you are trying to tell me I should have been carrying a gun for my own safety all these years...


Just curious as to how many people you beat on in those 43 years.
Mattie B Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2018, 9:19 PM EST
Joined: 12-12-2005
Posts: 6,350
Twice now I have found myself agreeing with Victor. This is so perplexing. I may need to seriously do some self reflection.

Victor I am thrilled to know that you don’t carry. I would be very concerned if we were out and you were packing. Uneasy might be the word I’m looking for. Perhaps terrified.

As for me, I can’t think of a single time I was carrying and wished I wasn’t.

Make up your own mind Victor. Don’t let them pressure you into anything.
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 12:29 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Dave... Insurance doesn't impact your life or force you to act in a specific way. Carrying a gun does. If you don't think it requires that you be more responsible than if you did not have it on you, then I would argue that you shouldn't own one.

Having a gun on you changes your interactions with people.
Have you ever found yourself having to hit someone or wrestle them to the ground while carrying your gun? That seems like those options are closed off. I prefer to have those options available to me, and in trade I'm willing to not have a gun in the event I may need one.

Everyone should have their options open to them.

Ironically, my cousin's kid just got sent to prison last month for shooting a guy because he owed him 2k$. If he didn't have a gun on him he could have just beat the guy a little and avoided serious prison time.
victor809 Offline
#27 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 12:29 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Mattie... I know you're kind of tounge in cheek on that, but that's fine.
RMAN4443 Offline
#28 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 4:27 AM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
ZRX1200 wrote:
I've made it 42 years without shooting anyone.

I did brandish once to remove vermin from my mom's front yard once. They schit their pants when I came out with my scary machine gun and a shaved head in my undies.

Yipes I pooped a little just hearing the story...Anxious
Mattie B Offline
#29 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 9:03 AM EST
Joined: 12-12-2005
Posts: 6,350
Victor

I was sincere. I’m thankful you don’t carry a firearm.
Really
Seriously
ZRX1200 Offline
#30 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 10:48 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
F*** Victor, I knew MattieB was serious.....

Pessimist much?
victor809 Offline
#31 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 10:59 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Yep... In the same way that I would say I'm thankful you don't have a job sponge bathing octogenarians...
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 11:04 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
Z is their favorite... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#33 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 11:32 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
That's because he cleans them where no one else does....
Mr. Jones Offline
#34 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 11:50 AM EST
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
If the shooter is carrying a bottle of blue Windex your pepper spray is worthless...

Is what the candidate seems to be saying...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#35 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Did someone tell you that you can clean pepper spray out of your eyes using Windex? I'm not saying it won't work, and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, i just wanna know the identity of the comic genius responsible for successfully passing this tidbit of information on to you...
frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 1:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
victor809 wrote:
Yep... In the same way that I would say I'm thankful you don't have a job sponge bathing octogenarians...

Job?
He's a volunteer!
dstieger Offline
#37 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 1:11 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
A very patient volunteer
ZRX1200 Offline
#38 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 2:05 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
I only volunteer at the house for the blind.
frankj1 Offline
#39 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 6:27 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
no eye witness, eh?
MACS Offline
#40 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 6:35 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,751
So, Victor... your odds of getting into a car accident are pretty slim. You gonna forego wearing your seat belt?

You probably aren't going to die before you're 70... but what if you do? Don't you want to have life insurance?

I'd bet the kids in Columbine didn't think their odds of getting shot were very high. Or the people in the theater, or at the other schools, or at the night club... but I'd bet you most of them would have LOVED to be able to shoot back if they had it to do over. Your argument is foolish.

The odds of a cop getting shot are pretty slim, even in today's atmosphere... let's forego the ballistic vests from now on.

For the record... I don't care if you carry or not. I'm not telling you that you should or shouldn't. I'm just saying your argument is dumb.
MACS Offline
#41 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 6:56 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,751
Okay... I prolly could have read the other replies before I wrote all that. Whatever.
victor809 Offline
#42 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 7:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS. You are missing the point entirely.
Wearing a seatbelt doesn't restrict your choices while driving.
I don't actually have life insurance... Why bother?

As for the shooting victims, that's just a dumb argument. Of course if I know the day and time I'm going to get shot at I'll choose to have a gun. But guess what, that's the same dumb argument that started this... I don't think it's worth carrying every day to make sure you have a gun in those few minutes. Playing "what if" with timelines like this is ridiculous, simply because it changes too many variables. Every minute of every day of your life things happen which can go wrong. It isn't just the big exciting explosive events.

Ballistic vests... I don't imagine they are that uncomfortable or restrict the choices they have when wearing them, but if a cop thinks it is, why would I tell him it's dumb not to wear one?

Again, this is about options. A gun adds one option but takes away a number of others. Every minute of day you carry a gun you do not have the options which were taken away, but have the one additional option which it provides. I have personally found that having those options which a gun takes away to be options which I enjoy having. I would not choose to exchange them.
Speyside Offline
#43 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 7:30 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
? What options does carrying a gun take away?
victor809 Offline
#44 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 7:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... getting in a normal fight... ?
tailgater Offline
#45 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 8:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
... getting in a normal fight... ?

Normal fight.

Mano y mano.
victor809 Offline
#46 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 8:14 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
.... Gotta make it sound sexual...
MACS Offline
#47 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 8:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,751
Speyside wrote:
? What options does carrying a gun take away?


None.
victor809 Offline
#48 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 9:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
.... If you're carrying a gun and someone shoves you, what will you do macs?
victor809 Offline
#49 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 9:37 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Or a more interesting scenario.... If they randomly hit your wife? (And yes sh$t like that happens with the homeless here)
MACS Offline
#50 Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2018, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,751
Oooh, look who is talking about unlikely scenarios NOW.

My reaction would be the same, in either case.
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