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delta1 Offline
#151 Posted: Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:12 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
They are given attention because he's the POTUS, and they are classified as "official" statements, due to his office. But as far as establishing reliable indicators of American plans, policies and objectives...they have been dubious. From the beginning, his own advisers and administration have had to clarify, interpret and correct a large number of his tweets.

Middle Eastern and past dictators engage in bluster and many have made outrageously silly statements in order to "threaten" the US. True, some terrorists have made similar sorts of statements, and should be taken seriously if they make threats that have been followed by action. That's why, in the aftermath of 9/11, our national security apparatus has multiplied in size.
dstieger Offline
#152 Posted: Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:24 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
So....ignore the tweets, but watch for real policy moves?

Funny...that's exactly what I read Kevin O'Leary (Shark guy) to say very recently.


Trump absolutely OWNS the news cycle - and that's in no small part due to his tweeting.....ignore most of it....but standby because the mainstream media isn't going to
victor809 Offline
#153 Posted: Tue, Jul 24 2018, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... different types of "ignore".

The world in general (and I suspect even American trump critics) ignore his tweets from a policy standpoint. Point of fact, note I did not in any way start this thread to discuss whether he's trying to get in a war with Iran... Because of his constant lying, his talking without even knowing what the facts are, and his (likely) inability to point to Iran on a map, I don't think anyone actually believes his tweets are indicative of actual action.

However, I'm certainly not going to ignore the idiotic things the president of the United States tweets regularly. The shame that our president can't even keep his tiny little hands off the phone and try being "so presidential you'll be bored" (remember that lie?). No. Some of the times that our president brings shame to our country through ridiculous displays of stupidity, I'm going to point it out. (Not even all... I don't have that kind of time... It's really ridiculous if you follow what he writes and,/or says on a daily basis).

Don't conflate the two dstieg....
frankj1 Offline
#154 Posted: Tue, Jul 24 2018, 7:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
HuckFinn wrote:
From Murray's Toggery Shop?

that would be one option...
tailgater Offline
#155 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
HuckFinn wrote:
TG would tell him to read The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
Actually might be good first book for Donny.


He won't read it. He'll just buy the rights.

In the meantime, it's a shame you can't follow a simple progression.
tailgater Offline
#156 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:55 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Is a Toggery anything like a Tuggery?
Speyside Offline
#157 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:34 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
TH, I could explain why Victors, and Hucks, and my opinions about Trump have validity. Unfortunately I cannot understand them for you.
HuckFinn Offline
#158 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:37 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
tailgater wrote:
He won't read it. He'll just buy the rights.

In the meantime, it's a shame you can't follow a simple progression.



I don't follow...
dstieger Offline
#159 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:43 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Speyside wrote:
TH, I could explain why Victors, and Hucks, and my opinions about Trump have validity. Unfortunately I cannot understand them for you.


Allen, please go ahead.

Wait...actually, don't.

Please do go ahead and explain and defend what your opinion of Trump is.

The validity explanation part shouldn't be necessary, if you can do that.
teedubbya Offline
#160 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:52 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dstieger the thing is you would listen. you may not change your mind but you would listen and at times argue against or with what is said.


When repeatedly someone chooses to argue with something other than what was said and then think that somehow brings victory in the argument it becomes difficult to take them seriously anymore. I used to think it was intentional trolling and funny in its own way. I'm beginning to wonder now.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#161 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:54 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
dstieger the thing is you would listen. you may not change your mind but you would listen and at times argue against or with what is said.


When repeatedly someone chooses to argue with something other than what was said and then think that somehow brings victory in the argument it becomes difficult to take them seriously anymore. I used to think it was intentional trolling and funny in its own way. I'm beginning to wonder now.


Obama did the same thing and i didn't hear you complaining about it then... #checkmate
HuckFinn Offline
#162 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:55 AM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
tailgater wrote:
Is a Toggery anything like a Tuggery?


Not sure I wanna know what a Tuggery is.

It is a Thuggery....if you've seen their prices
teedubbya Offline
#163 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:56 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Obama did the same thing and i didn't hear you complaining about it then... #checkmate



I don't get it. I wasn't talking about Trump or any politicians, but Obama is and always has been a POS

Unless you were just being funny with the but obama thing. in that case I get humor....sometimes
dstieger Offline
#164 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:58 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
teedubbya wrote:

When repeatedly someone chooses to argue with something other than what was said and then think that somehow brings victory in the argument it becomes difficult to take them seriously anymore.



Not your finest sentence ever, TW...but...I like it, in a sorta fd up way, however.
teedubbya Offline
#165 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 11:59 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
maybe I'm reading it wrong or it didn't come out like I wanted.... whats wrong with it?

And I was saying that is NOT what you do
Speyside Offline
#166 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:01 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Dave, here is the way I see it.

Trump wants to silence the press. Freedom of the press is protected by the constitution. Trump courts our enemies, and distances us from our allies. He wants the American people to believe his lies. He wants to run the country in an autocratic manner which is how he ran his Buisiness. He has surrounded himself with people whose legal problems seem to increase by the day. He does not care about the climate. He has weakened important governmental groups such as the EPA. He has increased our debt. He is tryranical. Everything Obama did he wants to undo. He bows to dictators. And I could keep going for a long time.
dstieger Offline
#167 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
teedubbya wrote:
maybe I'm reading it wrong or it didn't come out like I wanted.... whats wrong with it?

And I was saying that is NOT what you do



I understood.

Its a stream of consciousness style ...I use it, too...but sometimes it takes three or four reads to get it
delta1 Offline
#168 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
kinda like Trump's tweets...


(full circle)
dstieger Offline
#169 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:15 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Speyside wrote:
Dave, here is the way I see it.

Trump wants to silence the press. Freedom of the press is protected by the constitution. Trump courts our enemies, and distances us from our allies. He wants the American people to believe his lies. He wants to run the country in an autocratic manner which is how he ran his Buisiness. He has surrounded himself with people whose legal problems seem to increase by the day. He does not care about the climate. He has weakened important governmental groups such as the EPA. He has increased our debt. He is tryranical. Everything Obama did he wants to undo. He bows to dictators. And I could keep going for a long time.


Won't argue your points...except to say that I too am concerned about the debt

I can, however, envision a potential outcome in which, even if I take all of the above as 'truth', the country is better off when he leaves office than before

Not liking him isn't enough for me suggest that he's doing lasting (net) damage to the nation....I think that a net positive is still not out of the question
opelmanta1900 Offline
#170 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
I don't get it. I wasn't talking about Trump or any politicians, but Obama is and always has been a POS

Unless you were just being funny with the but obama thing. in that case I get humor....sometimes



I was trying to "argue with something other than what was said" and then claiming "victory in the argument"... failed attempt at humor... sorry... I'll let the adults get back to it...
delta1 Offline
#171 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:24 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Some damage can't be measured in short periods of time...unleashing businesses that do serious damage to our water, air and ecosystems will take incalculable amounts of money to repair, if repair is possible. How does one measure the health risks of contaminated water and air?

Those businesses will be long gone, bankrupt, leaving our kids and their fellow Americans to foot the bill. Look at all the Superfund sites that we, the taxpayers, are paying for and will continue to pay. Some are so severe that we'll be cleaning/containing them for centuries to come, while the people/businesses that did the damage are history.
tailgater Offline
#172 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:32 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
HuckFinn wrote:
I don't follow...


Just when I think you've gone off the deep end, you say something like this.
And totally redeem yourself!
dstieger Offline
#173 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
delta1 wrote:
Some damage can't be measured in short periods of time...unleashing businesses that do serious damage to our water, air and ecosystems will take incalculable amounts of money to repair, if repair is possible. How does one measure the health risks of contaminated water and air?

Those businesses will be long gone, bankrupt, leaving our kids and their fellow Americans to foot the bill. Look at all the Superfund sites that we, the taxpayers, are paying for and will continue to pay. Some are so severe that we'll be cleaning/containing them for centuries to come, while the people/businesses that did the damage are history.

That does sound serious. Can you be more specific?
DrafterX Offline
#174 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:50 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
Obama and Hillary both tried to silence FoxNews... Even tho they're Fair & Balanced... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#175 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Here's a list of current Superfund sites the EPA is managing. Many on the list were caused by unregulated businesses.

https://www.epa.gov/superfund/search-superfund-sites-where-you-live
dstieger Offline
#176 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Thanks. I'm vaguely familiar with Superfund Sites. Did Trump do all that?
teedubbya Offline
#177 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:03 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I was trying to "argue with something other than what was said" and then claiming "victory in the argument"... failed attempt at humor... sorry... I'll let the adults get back to it...



I thought that's what you may have meant
HuckFinn Offline
#178 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:04 PM EST
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
Speyside wrote:
TH, I could explain why Victors, and Hucks, and my opinions about Trump have validity. Unfortunately I cannot understand them for you.

A bit of friendly advise: don't start conversations with people when they're counting their money.

Or eating fish.
teedubbya Offline
#179 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:05 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dstieger wrote:
I understood.

Its a stream of consciousness style ...I use it, too...but sometimes it takes three or four reads to get it



I understand.... when I compare my writing in here to my thesis or business writing its shameful. I'm a living example of the fact you can turn it on and off
teedubbya Offline
#180 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
DrafterX wrote:
Obama and Hillary both tried to silence FoxNews... Even tho they're Fair & Balanced... Mellow



They did nothing compared to what your orange superhero is trying to do in that regard.
delta1 Offline
#181 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
dstieger wrote:
Thanks. I'm vaguely familiar with Superfund Sites. Did Trump do all that?




No. Most were caused in the past, and their existence led to environmental regulations on businesses to prevent similar future catastrophes.

Trump's dismantling and fund cutting of the EPA will negatively impact our ability to sustain the current efforts to clean those messes. His deregulation of businesses and reduction of monitoring efforts, especially the oil and gas industries, will create an invitation to operate without regard for the potential damage they can cause, damage that may not become apparent until after his tenure.

We don't need to hand off more crap like these to our kids...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/americas-28-most-polluted-places
DrafterX Offline
#182 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:15 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
“One of the biggest challenges we have to our democracy is the degree to which we don’t share a common baseline of facts,” Obama said. "If you watch Fox News, you are living on a different planet than you are if you are listening to NPR.”




And then he said somethin about viewers mommas... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#183 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:17 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
That statement is still correct. Thats why the orange guy forbids anything but Fox
dstieger Offline
#184 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 1:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
delta1 wrote:
No. Most were caused in the past, and their existence led to environmental regulations on businesses to prevent similar future catastrophes.

Trump's dismantling and fund cutting of the EPA will negatively impact our ability to sustain the current efforts to clean those messes. His deregulation of businesses and reduction of monitoring efforts, especially the oil and gas industries, will create an invitation to operate without regard for the potential damage they can cause, damage that may not become apparent until after his tenure.

We don't need to hand off more crap like these to our kids...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/americas-28-most-polluted-places


I'm not familiar with any specific regulations being rolled back. You make some demonstrative claims with no specificity.
I have no doubt there exist some possibility that the environment MIGHT be negatively affected. What are the specific negative potential effects that you're concerned about? And, what is the expected economic impact of actual changes?

As much as I am an Ayn Rand devotee, I acknowledge that totally unregulated business will probably have a pizzpoor outcome for society. But, I still advocate for reasoned analysis for each regulation/deregulation based on sound science and best data available. Simply saying that 'deregulation....will create an invitation to operate without regard for potential damage' is a bit irresponsible...or maybe just lazy.
DrafterX Offline
#185 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 3:12 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
The excessive regulations like demanding 50mpg on all vehicles that were rolled back.. Mellow
delta1 Offline
#186 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
dstieger wrote:
I'm not familiar with any specific regulations being rolled back. You make some demonstrative claims with no specificity.
I have no doubt there exist some possibility that the environment MIGHT be negatively affected. What are the specific negative potential effects that you're concerned about? And, what is the expected economic impact of actual changes?

As much as I am an Ayn Rand devotee, I acknowledge that totally unregulated business will probably have a pizzpoor outcome for society. But, I still advocate for reasoned analysis for each regulation/deregulation based on sound science and best data available. Simply saying that 'deregulation....will create an invitation to operate without regard for potential damage' is a bit irresponsible...or maybe just lazy.



I'll give you a personal example. I live in SoCal...grew up before the advent of the AQMD and the EPA. Air quality here was among the worst in the world...many people burned their trash in backyard incinerators when I was a kid. Cars' exhaust was not regulated. There were many days when school was cancelled and the public health administrator ordered parents to keep their kids inside. There was a brown haze just about every day. There were only about 10 - 15 million people in CA and 2 - 2.5 M in LA county in the 50's-60's. I was diagnosed with asthma then, likely due to breathing the air. Asthma is a very common disease among people living in SoCal.

Air quality standards emerged from the Clean Air Act of 1963, the first national regulation seeking to control air quality standards. Progressive amendments, in 1967, 1970, 1977 and 1990 resulted in the scrubbing of the air in the SoCal basin and throughout the US. There's still some haze on most days here, and LA still has some of the smoggiest air in the US, but the level of harmful pollutants is drastically reduced, even though the LA county population has gone up to more than 10 M, and more than 40M in CA.

Reducing emissions from industry and from vehicles achieved a healthier air quality throughout SoCal and the entire state. USC did a study on improved health benefits of cleaner LA air.

https://keck.usc.edu/southern-californias-reduction-in-smog-linked-to-major-improvement-in-childrens-respiratory-
health/

According to a study by the RAND Org., improved air quaility leads to economic growth.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR200/RR260/RAND_RR260.pdf


So, when Trump's administration directed the EPA to roll back clean air standards, I will be impacted.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-air-quality-20180412-story.html

the opening paragraphs of that article:
"President Trump took aim at federal air quality standards Thursday, directing the Environmental Protection Agency to relax restrictions on state governments and businesses that have been key to cutting smog.

In a memo, the president instructed EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt to more quickly review states' smog-reduction plans, make it easier for businesses to get air quality-related permits and to evaluate health-based smog and soot standards to determine whether they "should be revised or rescinded," among other directives."
DrafterX Offline
#187 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:16 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
Do you live by that Sriracha plant..?? Huh
delta1 Offline
#188 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:19 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
My SIL's parents and his brother's family live a few miles away. I like sriracha. I like MACS's new diesel truck.


Still take asthma meds everyday................................... and getting rid of the three cats really helped my breathing...
DrafterX Offline
#189 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:22 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
They steal your breath when you sleep... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#190 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:34 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
bassards...glad they died...well maybe not Christopher...he was a cool cat...
RMAN4443 Offline
#191 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:56 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
delta1 wrote:
bassards...glad they died...well maybe not Christopher...he was a cool cat...

Christopher was a *****..Anxious
delta1 Offline
#192 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 4:59 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Shame on you nuh uh
DrafterX Offline
#193 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 6:39 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
Did you throw them at cars on da freeway..?? Huh
delta1 Offline
#194 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:04 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Found an article that lists Trump's deregulation efforts in a variety of areas. Look specifically at those that affect the environment and tell me that no damage will be done, especially in protecting US Water Ways from industries situated nearby...

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/
delta1 Offline
#195 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:06 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
DrafterX wrote:
Did you throw them at cars on da freeway..?? Huh


poor lil kitties...an update of "Throw Momma from the Train"???
frankj1 Offline
#196 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:07 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
delta1 wrote:
Found an article that lists Trump's deregulation efforts in a variety of areas. Look specifically at those that affect the environment and tell me that no damage will be done, especially in protecting US Water Ways from industries situated nearby...

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/

he even picked a special friend of the environment to ruin ...er I mean run the EPA.
DrafterX Offline
#197 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:30 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
Pretty sure he just undid some Obama stuff and not eliminate all regulations.. regulations existed before Obama... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#198 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:31 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
A disaster-in-the-making is the Trump administration's decision to give an open pit mining project for gold, copper, molybdenum and other rich deposits of valuable metals, the Pebble Mine, in Alaska's Bristol Bay, an easier path in the permit process. This mining project will leave a gaping hole in some of the best salmon fisheries and scenic wildlife areas in the gorgeous state.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/climate-desk-the-future-of-alaska-pebble-mine-and-its-wild-sockeye-salmon
Speyside Offline
#199 Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:35 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Dave, most of what I said was my opinion. You asked a fair question and I wanted to give you a reasonable answer, no pot stirring involved. I think that each point I brought up does have verifiable occurrences that I could quote to back them up. Though clearly that is not the same as saying that my points are facts. I wish I had the optimism that you do about a net positive end game. Unfortunately I do not. I do appreciate that you listen, question, and think. I try to do the same. Though certainly at times my intent is to laugh, or provoke. I think a large problem is found on all sides. So many people do not listen, question, and think. This makes constructive dialogue near impossible. Though it does not happen often, from time to time my position on something changes due to learning a different perspective.
tailgater Offline
#200 Posted: Thu, Jul 26 2018, 9:19 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
DrafterX wrote:
Pretty sure he just undid some Obama stuff and not eliminate all regulations.. regulations existed before Obama... Mellow


This is a key point that is often overlooked.

Trump isn't approving a zero regulation policy. He's appeasing the industries that constantly fight and spend to stay current with ever increasing regulations.

People wonder why we lose so many jobs to foreign countries, but they want manufacturers to be magicians.
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