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The type of viewpoint that makes me want a better president.
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Speyside Offline
#1 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 1:05 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
News source, Politico

Trump administration tells ACLU to find deported parents.

The Trump administration on Thursday informed a federal judge that it isn't responsible for locating deported parents separated forcibly from their children at the southern border.

This viewpoint is reprehensible. No matter what your belief system is you should find this appalling.
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 1:24 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
The parents had a choice... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#3 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 1:39 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
So did the aclu...
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 1:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I like the word forcibly tho... Really makes it sound better.. Mellow
bgz Offline
#5 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 3:32 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Well, the parents shouldn't have been there anyway. It's been in the news... if you bring your kids to the border, odds are you're going to be separated from them.

It's not like they didn't know... they knew.. they still know... yet they keep showing up.
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Also wondered if they used they're real names when confronted with Border Patrol... That could make reuniting a little tough... Mellow
ZRX1200 Offline
#7 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
Reprehensible is sending your kids alone, and sending them with sex traffickers.
tailgater Offline
#8 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 4:55 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I like when Spey tells us what we should think.
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 4:57 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Spayed means well.... Mellow
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 6:52 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
Careful Tail.....you're about to get name called.....
Speyside Offline
#11 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 7:08 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Nah Z, I expressed my opinion, that's all. Drafter, you do make a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Z, TG, do you see what I pointed out as ok? Maybe I am gullible, but I believe anyone would see this as immoral.
teedubbya Offline
#12 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 9:00 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I’m amazed how often we justify things we do by blaming what others do. It’s not mutually exclusive. The parents can be accused of doing wrong, and the action we systematically take (splitting up families) can also be wrong. One doesn’t justify or make the other any better. It’s just a rationalization.

And yes some came alone or with child abusers blah blah blah. That’s the fringe not the norm. Also used to rationalize.

If you look at you or your governments actions on its own... forgetting all the periphery crap you can use to justify anything....are you ok with it. The action alone. If you are cool. I am not.

I’m also not ok with the parents actions and there should be consequences. In my opinion taking kids away is too much. YMMV.

Some of you are cool with or even happy with splitting up these families. That’s hard for me to imagine. I suspect some are just using any excuse they can to justify an unjustifiable action in the eyes of most the civilized world.
teedubbya Offline
#13 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 9:02 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Almost forgot. Tail and zrx are poopy heads.
frankj1 Offline
#14 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 9:03 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
teedubbya wrote:
I’m amazed how often we justify things we do by blaming what others do. It’s not mutually exclusive. The parents can be accused of doing wrong, and the action we systematically take (splitting up families) can also be wrong. One doesn’t justify or make the other any better. It’s just a rationalization.

And yes some came alone or with child abusers blah blah blah. That’s the fringe not the norm. Also used to rationalize.

If you look at you or your governments actions on its own... forgetting all the periphery crap you can use to justify anything....are you ok with it. The action alone. If you are cool. I am not.

I’m also not ok with the parents actions and there should be consequences. In my opinion taking kids away is too much. YMMV.

Some of you are cool with or even happy with splitting up these families. That’s hard for me to imagine. I suspect some are just using any excuse they can to justify an unjustifiable action in the eyes of most the civilized world.

I'm all in.
DrafterX Offline
#15 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 10:30 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I feel bad for the kids.. I'm not a complete ahole... But the parents made the choice.. I can kinda understand the thought process of giving the kids a better life maybe.. but to cry about it now after letting your kids being taken away just doesn't fly... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#16 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 11:02 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Forget the parents. Taking kids away in some cases permanently from someone committing a misdemeanor or applying for asylum is wrong in my opinion. You are clear, you are ok with it for whatever reasons. I’m not.

By the way the phrase “letting your kids being taken away” says a lot.
teedubbya Offline
#17 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 11:06 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And you are a poopy head.
ZRX1200 Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 11:17 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
You have to take them away until you verify they ARE THE PARENTS.......love the virtue signaling.
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Aug 3 2018, 11:25 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
The parents had a choice, take your kids back across the border or have them taken into protective custody... They made the choice... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#20 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:42 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
^ not so much

Virtue signaling...lol
bikrtrsh Offline
#21 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 1:02 AM EST
Joined: 01-29-2009
Posts: 134
Something is really wrong with our prez allowing families to be split up like that. I mean here locally, a lady got pulled over and arrested for having 3 grams of meth in the console ... kids went into protective custody.

Another local lady got arrested downtown for renting her booty out and her kids got taken in to protective custody. Her 9 year old said he was babysitting the 2 younger kids just fine! WTF!!! Why seperate families because dumbass parents make stoooopid life decisions? Bad prez.

Have you taken a look at the case loads child welfare case workers handle? Man, that's a lot of kids split from their families. We really need a better prez!

I wonder why those south of the border model parents didn't think of seeking asylum with the US embassy in Mexico City?

Unfortunately children tend to be the victims of their parent's bad life choices. But, I s'pose that too is blamed on the President of the United States.

I don't like any part of it either but I appreciate having our laws upheld. My friend Heber came here legally from Chihuahua Mexico. He spent several years going thru the red tape and is very proud of his citizenship. His father came to the US first, followed by mother. They left Heber and 2 sisters in Mexico. Their family was split up. Over the years they all made it here ... legally. He most certainly has no sympathy for those caught entering the US illegally (to put it lightly) His view is simply, "they knew the risk and were willing to accept it. Now that they're caught they shed tears." He says he "is proud to be able to vote and equally proud to have voted for Trump". I'm proud of him for taking his constitutional rights so seriously. It's a shame that so many American people who were born in this great country, don't.

And there you have ... my rant Herfing
tailgater Offline
#22 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 8:30 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
Nah Z, I expressed my opinion, that's all. Drafter, you do make a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Z, TG, do you see what I pointed out as ok? Maybe I am gullible, but I believe anyone would see this as immoral.


Doesn't matter what we think.
You already told us directly what we have to do.

"No matter what your belief system is you should find this appalling."

Not much wiggle room on that one.
tailgater Offline
#23 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 8:31 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
Almost forgot. Tail and zrx are poopy heads.


Card carrying.
tailgater Offline
#24 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 8:32 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
I'm all in.


I didn't think that was possible, Frankie T.
tailgater Offline
#25 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 8:48 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
On subject.

As much as I find it disheartening that young kids are without parents, there seems to be more to the story than the finger pointing by Trump haters.

It appears that we know where the kids are.
It is the parents that are MIA.

It also appears there is evidence to suggest that at least some of the kids were being used by NOT-their-parent adults to get over the border.

How are we to believe that real parents haven't come forward to say "my kid was taken away at x-location and on x-date"?

Were the kids shuttled randomly into holding cells around the country?
Because that's what people are hinting at with these accusations.

The news isn't about parents unable to find kids.
The news talks about kids with no parents demanding them back.

Are the parents in jail?
Dead?
Unaware their child is gone?

On the surface, the story is heartbreaking.
I can't help but be cynical on this one. At least until we learn more.
Speyside Offline
#26 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 8:56 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Sigh, Tail what is the point of conversing with you? You seem good with action that I see as child abuse. Why don't you care about what happens to those children? They are not responsible for their parents poor decisions. Yes, I own what I said. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say that if you don't find those actions immoral I simply will never be able to understand you or agree with you.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 9:02 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I heard some of the kids in cages fell off the truck when they were being transported... Mellow
tailgater Offline
#28 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 9:42 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
Sigh, Tail what is the point of conversing with you? You seem good with action that I see as child abuse. Why don't you care about what happens to those children? They are not responsible for their parents poor decisions. Yes, I own what I said. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say that if you don't find those actions immoral I simply will never be able to understand you or agree with you.


"Why don't you care about what happens to those children?"

I'll answer with a question of my own.

Speyside, Why don't you stop beating your wife?

Yeah, your question is THAT kind of question.


You make too many assumptions.
Those kids were seemingly abandoned. By their parents or by others who posed as their parents.
I want those kids to find a family and happiness in their lives, but you can't get past TRUMP.
Our government upheld laws and rules. Children weren't put in with the general adult population and special treatment wasn't assigned to families.

If my kids were taken from me while I was breaking into a country I would shout loud and long until I was reunited.

By all accounts, these kids sit in a facility.
We're waiting on parents to shout for them. Loud and long.

As for conversing with me?
Seems you're only happy when people agree with you.
And by "seems", I mean that you are incapable of conversing with anyone that has an opposing viewpoint. You get flustered. But you often make an ending declaration about "agree to disagree".

So you've got that going for you.
ZRX1200 Offline
#29 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 10:39 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
And the sanctimonious name calling.....he's got that too.

Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#30 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 10:45 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Tail forgetting the emotional stuff, which this issue certainly stokes in me as well as others, we understand the issue operationaly much differently. It’s not about parents not trying to get their children back. I have seen that odd spin as of late though. It’s more about a not so well thought out knee jerk policy with lack of documentation and tracking combined with by definition people who do not understand this country (often poorly educated) and sometimes the language who are also in legal jeopardy. The result is a perfect storm of the government and the parents not being able to identify where loved ones are and who belongs to whom. I fear in some instances they will never be matched up.

Forgetting everything else I like to apply the does it make sense test. While in a small number of instances perhaps it is true, do you really beleive on a large scale parents don’t give a crap where their kids are and don’t want to be with them? That goes contrary to human nature as I know it. I’ll concede desperation does odd things, but to think this is what is happening wide scale doesn’t add up. Sounds like a story to me.

We are having difficulty matching up who we took from who and where everyone was sent or went. We had a responsibility and we failed in our haste. And yes the parents have some culpability too. As I said it’s not mutually exclusive. However my government reflects on me. We failed at being the decent country we are. We must learn from it rather than justify it.
teedubbya Offline
#31 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 11:00 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And we must improve and enforce our immigration laws. Again, not mutually exclusive. It’s not either or. The choice is not doing this bogus crap or nothing. That’s a false argument.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 11:19 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
We should just take all the kids to Jerry's World or someplace and just let the parents pick them out... Mellow
tailgater Offline
#33 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 11:39 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
Tail forgetting the emotional stuff, which this issue certainly stokes in me as well as others, we understand the issue operationaly much differently. It’s not about parents not trying to get their children back. I have seen that odd spin as of late though. It’s more about a not so well thought out knee jerk policy with lack of documentation and tracking combined with by definition people who do not understand this country (often poorly educated) and sometimes the language who are also in legal jeopardy. The result is a perfect storm of the government and the parents not being able to identify where loved ones are and who belongs to whom. I fear in some instances they will never be matched up.

Forgetting everything else I like to apply the does it make sense test. While in a small number of instances perhaps it is true, do you really beleive on a large scale parents don’t give a crap where their kids are and don’t want to be with them? That goes contrary to human nature as I know it. I’ll concede desperation does odd things, but to think this is what is happening wide scale doesn’t add up. Sounds like a story to me.

We are having difficulty matching up who we took from who and where everyone was sent or went. We had a responsibility and we failed in our haste. And yes the parents have some culpability too. As I said it’s not mutually exclusive. However my government reflects on me. We failed at being the decent country we are. We must learn from it rather than justify it.


You downplay the parents responsibility here.
They did something that they knew was illegal.

I'm trying not to downplay our governments responsibility. We separated the children from the adults. I get it.

But I'm not seeing the distressed parents looking aimlessly for their kids.

The reports are clear: Our Government can't find the PARENTS.

You call that an "odd spin", but that shows an obvious bias.
I'm simply quoting the news reports.
MACS Offline
#34 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:06 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,741
teedubbya wrote:
I’m amazed how often we justify things we do by blaming what others do. It’s not mutually exclusive. The parents can be accused of doing wrong, and the action we systematically take (splitting up families) can also be wrong. One doesn’t justify or make the other any better. It’s just a rationalization.

And yes some came alone or with child abusers blah blah blah. That’s the fringe not the norm. Also used to rationalize.

If you look at you or your governments actions on its own... forgetting all the periphery crap you can use to justify anything....are you ok with it. The action alone. If you are cool. I am not.

I’m also not ok with the parents actions and there should be consequences. In my opinion taking kids away is too much. YMMV.

Some of you are cool with or even happy with splitting up these families. That’s hard for me to imagine. I suspect some are just using any excuse they can to justify an unjustifiable action in the eyes of most the civilized world.


We, as a society, put criminals in jail for committing crimes. They're separated from their families. Forcibly sometimes.

We do what we do because they did what they did. One is a result of the other... not a justification.
teedubbya Offline
#35 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Tail I think you are showing the bias. I hold the parents accountable too as I said. But our government reflect on me, they don’t. The government had a responsibility and failed.

Let’s stipulate the parents were wrong to come here although if they are seeking asylum I’m not so sure... but let’s stipulate it for argument. Let’s make this their fault. Now the government steps in and has some responsibilities.

The government takes their kids and doesn’t tell the parents where they send them. At the same time the government processes the parents separately and they either get sent home or somewhere in the us. No attempt was made to track either or to make provisions to reunite now the government has a kid “but can’t find the parent”. The parent could be in our system, in the us somewhere or out of country. The parent has no idea where their kid is and no way to find them. There is no documentation or link. And you assume in most cases the parent isn’t trying? That doesn’t pass the laugh test.

MACS we typically don’t separate families for misdemeanors without giving the. A way to track, follow and fight what’s going on with their kids. That line just doesn’t work in this scenario.
frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:38 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
You downplay the parents responsibility here.
They did something that they knew was illegal.

I'm trying not to downplay our governments responsibility. We separated the children from the adults. I get it.

But I'm not seeing the distressed parents looking aimlessly for their kids.

The reports are clear: Our Government can't find the PARENTS.

You call that an "odd spin", but that shows an obvious bias.
I'm simply quoting the news reports.


I truly have fallen behind current events, so I may have missed recent news releases...so I ask in all innocence if you are talking about newly released parents?

I was under the assumption that the parents are still being held, not released to randomly (aimlessly?) look for their kids.
Or are we talking about parents sent back without being reunited with their kids?

I'm not sure I get who/what you are talking about.
teedubbya Offline
#37 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:39 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
It was not well thought out on the governments part. They made a mistake.

Speyside Offline
#38 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 12:51 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tail, I can only work with what you state. You only focus on the parents wrongs. I am not concerned with that relative to this post. You say you get it about the kids, but your context is that the parents are primarily at fault. In fact you never state the government has a responsibility to reunite children with parents. This has been the conservative fall back position throughout. Shame on you. You are so wrapped up in defending Trump you are implicitly condoning child abuse. And BS, about telling you what to think. I expect you to act like a moral human being. I expect you to have compassion for children who are being psychologically damaged, probably for life. But I will quit expecting that, you are not the person I thought you were. You are no better than Z.
ZRX1200 Offline
#39 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 1:15 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
#GOTSANCTIMONY?


#DRIPPING!
tailgater Offline
#40 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 1:38 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
Tail I think you are showing the bias. I hold the parents accountable too as I said. But our government reflect on me, they don’t. The government had a responsibility and failed.

Let’s stipulate the parents were wrong to come here although if they are seeking asylum I’m not so sure... but let’s stipulate it for argument. Let’s make this their fault. Now the government steps in and has some responsibilities.

The government takes their kids and doesn’t tell the parents where they send them. At the same time the government processes the parents separately and they either get sent home or somewhere in the us. No attempt was made to track either or to make provisions to reunite now the government has a kid “but can’t find the parent”. The parent could be in our system, in the us somewhere or out of country. The parent has no idea where their kid is and no way to find them. There is no documentation or link. And you assume in most cases the parent isn’t trying? That doesn’t pass the laugh test.

MACS we typically don’t separate families for misdemeanors without giving the. A way to track, follow and fight what’s going on with their kids. That line just doesn’t work in this scenario.


No laugh test needed.

Show me a parent who had a kid separated from them and I'll show you a parent who doesn't sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to find them.

Otherwise, I'll show you a bad parent.
Or perhaps not a parent at all. But it's apparent to me.

See what I did there?
DrafterX Offline
#41 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 3:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Everyone acts like this is somethin new... There's only outrage now because it's a way to make Trump look bad... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#42 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 3:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
No laugh test needed.

Show me a parent who had a kid separated from them and I'll show you a parent who doesn't sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to find them.

Otherwise, I'll show you a bad parent.
Or perhaps not a parent at all. But it's apparent to me.

See what I did there?



that's what I was asking about above...what parents have been freed and are not searching for their kids?
I simply have no idea who you mean by these parents.

have there been any released into the USA and are not looking for their kids? That's what I'm reading from you twice now.
tailgater Offline
#43 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 4:01 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
that's what I was asking about above...what parents have been freed and are not searching for their kids?
I simply have no idea who you mean by these parents.

have there been any released into the USA and are not looking for their kids? That's what I'm reading from you twice now.


The news headlines read "government can't find parents of x number of kids"

It doesn't say "government can't find this parent's kids"

The kids and the government and the ACLU and the protesters are all looking for the parents of kids in captivity.

When the news becomes "parents can't find kids" we'll have a different conversation.

Until then, I don't want people to spin it into something it's not.
DrafterX Offline
#44 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 4:08 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Meanwhile, kids are eating, well seeing doctors and dentists and even psychiatrists if needed... If I had no home or money I might be OK with knowing my kids were eating and sleeping in a safe place... Just speculation of course.. my son never had to skip a meal luckily... It would be a tough decision but perhaps one some of 'these' parents made... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#45 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 4:31 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
Meanwhile, kids are eating, well seeing doctors and dentists and even psychiatrists if needed... If I had no home or money I might be OK with knowing my kids were eating and sleeping in a safe place... Just speculation of course.. my son never had to skip a meal luckily... It would be a tough decision but perhaps one some of 'these' parents made... Mellow

Hmmm, you mean like a paternal/maternal instinct kinda thing???Think ....I never thought of it from that angle...you could be onto something there...Think
teedubbya Offline
#46 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 5:33 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Tail the government can’t find the parents is not equal to the parents not trying to find their kids.
teedubbya Offline
#47 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 5:35 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
some may be that way. Sort of like putting them up for adoption. But the majority ..... no way.
frankj1 Offline
#48 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 5:40 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
teedubbya wrote:
Tail the government can’t find the parents is not equal to the parents not trying to find their kids.

hence my confusion.
I wasn't being coy.

if the parents are in jail, how could they be searching?

and when did we start believing the mass media news anyway?
teedubbya Offline
#49 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 5:49 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Some are not in jail but in the US or out of country. They are trying to get to their kids but not told where they are because often the government isn’t sure or is bogged down or dragging their feet. There is a push to get those folks lawyered up to try to force the return or sorting out of paperwork because those without lawyers are pretty helpless against the government.

The government failed their part and it’s going to take some undoing.

The notion that the majority of the parents are not using everything they have to get their kids back based on “the government can’t find the parents” is laughable. It’s reading in to things way too conveniently to support a view you want. The opposite is true too. The parents can’t find their children. That doesn’t mean they are not looking or trying.
teedubbya Offline
#50 Posted: Sat, Aug 4 2018, 5:57 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
By the way it’s hysterical to watch the anti government crowd dance around the fact the government and by association the government employees effed this up. It was a ham handed implementation that failed to follow the norms of such things at a very basic level. The government was inept at their implementation of this policy, didn’t establish proper rules or protocols, didn’t have basic documentation or record keeping and in their haste to implement the policy to please the masters completely botched things.

It is yet another example of the ineptness of the government. But we get so wound up defending or attacking trump that the people that normally think the government is inept and the anti government types attempt to pretend it’s others fault and the government is doing ok. Fascinating.

sometimes take a step back and if defending your guy (or bagging on the other or in this case illegal aliens) has you defending something you normally wouldn’t maybe you drifted down the river further than you thought.
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