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Pro choice/Pro life discussion
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Speyside Offline
#1 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 12:19 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I am pro choice, my friend Dan is pro life. I feel strongly that none of his tax money should fund abortions and twice as much of my tax money should fund abortions. I am not talking about him paying less taxes and me paying more taxes. Rather a redistribution of how part of our taxes are spent.

Also I think abortion is wrong, but feel a womans choice to control her own body takes precedence until such time as the fetus could become a viable human being outside of the womb.

Not looking for heated discussion, rather I thought these would be good discussions.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#2 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 12:25 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
1. You thought wrong.

2. You're gonna get what you're not looking for.
bgz Offline
#3 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 1:20 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I think we should encourage people to have more abortions... thus, I'm neither pro-life, nor pro-choice... but pro-abortion.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#4 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 1:44 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I did tell a guy in Vegas this weekend that he was the reason people got abortions... So I'm pro-abortion insults...
bgz Offline
#5 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 1:49 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
So we agree then :P
victor809 Offline
#6 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 1:53 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I'm with bgz on this.
I'm probably abortion up to the 57th trimester.... For any reason. Damn thing looks at you funny? Pull the plug.
victor809 Offline
#7 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 1:53 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Probably=pro... Damn phone
Gene363 Offline
#8 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:10 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
If a Mother choses to murder, (abortion = murder) her child, has consent from the Father and isn't past the first trimester, let the miserable biotches have at, the government has no business up a woman's skirt.

Public money should not be used for abortions, it's murder, not health care. One possible exception, if three doctors agree that childbirth would cause the death of the Mother its healthcare and in that case public funds would be acceptable, however, the operation should also include a tubal ligation.

Our civilization will be judged by how we treat the youngest and the oldest members of society.
bgz Offline
#9 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:17 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I've argued this on here before... You talk about public funds going towards unwanted pregnancies (or pregnancies of kids who have no business being parents)...

What's more expensive, an abortion, or a life of welfare and incarceration.

My position is a fiscally conservative position. I can also argue it's a better position for moral reasons as well, but I'm sold from the financial perspective... so I won't.
victor809 Offline
#10 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:26 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
It's funny you'd be wrong within the first sentence Gene.

Murder is defined by the state... Not by you. If a death is legal it isn't murder.
bgz Offline
#11 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:33 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
That's true, murder is defined as an unlawful killing.

Abortion != murder.

Looks like today is an agree with victor day.
victor809 Offline
#12 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Every day is an agree with Victor day. You just usually forget to check your calendar.
bgz Offline
#13 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 2:58 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
My dog ate it.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#14 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 3:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
if it gives him cancer victor will adopt him...
bgz Offline
#15 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 3:18 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
It did say on it that it contained materials known to cause cancer in the state of California, but he ate it here, and not in California, so he should be alright.
Just Relax Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 3:28 PM EST
Joined: 09-26-2016
Posts: 587
I’m pro life. Dividing taxes up based on what people want is a bad idea IMO. Donations can be made to causes on both sides. What bothers me is the way many pro lifers treat girls wanting an abortion. Instead of spewing hate on someone already in a terrible position that energy should be spent providing a better option for her in a loving manner. Instead of picketing planned parenthood and calling them whores spend that time lobbying for better paths for adoption for couples who want kids but can’t have them. If there were better options than killing a child and living with that for the rest of their life due to current circumstances I bet some would take it.
Gene363 Offline
#17 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
victor809 wrote:
It's funny you'd be wrong within the first sentence Gene.

Murder is defined by the state... Not by you. If a death is legal it isn't murder.


You are mistaken, I posted my opinion, this is a discussion, not necessarily current law. On the positive side, you appear to agree abortion causes a death.

FWIW, Many states have Fetal homicide laws, when even Kommefornia, "Cal. Penal Code § 187 (a) defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought."
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
Just Relax wrote:
I’m pro life. Dividing taxes up based on what people want is a bad idea IMO. Donations can be made to causes on both sides. What bothers me is the way many pro lifers treat girls wanting an abortion. Instead of spewing hate on someone already in a terrible position that energy should be spent providing a better option for her in a loving manner. Instead of picketing planned parenthood and calling them whores spend that time lobbying for better paths for adoption for couples who want kids but can’t have them. If there were better options than killing a child and living with that for the rest of their life due to current circumstances I bet some would take it.


There are better option, birth control is cheap and effective. Drop by most any public health department and they will be happy to send you out with free condoms. A woman is also free not to open that taco stand in the first place.
victor809 Offline
#19 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 4:12 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Gene...
Unlawful is the key word there. If the state made killing homeless legal, then it wouldn't be murder.

(Note... "State" in my statements is not individual states, it is "government")

Death is a relatively meaningless word. I can cause death to a fruitfly and not find it significant. To end the parasitic existence of a cluster of cells is a "death" but not the death if anything important.

.... (Or is that the homeless again....)
victor809 Offline
#20 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 4:18 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Birth control fails occasionally gene. Not a huge percentage, but millions of people screwing means you have a very significant number of failed birth control babies.
Not to mention that a lot of those places that distribute birth control are planned Parenthood centers which are being shut down in some states....
And your putting it on the woman "opening the taco stand" is pretty questionable. What if the circumstances under which she "opened the taco stand" have changed? What if someone "broke into the taco stand"?
Gene363 Offline
#21 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 5:32 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
victor809 wrote:
Birth control fails occasionally gene. Not a huge percentage, but millions of people screwing means you have a very significant number of failed birth control babies.
Not to mention that a lot of those places that distribute birth control are planned Parenthood centers which are being shut down in some states....
And your putting it on the woman "opening the taco stand" is pretty questionable. What if the circumstances under which she "opened the taco stand" have changed? What if someone "broke into the taco stand"?


What, women cannot say, "no"?

For rape, I guess it's the Mother's call, but adoption is another answer.

As for the failure of birth control, it isn't that common, most failures are the failure to use it in the first place.

Again, the legal definition of murder isn't important to this discussion. To compare the killing a fetus to swatting a fly might sound cool, but it isn't. It's really a shame we all couldn't hold this discussion in a room with preserved fetuses, seeing one might change some minds.

I would like to point out I am of the option that abortion legalization is a male driven issue with so called feminists carrying the water. The entire idea is totally against the nurturing nature of the female mind. What better way of avoiding responsibility and getting laid than making abortions legal? It's expensive, emotionally devastating and there are much easier alternatives.
fiddler898 Offline
#22 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 5:46 PM EST
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
Perfect. A bunch of old fart cigar smokers telling women what to do with their bodies.

Abortion equals murder? Hah! When we see you out there standing against capital punishment, then maybe you’ll have some credibility.

Maybe.
victor809 Offline
#23 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
That's a lot of nonsense gene....

Circumstances change. Two people may think they are in a position to have a child one day and realize they aren't a month later... No reason to have an unwanted child simply because you're hung up on it.

And you assume I haven't seen a preserved fetus? You do realize I spent a lot of time around labs, right? I'm gonna bet you have no idea what one looks like at the time frame most abortions are performed. Hint... The anti abortion memes lie to you about it.

If you're going to use a legal term (murder) then it is important to the discussion. It is by definition a term which requires legal input. Calling abortion murder is no different than calling the death penalty murder. It is incorrect, and establishes a discussion as a forgone conclusion. To simplify it for you.... It isn't murder until it is illegal. By saying it is murder at the beginning of the discussion frames the discussion as if the act itself is already illegal, before you provide any rationale for that position.

I don't recall the failure rate of condoms or diaphragms or pills... But you have to remember we are a nation of over 300 million people. Approximately 110 million of these people are above 15 and under 40 ... Assuming these people have sex multiple times a month, that's a lot of instances of rolling the dice on that failure rate. You can expect a number of accidental pregnancies with this volume, no matter how good your birth control is.
victor809 Offline
#24 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:02 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
And gene...."nurturing nature of the female mind"??? Wtf is that nonsense? Let a damn woman decide if she wants to be nurturing... That whole paragraph is nonsense and not based on anything other than your stereotype of what women should be.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:10 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
does anyone belong to one of those nutty religions that consider using birth control a sin?
RMAN4443 Offline
#26 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:13 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
victor809 wrote:


If you're going to use a legal term (murder) then it is important to the discussion. It is by definition a term which requires legal input.Calling abortion murder is no different than calling the death penalty murder. It is incorrect, and establishes a discussion as a forgone conclusion. To simplify it for you.... It isn't murder until it is illegal. By saying it is murder at the beginning of the discussion frames the discussion as if the act itself is already illegal, before you provide any rationale for that position.




They still call the taking of a life KILLING though, correct???? Or is "Put to Death" the correct term???
I'm not for or against abortion, I just want to use the correct terminal(ology)....see what I did there?
RMAN4443 Offline
#27 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:17 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
frankj1 wrote:
does anyone belong to one of those nutty religions that consider using birth control a sin?

I'm Catholic(non practicing), and like I said I don't have any strong feelings for or against abortion
frankj1 Offline
#28 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:18 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
RMAN4443 wrote:
I'm Catholic(non practicing), and like I said I don't have any strong feelings for or against abortion

I was teasing...probably not a good idea!
victor809 Offline
#29 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:20 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Technically?
Terminating metabolic function.

Some people love their emotionally fraught terms. "Taking a life"... Well you have to establish it possessed a life... "Killing"... Well that implies living.

Don't get me wrong... I am ok with literally parents taking the life of their 14 year old kid if they want to abort it... Or if it kicks my chair in an airplane.... But I think those terms are way over used by the emotional anti abortion groups.
victor809 Offline
#30 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:28 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Life is a funny thing.
I mean... A fetus literally cannot live without the life support of a uterus. That puts a damper on the concept of it having some sort of autonomous "life". However on the other hand we do refer to tapeworms as alive... And they require a host to live. But then, tapeworms exhibit all other aspects of being alive... They reproduce...

When I was younger there was a lot of debate in the scientific community as to whether viruses were alive. They don't have the ability to reproduce without a host replication machinery...

The best you can really come to is that it's a sliding definition... As you get further along, a fetus moves from "potential life" towards "life"... As you move one way along that spectrum you get to the insanity of claiming life (for instance, sperm... While containing the potential for life, is obviously not something people appear to be concerned about).... And then as you move the other direction, towards where it is able to actually function metabolically on it's own, you might consider it alive.
RMAN4443 Offline
#31 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:43 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
victor809 wrote:
Technically?
Terminating metabolic function.

Some people love their emotionally fraught terms. "Taking a life"... Well you have to establish it possessed a life... "Killing"... Well that implies living.

Don't get me wrong... I am ok with literally parents taking the life of their 14 year old kid if they want to abort it... Or if it kicks my chair in an airplane.... But I think those terms are way over used by the emotional anti abortion groups.

Well,I'm not emotional anti abortion group anything, so that counts me out, but you also mentioned the death penalty....is that taking a life? or killing? How about the slaughter house or the fur coat factories ....is that killing or taking a life.....the animal rights groups say it's murder...
Personally I love a thick steak and some mashed taters, but like I said I want to use the correct terminology....


victor809 wrote:
As you move one way along that spectrum you get to the insanity of claiming life (for instance, sperm... While containing the potential for life, is obviously not something people appear to be concerned aboutt)....


Here are some people who disagree with your views on sperm....Anxious


https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ
victor809 Offline
#32 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 6:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Well...if one wants to put oneself in the same category as PETA activists screaming "meat is murder", then they are free to do so. I'll afford their opinions the same amount of respect I do those of PETA.....

Death penalty is most definitely "taking a life" because there is very little debate that an individual being executed has an autonomous life.... It still isn't murder though.
victor809 Offline
#33 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 7:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I'm gonna assume your video is from Monte python life of Brian.... But I'm not going through the effort of copy/pasting it
RMAN4443 Offline
#34 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 7:35 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
frankj1 wrote:
I was teasing...probably not a good idea!

no worries, like I said ,non-practicing......I never really practiced as much as I probably should have Anxious
engletl Offline
#35 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 8:52 PM EST
Joined: 12-26-2000
Posts: 26,493
Personally I am pro life

But I don't have any right to tell another boss to live their life.
frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 9:01 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
it's all about getting into da rhythm, baby!

as an outsider, I've always wondered how the various Christian religions deal with each other over birth control. I probably have known more Catholics than Jews in my life (Boston, duh) and that accounts for like a billion people being taught that birth control is bad...yet other followers of Christ say there should be no need for abortion because birth control is so easy to acquire.

It worked for me and my wife, but I have no right to expect others must live like us.

And as for the OP, Spey, I am staunchly Pro-Choice. However, I choose life, it is a choice after all, but I do not feel my choice should be the law of the land for women...nor should the choice of other fat cigar smoking pasty skinned old white guys be the forced choice for women and their bodies.
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 9:35 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
fiddler898 wrote:
Perfect. A bunch of old fart cigar smokers telling women what to do with their bodies.

Abortion equals murder? Hah! When we see you out there standing against capital punishment, then maybe you’ll have some credibility.

Maybe.


So, you agree then that baby you're so anxious to kill gets their day in court, including appeals.
Gene363 Offline
#38 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 9:43 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
victor809 wrote:
And gene...."nurturing nature of the female mind"??? Wtf is that nonsense? Let a damn woman decide if she wants to be nurturing... That whole paragraph is nonsense and not based on anything other than your stereotype of what women should be.


Ask a woman that has had an abortion how she feels about it five or ten or fifty years later and you might understand.
frankj1 Offline
#39 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Gene363 wrote:
Ask a woman that has had an abortion how she feels about it five or ten or fifty years later and you might understand.

just how many of these women are in your circle of friends?!!!
Man, I'm Pro Choice and don't know very many.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#40 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 9:57 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
does anyone belong to one of those nutty religions that consider using birth control a sin?

I hate condoms... does that count?
frankj1 Offline
#41 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:03 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I hate condoms... does that count?

I hate 'em too, so I took the cure. Well, there is a story but not gonna get told here.

So are seed spillers sinners or just criminals? It's wicked important cuz of laws and stuff.
frankj1 Offline
#42 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:04 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Hi Joel.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#43 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:07 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
I hate 'em too, so I took the cure. Well, there is a story but not gonna get told here.

So are seed spillers sinners or just criminals? It's wicked important cuz of laws and stuff.

your half of the book had a litte something to say about it... but personally I think it had more to do with not fulfilling duties and such than it did "seed spilling"... gross...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#44 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:08 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
Hi Joel.

hola frank...
frankj1 Offline
#45 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:18 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
going to bed, I'm on "E".
Love ya brother.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#46 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:21 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
back at ya...
victor809 Offline
#47 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:28 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Yeah I'm gonna bet that the sample size of women willing to tell gene that they had an abortion in the past is pretty small. The chances of him having a friend who is both pleased and vocal about an abortion are about the same as me having a friend who's a vocal Evangelical.
Gene363 Offline
#48 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:35 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
frankj1 wrote:
just how many of these women are in your circle of friends?!!!
Man, I'm Pro Choice and don't know very many.


More than one, and it''s unlikely they will casually reveal this information.
Gene363 Offline
#49 Posted: Mon, Oct 8 2018, 10:37 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
victor809 wrote:
Yeah I'm gonna bet that the sample size of women willing to tell gene that they had an abortion in the past is pretty small. The chances of him having a friend who is both pleased and vocal about an abortion are about the same as me having a friend who's a vocal Evangelical.


Well, you'd be wrong, again. So what is your count?
bgz Offline
#50 Posted: Tue, Oct 9 2018, 12:20 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
A fetus is pretty much equivalent to a tumor or parasite until it's brain sufficiently develops.

I have no problem with women killing it with fire if they want to.

As far as how they feel later in life about the decision, it was their decision, I had nothing to do with that sh*t (and I really shouldn't have anything to do with that).

Also, because of medical breakthroughs and the things we know about the state of little George in the womb, the only reasoning anyone can give for not allowing abortions these days are religious in nature.

If it wasn't for the religious stuff, I might have been a registered Republican... as it sits, I'm just some guy without a political party to call his own, and frankly, I'm ok with that...

Gives me a reason to read the voter guide.
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