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The existence of God.
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victor809 Offline
#151 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:19 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Bgz... You actually have to go back further. A single cell bacteria is life. One doesn't need to be macroscopic to be alive, and one certainly doesn't need to be a multicellular organism ...
(Note that isn't consciousness... Just fulfilling the minimum requirements of "life"). Also, my favorite idea is the grey area around viruses, which may or may not be considered life.

But, bottom line, life does not need to be complex or multicellular.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#152 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:20 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
But it is... And that didn't happen from chaos...
victor809 Offline
#153 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:25 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Opel....that's why I said "reasonably inhospitable.
Your gut bacteria likely wouldn't need an oxygen rich atmosphere (working from memory again, but I believe they are anaerobic bacteria)... They would need some atmosphere to maintain pressure across the cell membranes, but wouldn't need anything close to what we need. Given our crap would have a variety of species of bacteria with a couple different metabolic pathways, there's a chance one would be able to convert to whatever is necessary in the existing environment. Definitely would need to be a planet that has a carbon source (but that doesn't need to be the carbon we recognize as food).... Some sort of atmosphere... But not necessarily one we could survive in at all....

We are always surprised at where we are able to find bacteria growing... Granted, that's after they evolve to fill whatever strange niche they are in. But if they have sufficient food (poop) to process, and aren't killed instantly, they could potentially survive.
dstieger Offline
#154 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:
But it is... And that didn't happen from chaos...

Yes it did.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#155 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:30 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
Yes it did.

It didn't... It's been proven to be mathematically impossible...
victor809 Offline
#156 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
.... You're gonna have to link that "math"
victor809 Offline
#157 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:35 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Because last thing you said was mathematically impossible had mathematical proofs showing it was possible.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#158 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:39 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Sorry to pull this again, but Google it Victor... You'll find as many sites to agree with you as I will that agree with me... Lots of non Christian non religious scholars have calculated the probability of life forming by chance... The odds are astronomical... But if you believe that anything that can possibly happen will definitely happen given enough time, regardless of odds, the rational discussion is kinda out of the question...
dstieger Offline
#159 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
The bit about tornados building 747s was sort of amusing...clever, even....but not the least bit relevant to anything....which is how I read your claim about 'chaos'....just because current state seems complicated, doesn't mean a leap of explanation to 'god'
bgz Offline
#160 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:40 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Why would there be a decent chance? Everything we know from a scientific point of view would indicate that nothing would survive in the atmospheres of the planet's we are aware of...


We don't know that. Where did you get that information?

Hydrogen and Oxygen are 2 of the most abundant elements in the universe.

There's places in our solar system where life might be thriving...

Edit:

Oops, got side tracked when posting... skipped a few messages.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#161 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:41 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
The bit about tornados building 747s was sort of amusing...clever, even....but not the least bit relevant to anything....which is how I read your claim about 'chaos'....just because current state seems complicated, doesn't mean a leap of explanation to 'god'

That was actually from a professor at Oxford... You should call him and explain how much smarter you are than him...
dstieger Offline
#162 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:41 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Sorry to pull this again, but Google it Victor... You'll find as many sites to agree with you as I will that agree with me... Lots of non Christian non religious scholars have calculated the probability of life forming by chance... The odds are astronomical... But if you believe that anything that can possibly happen will definitely happen given enough time, regardless of odds, the rational discussion is kinda out of the question...


Assuming a god vs alternative seems a lot less rational to me
opelmanta1900 Offline
#163 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:42 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
We don't know that. Where did you get that information?

Hydrogen and Oxygen are 2 of the most abundant elements in the universe.

There's places in our solar system where life might be thriving...

Sure.... According to your belief system, literally anything is possible... But science is about observation...
dstieger Offline
#164 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:42 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:
That was actually from a professor at Oxford... You should call him and explain how much smarter you are than him...

What's his number?
bgz Offline
#165 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:43 AM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
victor809 wrote:
Bgz... You actually have to go back further. A single cell bacteria is life. One doesn't need to be macroscopic to be alive, and one certainly doesn't need to be a multicellular organism ...
(Note that isn't consciousness... Just fulfilling the minimum requirements of "life"). Also, my favorite idea is the grey area around viruses, which may or may not be considered life.

But, bottom line, life does not need to be complex or multicellular.


Yes, I know this... If you re-read what I wrote, I believe I said as much. I was tiptoeing around another issue we discuss frequently ;)

Edit:

I just re-read what I wrote... you're right, I wrote it the way you said... not the message I was trying to convey.
victor809 Offline
#166 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Oxford or not... It's a cute and humorous statement, but an oversimplification. A tornado is not "chaos" (it's actually ordered)... And a 747 isn't what chaos needs to create. It just needs to create the simplest form of replicating life. (To use your analogy, a wing... Which one could argue is a slightly curved piece of metal flying in a tornado).
victor809 Offline
#167 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Opel ... If the existing knowledge of the universe and how it works were to truly indicate that we could not create the life that we have by chance. Why does that mean we move to believing in a god?

Couldn't the problem be solved without resorting to a good?

Maybe next decade we discover evidence and cause of a huge spike of energy in the universe billions of years ago... Maybe we discover that the law of entropy has a decay constant and billions of years ago it worked the opposite way.
(No... I don't believe any of the above are true, they are substitutions for smarter discoveries which may happen in the future)
The point is, if we're looking at something and saying"that just doesn't seem to be working right or make sense... There must be something else" that doesn't mean god. That just means something we still need to discover.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#168 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:49 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
So life to you is the complexity of a bent piece of metal?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#169 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:51 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Or maybe we discover our method of dating the earth is horrifically inaccurate...
RMAN4443 Offline
#170 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 11:51 AM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
victor809 wrote:
Sigh... We try to have intellectual conversations here and end up with rooster s3m3n....

Sorry Victor....now what were you saying about when the four unicorn-men of the victopocalypse arrive the snarkiest of us will be rewarded with 100 ugly virgins. The rest of us will be fed to the unicorns.
I'm not sure I have the intellect to grasp the concept,but it sounds like it would make for an interesting movie plot...Think
bgz Offline
#171 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:01 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
bgz wrote:
Yes, I know this... If you re-read what I wrote, I believe I said as much. I was tiptoeing around another issue we discuss frequently ;)

Edit:

I just re-read what I wrote... you're right, I wrote it the way you said... not the message I was trying to convey.


Don't really like to quote myself... but I did say single celled organisms were alive, my mistake was making the claim that the non-developed multi-cellular organism isn't considered alive. It would have been correct to say not conscious as victor stated.
victor809 Offline
#172 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:05 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
All good bgz. It's a forum, half of us are typing on phones.

I reread some of my stuff and think goddammit that's a circuitous explanation... Hard to keep track of sentences etc when you're on a handheld
bgz Offline
#173 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:09 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I don't have that excuse, I just had a brain fart.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#174 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:09 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
Don't really like to quote myself... but I did say single celled organisms were alive, my mistake was making the claim that the non-developed multi-cellular organism isn't considered alive. It would have been correct to say not conscious as victor stated.

So is cros dead or not conscious?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#175 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
I don't have that excuse, I just had a brain fart.

Do those make your breathe smell?
bgz Offline
#176 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Quote:
So is cros dead or not conscious?


I didn't know those were mutually exclusive.
bgz Offline
#177 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:13 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Do those make your breathe smell?


No, but if it happens at an inopportune time, then it can poison the surrounding brains of the logically challenged.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#178 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
I didn't know those were mutually exclusive.



Well I guess not... But if you referred to someone as not conscious when they were really dead, you're kinda giving false hope I think... I wouldn't go back to that doctor...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#179 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:15 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
No, but if it happens at an inopportune time, then it can poison the surrounding brains of the logically challenged.

If it makes you feel any better, no one is reading these posts...
RMAN4443 Offline
#180 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Do those make your breathe smell?

No, but don't they make your eyes brown??
opelmanta1900 Offline
#181 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:18 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
And if your brain is farting wouldn't that make you a sh*thead?
bgz Offline
#182 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:19 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
opelmanta1900 wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, no one is reading these posts...


So I've noticed.
bgz Offline
#183 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
opelmanta1900 wrote:
And if your brain is farting wouldn't that make you a sh*thead?


I don't know if I can come to that conclusion from a single instance. Reading your posts however leads me to believe you might be a candidate for further study on the subject.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#184 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:22 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
That is one of the terrible things about forum discussions that try to get serious... By the time you address one post, 7 more have popped up... So you either spend all your time trying to respond to posts that will eventually be days old by the time you get to them, or you give up and start trolling and sending Victor pictures of black ducks...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#185 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:23 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
bgz wrote:
I don't know if I can come to that conclusion from a single instance. Reading your posts however leads me to believe you might be a candidate for further study on the subject.

Take a breathe Ben...
bgz Offline
#186 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 12:23 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
opelmanta1900 wrote:
That is one of the terrible things about forum discussions that try to get serious... By the time you address one post, 7 more have popped up... So you either spend all your time trying to respond to posts that will eventually be days old by the time you get to them, or you give up and start trolling and sending Victor pictures of black ducks...


Everyone copes in their own way man... what ever makes you feel better.
victor809 Offline
#187 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Technically a brain fart makes you a butthead not a sh$$t head.

Just keeping things accurate.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#188 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 2:52 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Wouldn't that make you a poop throat?
victor809 Offline
#189 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 3:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Only if you vomit.
dstieger Offline
#190 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 3:21 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
What happens if we skip over the 'creation part'? How 'vital' is that part of belief to the whole?
Because as I (and others?) sort of suggested, maybe we can't really know the details of 'creation'...so, if for the sake of argument, I cede the intelligent design so as to get to, perhaps a more important argument: can you argue ongoing existence of a god (or gods), except through the surrender of 'blind faith'?
Ewok126 Offline
#191 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 3:26 PM EST
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
Blind faith is the only way I know.
dstieger Offline
#192 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Ewok126 wrote:
Blind faith is the only way I know.

Ok if I can't find my way home...otherwise, I will choose a path that's clear... I will choose free will
Ewok126 Offline
#193 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 3:48 PM EST
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Posts: 4,356
dstieger wrote:
Ok if I can't find my way home...otherwise, I will choose a path that's clear... I will choose free will



Is it not through free will that we chose to have blind faith? Go easy on me my brain is not wanting to cooperate today.
Speyside Offline
#194 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Dave, for conversation sake. Say I am agnostic and one day I decide there is no god. Again say I am agnostic and one day decide God exists. Both are exercises in free will. It makes me uncomfortable that anyone would consider either a loss of free will. Please note that organized religion is an entirely different conversation.
dstieger Offline
#195 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Maybe the way I assume others think of god is off. But, to me, if someone believes in an entity that independently affects them or others, like via prayer, for example....to me that represents a surrender incongruous with free will
opelmanta1900 Offline
#196 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:26 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
If a drunk driver hits you with his car, is that a surrender of your free will?
bgz Offline
#197 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:28 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
On another note, I think that if there is a god in the universe, then there has to be multiple gods in the universe because the universe just doesn't spawn one of something.

Further, if a god created this universe and exists outside of it, then there must be other gods creating other universes as well.

So I would be inclined to believe that a polytheistic reality would be more probable than monotheistic one.

Therefore in my mind, polytheism > monotheism.

Hope to see you guys at the big herf in Valhalla!
victor809 Offline
#198 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
An interesting point...
Logically if one can spontaneously exist, then so can others.... Huh....

What if the first one stops all others from being created? Sort of how human existence essentially stunts any other species from developing intelligence? The first god that sprung into existence impacted time/space in such a way that no other could be created?

What if God aborts other Gods before they're born???!!!
victor809 Offline
#199 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:34 PM EST
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Posts: 23,866
#theyseemetrolling
bgz Offline
#200 Posted: Wed, Oct 17 2018, 4:40 PM EST
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Posts: 13,023
There it is folks... victor says if God exists, then it's a liberal.
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