America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 5 years ago by tailgater. 47 replies replies.
The real attack on our southern border.
Jump to Bottom | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Speyside Offline
#1 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 10:14 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
This is from FOX.

Migrants traveling to US sue Trump, government; claim violation of constitutional rights.

A dozen migrants traveling by foot from
Honduras to the U.S. to seek asylum filed a class-action lawsuit Thursday against President Trump, the Department of Homeland Security and others, claiming a violation of their due process under the Fifth Amendment.

The Fifth Amendment states that, "no person… shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

There is more to the article but this is the gist of it.

This is an attempt at forcing an open border. What due process is being denied by stopping illegal aliens at our border. There is a legal process they can follow to enter our country.

Who started and is paying for this lawsuit?
Speyside Offline
#2 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 10:30 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Z, I know you posted this in another thread, but I thought it was important enough to repeat with some detail.
Gene363 Offline
#3 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 10:50 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,796
We need the SCOTUS to decide The Constitution is for US citizens, it does not include an umbrella that covers non citizens, in particular non citizen, wannabe illegal immigrants that are not even on US soil.

No immigrants filed a law suit, some US hating lawyer found some illegal immigrant wannabes and filed the lawsuit.
Krazeehorse Offline
#4 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 12:40 PM EST
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Innovative. They are getting on the teat before they even come in. I assume they aren't paying their own legal fees.
frankj1 Offline
#5 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 1:56 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Gene363 wrote:
We need the SCOTUS to decide The Constitution is for US citizens, it does not include an umbrella that covers non citizens, in particular non citizen, wannabe illegal immigrants that are not even on US soil.

No immigrants filed a law suit, some US hating lawyer found some illegal immigrant wannabes and filed the lawsuit.

you sure you want the folks who decided that corporations are people with rights on this case too?
SteveS Offline
#6 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 2:02 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Speyside wrote:
... Migrants traveling to US sue Trump, government; claim violation of constitutional rights.


they cannot sue ... they have no standing ... so, your question about who's paying should also ask who's filing this suit and who stands to benefit ...


Buckwheat Offline
#7 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 2:17 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
I found this interesting tidbit on a constitutional law forum:

"All people while in the USA regardless of citizenship enjoy the same rights and protections under the US Constitution that a citizen does save the right to vote and varying 2nd Amendment rights based on immigration status and individual circumstances.

A non-citizen has the same right to due process, protections against unlawful search and seizure, right to trial by jury, right to free speech and so that a US citizen or permanent resident enjoys. There may be specific regulatory restrictions that may limit or restrict some of these rights compared to US citizens (i.e. ability to donate to political campaigns) but these are not removal of the rights as a whole."

I believe some of you belong to the The Native American Party (i.e. Know Nothing Party). fog
tailgater Offline
#8 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 3:47 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Buckwheat wrote:
I found this interesting tidbit on a constitutional law forum:

"All people while in the USA regardless of citizenship enjoy the same rights and protections under the US Constitution that a citizen does save the right to vote and varying 2nd Amendment rights based on immigration status and individual circumstances.

A non-citizen has the same right to due process, protections against unlawful search and seizure, right to trial by jury, right to free speech and so that a US citizen or permanent resident enjoys. There may be specific regulatory restrictions that may limit or restrict some of these rights compared to US citizens (i.e. ability to donate to political campaigns) but these are not removal of the rights as a whole."

I believe some of you belong to the The Native American Party (i.e. Know Nothing Party). fog


This is once again too vague.

Non-citizens can be here legally.

A person here legally should be afforded the basic rights that citizens have.

But if someone is here illegally, that right should be denied while simultaneously tossing them over the proverbial wall without a net.

Maim enough of them and the rest will take the hint.
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 4:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Ram has a bat... ram27bat
Speyside Offline
#10 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I think a point is being missed here. People outside of the United States are sueing our government over rights they would have if they were standing on United States soil. They ate sueing for their right to due process. What due process? They are not in the United States.

They have no inherent right to illegally walk across our border. If they tried to immigrant legally they would receive due process. I have been laughing at people here expressing open border concerns. My bad, this appears to be a legal attempt to force open borders. Perhaps I am wrong, but someone is paying for this. I don't think it will get anywhere, but perhaps the intent is to make Republicans look bad. Shame on whoever is doing this.
deadeyedick Offline
#11 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 7:06 PM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,068
There are literally scores of organizations in the US who advocate in efforts for illegals to gain whatever rights and privileges they can glean from the US legal system. They clog our courts with this kind of suit. Most are denied but it costs millions each year and ties up our immigration courts.

If you lived in one of our southern border states you would see this all the time. Many law firms specialize in this exclusively.
Gene363 Offline
#12 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 10:50 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,796
frankj1 wrote:
you sure you want the folks who decided that corporations are people with rights on this case too?


Good point, but anything short of a Constitutional Amendment will end up there anyway.
frankj1 Offline
#13 Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2018, 11:50 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Gene363 wrote:
Good point, but anything short of a Constitutional Amendment will end up there anyway.

for sure.
tailgater Offline
#14 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:14 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Fock all this.

Time to do the only thing that will work: a virtual wall.

No more aid to people here illegally. I mean zero. They want shelter? Put them in jail until we toss them into the ocean.
Make it a felony to hire an illegal. Tack on a $20,000 fine. How many small business owners would risk it?
Keep the illegals out of our schools. Our hospitals.

And when we make the laws to apply equally to all illegals, including those already here for decades, then which group will be the most opposed to the newcomers in that caravan?

Time for Uncle Sam to stop being the migrant sugar daddy.

Get in line.
Apply for entry.
Follow the rules.
Or be denied for LIFE.
SteveS Offline
#15 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 2:02 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
tailgater wrote:
Fock all this.
Time for Uncle Sam to stop being the migrant sugar daddy.


well, yeah ... makes too much sense ... hard to make that happen when the presumptive new (old) Speaker of the House has publically stated that she's willing to go to the border and personally welcome them with open arms ...

and she's not alone ... there're any number of libtard goofballs that kiss the asses of illegal aliens ... including the mayor of Oakland who counts illegals as part of her constituency ...
ZRX1200 Online
#16 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 2:44 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,577
Open Society spread a lot of butter on Democrat bread.
Speyside Offline
#17 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tail, the fine is a good idea, but I would go farther than that. Massive fines such as Asphlund recieved, 96 million, and federal jail time. This would stop the game, in my opinion, and is all within the law.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 4:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tail wrote: Make it a felony to hire an illegal. Tack on a $20,000 fine. How many small business owners would risk it?

asylum is asylum, but job opportunities are the bigger draw. I say go even stronger...and it isn't just small business.
at the risk of damaging our friendship, I agree with Joe.

HA!
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 7:08 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
What if you hire an illegal to just do some concrete work around da house..?? Huh
frankj1 Offline
#20 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 7:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
DrafterX wrote:
What if you hire an illegal to just do some concrete work around da house..?? Huh

I thought we discussed this...he's a volunteer and you decide to tip him for his help.
DrafterX Offline
#21 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 7:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Cool... ThumpUp
frankj1 Offline
#22 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 7:43 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
I'm not your average lib, ya know?
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 8:14 PM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,251
[quote=SteveS][h]... hard to make that happen when the presumptive new (old) Speaker of the House has publicly stated that she's willing to go to the border and personally welcome them with open arms ...

If the Dems win the House, I hope they get rid of her. She is a political liability...
tailgater Offline
#24 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 8:21 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
tail wrote: Make it a felony to hire an illegal. Tack on a $20,000 fine. How many small business owners would risk it?

asylum is asylum, but job opportunities are the bigger draw. I say go even stronger...and it isn't just small business.
at the risk of damaging our friendship, I agree with Joe.

HA!


Asylum from WHAT?

There is no asylum.
Except as a key to the castle.

It's embarrassing to hear people claim this is really about asylum, when everyone KNOWS it's about jobs and social programs.


borndead1 Offline
#25 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 9:26 PM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,215
It should be easy to become a US citizen. It should be easy to gain asylum. It should be easy to get a work permit. It is not easy to do any of those things. It is expensive and time consuming. So people take a calculated risk and just try to get into the US. Our legislators could end all of this nonsense with some simple legislation. But they won't do it, because they would rather use immigration to manipulate and fire up their core bases every election year.
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 9:47 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
Asylum from WHAT?

There is no asylum.
Except as a key to the castle.

It's embarrassing to hear people claim this is really about asylum, when everyone KNOWS it's about jobs and social programs.



neither of us know who or how many are actually about asylum...well maybe you know that none are?
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:19 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
borndead1 wrote:
It should be easy to become a US citizen. It should be easy to gain asylum. It should be easy to get a work permit. It is not easy to do any of those things. It is expensive and time consuming. So people take a calculated risk and just try to get into the US. Our legislators could end all of this nonsense with some simple legislation. But they won't do it, because they would rather use immigration to manipulate and fire up their core bases every election year.



In other words, ' Open Borders' right..?? Not talking
Speyside Offline
#28 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:20 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
A lot of Jews needed asylum from Germany. A lot of Syrians needed asylum from Turkey. A lot of Bosnians needed asylum from Serbia. A lot of Tutsi needed asylum from Rwanda.

Certainly there are Hondurans and Guatemalas that need asylum.
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:25 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Then they should apply at their local embassy... Mellow
tailgater Offline
#30 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:38 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
neither of us know who or how many are actually about asylum...well maybe you know that none are?



So we've got thousands heading to our border.
CNN tells us it's about asylum.
Logic tells us it's about the other things.

Honestly. If it were true asylum, wouldn't they end their trek in Mexico?

I can't feel badly about wanting people to follow our laws. That starts with entry.
It's a slap in the face to those that do it by legal means.

You know I'm not telling you that I "know none are".
That's a disingenuous comment.
At best.

If there is a mass asylum, don't you think it's strange that nobody has told us the details?

We knew more about the Cuban boat people then we do a caravan that has reporters following their path.
Think about that for a moment.

I get it.
They want America's promise of jobs and shelter and a bright future.
Storming the border and lying about asylum is not how it's supposed to work.
The people here pushing that fiction should be ashamed.
Speyside Offline
#31 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:39 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
That wasn't my point. My point is don't deny there are those in the caravan that truely need asylum.
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:42 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
It's well known Democrats are soft on illegals.. so if they get in and given voting rights they're gonna vote Democrat.. it's so obvious it's not funny.. giving 16 yr olds the right to vote in DC.. divide California into 3 states to flood Congress with Reps and Congressmen.. it's obvious what the plan is.. Mellow
tailgater Offline
#33 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Lest we forget:

Asylum: the protection granted by a nation to someone who has left their native country as a political refugee.
tailgater Offline
#34 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:49 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
A lot of Jews needed asylum from Germany. A lot of Syrians needed asylum from Turkey. A lot of Bosnians needed asylum from Serbia. A lot of Tutsi needed asylum from Rwanda.

Certainly there are Hondurans and Guatemalas that need asylum.


Enlighten us.
You say "certainly", so you must be sure.
Tell us of the political strife that has led to a mass asylum. Thousands of people who won't demand asylum from Mexico, but who are hell bent set on getting to America.
DrafterX Offline
#35 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 10:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
There's no Chik-filas in Mexico... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#36 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 11:02 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Poor Mexicans...
DrafterX Offline
#37 Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2018, 11:07 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Ya... Poor Mexicans... Sad
RMAN4443 Offline
#38 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 2:34 AM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
I could really go for a Tutsi Roll right about now....Anxious
dstieger Offline
#39 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 8:29 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Put this in the religion of peace thread because tail was defining asylum inaccurately there, too. Unfortunately, there's a lot of room for interpretation in the law




U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part I › § 1158
8 U.S. Code § 1158 - Asylum
US Code
Notes


(B) Burden of proof
(i) In general
The burden of proof is on the applicant to establish that the applicant is a refugee, within the meaning of section 1101(a)(42)(A) of this title. To establish that the applicant is a refugee within the meaning of such section, the applicant must establish that race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion was or will be at least one central reason for persecuting the applicant.
Speyside Offline
#40 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 10:06 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tail, I am just as certain there are people in that caravan that are seeking asylum due to persecution as you are sure there are not people in that group seeking asylum due to persecution.

There is no need for me to point out political strife in their homeland as there are multiple types of persecution under the law that people can seek asylum due to. Even if someone is offered asylum by Mexico they can still seek asylum in the United States.

All of that being said, these people should be denied entrance into the United States. They need to legally seek asylum. We have a border and it is illegal for an alien to cross it without following our laws.
tailgater Offline
#41 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 11:44 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
dstieger wrote:
Put this in the religion of peace thread because tail was defining asylum inaccurately there, too. Unfortunately, there's a lot of room for interpretation in the law




U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part I › § 1158
8 U.S. Code § 1158 - Asylum
US Code
Notes


(B) Burden of proof
(i) In general
The burden of proof is on the applicant to establish that the applicant is a refugee, within the meaning of section 1101(a)(42)(A) of this title. To establish that the applicant is a refugee within the meaning of such section, the applicant must establish that race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion was or will be at least one central reason for persecuting the applicant.


You can claim my definition was incomplete, but it's not inaccurate. In fact, mine is the primary definition of the term.

I gotta ask: Do you think the caravan is mostly people seeking true asylum from persecution, or mostly people seeking entry into America for other more obvious reasons?
tailgater Offline
#42 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
Tail, I am just as certain there are people in that caravan that are seeking asylum due to persecution as you are sure there are not people in that group seeking asylum due to persecution.

There is no need for me to point out political strife in their homeland as there are multiple types of persecution under the law that people can seek asylum due to. Even if someone is offered asylum by Mexico they can still seek asylum in the United States.

All of that being said, these people should be denied entrance into the United States. They need to legally seek asylum. We have a border and it is illegal for an alien to cross it without following our laws.


None of the news is about "some" of the migrants seeking asylum.

This is a media driven battle cry.

I agree there are probably some truly seeking asylum, although it's more than a bit odd that they didn't agree to asylum in Mexico. They made it out of Honduras. They're safe. But they'd rather trek another 2000 miles to the border of America where they're being told a military road block is awaiting them.

Yeah, that makes sense.
Speyside Offline
#43 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 4:13 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Why do you think their decisions have to make sense? My assumption is that these people are uneducated. They are from a third world country. They seem to be from the bottom of the barrel when it comes to money/assets. Basically they have the clothes on their back. They make a decision that they will try to reach the United States. Their decision overrides common sense.

Agin, they need to be stopped at the border and turned around. Also, those who have an honest claim for asylum are probably a small portion of the caravan.
RMAN4443 Offline
#44 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 4:22 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
I blame Taco Bell....Run For the Border...Not talking
frankj1 Offline
#45 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 5:05 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
by the time the dwindling crowd gets to the border (the estimates are about 150 will do so) there will be like 100 enlisted for each one.
I'm feeling safe from the invasion.

I haven't made any statements about asylum regarding this group (still weeks away). I've just adopted the position of most high ranking military people and local officials and residents of towns that will be affected first who have been quoted on their thoughts about Trump's military decision.

Clearly this has been turned into a mid term election circus and many here have taken the bait.

Nothing I said nor believe should be taken as open borders or tolerating illegal entry. But I have not been fooled by tweets.
Ewok126 Offline
#46 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 5:33 PM EST
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
All politics and BS aside, If 25 strangers show up at my door with out following protocol, Tell me I am coming into your home whither I like it or not. Yeah a bunch of folks will end up looking at the wrong end of a gun and a huge pre-dug hole in the back yard to put the bodies in. Merica is no different. Its My home! These people are not following protocol, just showing up, Demanding to come in. I dont give 2 chits why or what for. MF better call ahead and fill me in so I can decide one, if I am willing to help, and two if they are welcome in my house. But, to just show up at my door demanding lmaoooo. That is quick way to end all their troubles and not in the way they expecting. Just My OP on the forums but its law in my house.
tailgater Offline
#47 Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018, 5:58 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
Why do you think their decisions have to make sense? My assumption is that these people are uneducated. They are from a third world country. They seem to be from the bottom of the barrel when it comes to money/assets. Basically they have the clothes on their back. They make a decision that they will try to reach the United States. Their decision overrides common sense.

Agin, they need to be stopped at the border and turned around. Also, those who have an honest claim for asylum are probably a small portion of the caravan.


Common sense has little to do with education.
That's why it's "common".

But if what you say is true, then it's not about asylum at all.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Back to Top