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Mass Shooting in California...
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rfenst Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 6:11 AM EST
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,261
Sadness. May they rest in peace.
Mr. Jones Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 9:10 AM EST
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
Just read article.

Matt Wennerstorm (20?something) is a hero...
He grabbed 5? People and pushed them under a pool table....WOOD AND SLATE saved their lives...

When the shooter ran out of ammo and was changing his magazine, Matt got up and threw barstools through the window , then he proceeded to help 25-35 people escape thru that broken window....

I call that quick positive reactions...he deserves a medal.
Buckwheat Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 9:25 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Mr. Jones wrote:
Just read article.

Matt Wennerstorm (20?something) is a hero...
He grabbed 5? People and pushed them under a pool table....WOOD AND SLATE saved their lives...

When the shooter ran out of ammo and was changing his magazine, Matt got up and threw barstools through the window , then he proceeded to help 25-35 people escape thru that broken window....

I call that quick positive reactions...he deserves a medal.


+1,000,000
opelmanta1900 Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 9:40 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Another incel? We gotta start slaughtering these losers...
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 11:33 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
La Times:
1120PM, guy walked in and started shooting
1122, first cops arrive -
1126, first cops enter, get shot, one dies
'about 15 minutes later' more cops enter (after shooting over)

Total tragedy.....Wennerstorm sounds like a true hero...as are those first two cops. The cop killed was Sheriff’s Sgt. Ron Helus....,a 29-year veteran of the department, who was planning to retire next year,

Terribly sad. I'm interested to know what was going on with the police from 1126 to 1140-something....clearly there's an ocean of details still not in the news, but seems a long gap after the initial fast response time
opelmanta1900 Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 11:46 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Ian Long, 28, highly decorated ex-marine, mass murderer...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 11:51 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Its being said that some who survived the bar shooting were also survivors of the las Vegas shooting...
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
Jesus......
Abrignac Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:20 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,264
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Its being said that some who survived the bar shooting were also survivors of the las Vegas shooting...


Probably should have bought a lottery ticket instead. Sarcasm

I don’t think it’s any secret that we have entered an age where one must be ever vigilant of one’s surroundings. Unfortunately, the shooter was in violation of gun laws so I seriously doubt the inevitable call for more legislation will do anything to make anyone safer. But, we’ll hear the calls nonetheless.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:25 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I actually think events like this are making it harder and harder to pin the problem on firearms... Minds are fragile and breaking one is easier now than ever...
Speyside Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:27 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I hate that we are becoming inured to this.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:41 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I think an important question that has to be answered by society before anything changes is why shouldn't someone like Ian Long do something like this, if that's indeed what Ian Long wants to do?
dstieger Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
It might be ok?
dstieger Offline
#14 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Maybe you could rephrase your question... I might be confused
opelmanta1900 Offline
#15 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:47 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
It might be ok?

Tell me why it isn't... Better yet, pretend like you could talk to Ian Long right before he started shooting and explain to him why he shouldn't...
dstieger Offline
#16 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 3:56 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Not sure I can track with you....I don't think I'd try to reason with Long.....Can't really get my mind around why such a conversation should be necessary -- I am good with what I think is conventional thinking that killing for other than a couple specific reasons, such as self-defense, soldiering, and maybe execution of convicted death penalty crime criminals...that killing outside those limitations is simply wrong and someone that doesn't agree isn't compatible with society and could/should probably be treated immediately and/or locked up.

Not sure that 'killing isn't a good idea' needs to be explained....there are certain norms that pretty much need to be accepted without question to live with other people....I think that's one of them....I try not to be the one to answer a question with a question, but I'd be willing to turn it around and have you, or Long or someone else explain why it'd be ok
opelmanta1900 Offline
#17 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:01 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
So killing is wrong because you said so? Because society says so? Because why?
DrafterX Offline
#18 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:10 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
God said it was bad... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#19 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:11 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,538
Or was it the singing bush... Think
opelmanta1900 Offline
#20 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:13 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I think you're confusing 2 movies... The latter much better than the former... But I never was a Charlton Heston fan...
dstieger Offline
#21 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:17 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I would contend that the people Long shot had reasonable expectation, a right, even, to not be shot by Long - I think that perhaps if you were to contend that societal, or communal living is not a desired state -- and that any other person's rights are always subordinate to your own, you might conclude that killing is ok.....so I guess 'because society says so' is a pretty good answer....

If you reject society and its norms, than withdrawal from it are your only option other than treatment/institutionalization -- if society rejects killing as ok; then you can't continue to be a member of it and go around killing
opelmanta1900 Offline
#22 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:20 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
So killing isn't universally bad, only if society says so? So when German society was cool with getting rid of the Jews, no foul?

You said you believe those shot had a right not to be shot? A right given by who?
dstieger Offline
#23 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 4:26 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:
So killing isn't universally bad, only if society says so? So when German society was cool with getting rid of the Jews, no foul?

You said you believe those shot had a right not to be shot? A right given by who?


Not sure that all of society (or societies) were on board with the whole holocaust thing; I'm not even very sure that German society was on board with it

I'm not ethicist....nor a moralist, for that matter -- and I'm ok with certain unalienable rights

Are you channeling Victor, or do you have a point?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#24 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 5:06 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
My point is simply that you apparently believe in right and wrong... Somebody or something determines that...

If society determines it, then what is right and wrong changes based on the consensus... We have to be willing to accept the determinations of any society as being equally valid to our own... So if the American consensus at one point was that blacks were worth considerably less than whites, that was right... Might not be right now, but it was right then...

If morality - right and wrong - are determined by the individual, then we have to be willing to accept others determinations as being equally valid as our own... Stephen paddock and Ian Long included...

If right and wrong are determined by the God who created us, then that doesn't change with our personal views, and the only determinations that are valid are those of that creator... What he says is right, and when we deviate from it we are wrong...
dstieger Offline
#25 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 5:27 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
So, you're arguing that morality is god-dependent....and Long was fine, except maybe he didn't believe in god hard enough?

Certainly society norms, mores, values change over time; views on morality right along with them

So this was a thinly veiled attempt to challenge non-believers to cede moral high ground
..
I think we already have a thread for you to try that
opelmanta1900 Offline
#26 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 5:29 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Nice deflection...
frankj1 Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 6:58 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
Abrignac wrote:
Probably should have bought a lottery ticket instead. Sarcasm

I don’t think it’s any secret that we have entered an age where one must be ever vigilant of one’s surroundings. Unfortunately, the shooter was in violation of gun laws so I seriously doubt the inevitable call for more legislation will do anything to make anyone safer. But, we’ll hear the calls nonetheless.

thought I heard (could be wrong) that the guns were purchased legally because he was not involuntarily committed for treatment (if and when he ever was hospitalized) but that he added features illegal in Cali to be able to shoot multiple rounds.

Guns legal though.
Speyside Offline
#28 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 10:45 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Opel, who determines what God has decided is right and wrong? During the Spanish inquisition 2,000 people were burned at the stake. During the crusades about 1.7 million people were killed. The catholic church gave moral legitimacy to the Nazis and Hitler soon after Hitler's rise to power by signing the Reichskonkordat on 7/20/33. Aproximetly 50,000 witches were executed. These are but some of the atrocities that occurred in Gods name.
frankj1 Offline
#29 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 10:58 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
betcha almost no one proposes restoring money federally or in states that used to go toward mental health.
betcha the rise in hideous stuff coincides with budget cuts that always cut from the neediest first and most.
Speyside Offline
#30 Posted: Thu, Nov 8 2018, 11:32 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Frank, I had not thought of that, but you are right I think. I keep thinking what has changed? I cannot put my finger on it. You just may have.
8trackdisco Offline
#31 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 7:19 AM EST
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,074
dstieger wrote:
La Times:
1120PM, guy walked in and started shooting
1122, first cops arrive -
1126, first cops enter, get shot, one dies
'about 15 minutes later' more cops enter (after shooting over)

Total tragedy.....Wennerstorm sounds like a true hero...as are those first two cops. The cop killed was Sheriff’s Sgt. Ron Helus....,a 29-year veteran of the department, who was planning to retire next year,

Terribly sad. I'm interested to know what was going on with the police from 1126 to 1140-something....clearly there's an ocean of details still not in the news, but seems a long gap after the initial fast response time


+1.
8trackdisco Offline
#32 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 7:23 AM EST
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,074
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I actually think events like this are making it harder and harder to pin the problem on firearms... Minds are fragile and breaking one is easier now than ever...


+1

Nasty cocktail of schools producing snowflakes, more stress and pressure in the world, higher deductibles and limited mental health benefits.

Something has give and people are snapping. It will get worse before it gets better.
ShanaC@CigarBid Offline
#33 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 10:23 AM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 1,090
frankj1 wrote:
betcha almost no one proposes restoring money federally or in states that used to go toward mental health.
betcha the rise in hideous stuff coincides with budget cuts that always cut from the neediest first and most.


This! Sounds about right...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#34 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 11:14 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
betcha almost no one proposes restoring money federally or in states that used to go toward mental health.
betcha the rise in hideous stuff coincides with budget cuts that always cut from the neediest first and most.

Who do you think the majority of that money would benefit? If I had to guess I'd say it would be

1. Homeless people

2. Hard drug abusers

3. Alcoholics


Not my own view, but I can see why people don't want their money going to people who have put themselves in a hole through repeatedly poor choices... Feels like you're just throwing money away at that point...

Assuming we did have great mental health care available to all, how would people like Stephen Paddock and Ian Long encounter it? I have nothing to base this on, but my gut says you could've given those guys a card with a name and number of a great mental health professional willing to provide free care, and they still wouldn't have called...
Buckwheat Offline
#35 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 1:30 PM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old,
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We will remember them."

fog
Speyside Offline
#36 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 1:51 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Opel, here are a few more atrocities committed in the name of God. Millions of infedels have been killed by Muslims. All the evil of the KKK is done in the name of Christianity. The Ameranian genocide done by the Turks in the name of Islam. Who decides what God finds right and wrong?
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 2:31 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Who do you think the majority of that money would benefit? If I had to guess I'd say it would be

1. Homeless people

2. Hard drug abusers

3. Alcoholics


Not my own view, but I can see why people don't want their money going to people who have put themselves in a hole through repeatedly poor choices... Feels like you're just throwing money away at that point...

Assuming we did have great mental health care available to all, how would people like Stephen Paddock and Ian Long encounter it? I have nothing to base this on, but my gut says you could've given those guys a card with a name and number of a great mental health professional willing to provide free care, and they still wouldn't have called...



much of the original tidal surge in homelessness followed severe budget slashing that led to closure of many State and other mental hospitals. Thousands were released to the streets.

drug and alcohol addiction are not necessarily mental conditions, but rather illnesses quite often. Unable to cope, many families (parents, spouses etc.) have the addicted one removed from home. Again, not many alternatives unless one can afford The Betty Ford...over and over again.

if the budget were to be restored and money flowed to those areas we might actually make a dent in these scourges. Both treatment after the fact and preventive measures might have even more success than they did years ago as we know a lot more about these illnesses.

and if only some were eligible for at least partial insurance coverage...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#38 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 3:01 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Speyside wrote:
Opel, here are a few more atrocities committed in the name of God. Millions of infedels have been killed by Muslims. All the evil of the KKK is done in the name of Christianity. The Ameranian genocide done by the Turks in the name of Islam. Who decides what God finds right and wrong?

Donny, you're out of your element...
Abrignac Offline
#39 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 3:01 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,264
frankj1 wrote:
much of the original tidal surge in homelessness followed severe budget slashing that led to closure of many State and other mental hospitals. Thousands were released to the streets.

drug and alcohol addiction are not necessarily mental conditions, but rather illnesses quite often. Unable to cope, many families (parents, spouses etc.) have the addicted one removed from home. Again, not many alternatives unless one can afford The Betty Ford...over and over again.

if the budget were to be restored and money flowed to those areas we might actually make a dent in these scourges. Both treatment after the fact and preventive measures might have even more success than they did years ago as we know a lot more about these illnesses.

and if only some were eligible for at least partial insurance coverage...


All the more reason to use our taxes to take care of our own instead of allowing untold amounts of “asylum” seekers who are offered health and other benefit who have been offered asylum along the way but turned it down.
frankj1 Offline
#40 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 4:53 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
Abrignac wrote:
All the more reason to use our taxes to take care of our own instead of allowing untold amounts of “asylum” seekers who are offered health and other benefit who have been offered asylum along the way but turned it down.

might save even more if we cut back corporate welfare

edit:
especially for those hiring illegals.
Speyside Offline
#41 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 6:23 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Nice deflection Opel. You were busting on Dave. Why can't you answer my question? There seems to have been a lot done in Gods name to refute your position. Again who decides what God wants? Interesting to see if you will answer, or if your conviction is unsupportable.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#42 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 6:43 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I certainly was not "busting on Dave"... I like Dave and enjoy discussions with him...

If you say something is right or wrong, then you believe right and wrong are determined by someone or something...

The 3 generally discussed positions are that morality is determined by:

1. Self

2. Society

3. A divine power

Dave didn't want to talk about it so he claimed I believed only religion can determine morality, despite my having acknowledged the other 2 generally accepted positions...

As for you and the entirely off base point you're trying to make, tell me, which of the atrocities that you listed were committed without violating the tenets of the religion in whose name they were committed?
ZRX1200 Offline
#43 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 11:46 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
LMAO......yeah, money going to the government for mental heath is going to be well spent ........PERS isn’t a problem........they are super efficient and care more about their customers than their benefits and unions. Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick......Joel I appreciate your efforts to move him out of his comfort zone of thought even if it was wasted on him.
frankj1 Offline
#44 Posted: Fri, Nov 9 2018, 11:57 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
restoring the money that used to go to mental health may have lessened and would improve these problems.
What you now have is the money going out to other crap.

Harshest cuts always are to the bottom.
Speyside Offline
#45 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 6:15 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Opel,

I understand the 3 points of view you are making. Let me try to clarify mine.

Morality is learned behavior say 99% of the time. I didn't follow your rational with Dave. Perhaps I wasn't following close enough, what ever. All of the religious atrocities were due to learned behavior or convenience. I do question who understands Gods thoughts? The question is out of context given your rational with Dave. Though I do think it is a good question. Certainly Gods thoughts are beyond the comprehension of my mind.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#46 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 6:28 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
cuz you're not a superstar genus like frank...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#47 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 6:29 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
"It's too bad I won't get to see all the illogical and pathetic reasons people will put in my mouth as to why I did it. Fact is I had no reason to do it, and I just thought....****, life is boring so why not?"
frankj1 Offline
#48 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
opelmanta1900 wrote:
cuz you're not a superstar genus like frank...


um, see, I am LIKE a genius.
Ya know?
Speyside Offline
#49 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 10:05 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
True dat.
frankj1 Offline
#50 Posted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 10:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
though Joel may have intentionally typed genus
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