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US Government Report: Climate Change Now
delta1 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
A new report was just released by the US government about climate change, human causes, current effects and future health, monetary, agricultural, industrial and life style impacts.

https://www.globalchange.gov/content/about-soccr-2

Totally contradicts Trump's opinions...thought he could stifle all these studies by decree...
RMAN4443 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
delta1 wrote:
A new report was just released by the US government about climate change, human causes, current effects and future health, monetary, agricultural, industrial and life style impacts.

https://www.globalchange.gov/content/about-soccr-2

Totally contradicts Trump's opinions...thought he could stifle all these studies by decree...

Has anyone studied the impact of a caravan of 5-10k immigrants converging on the U.S. borders and gaining entry into the U.S. en masse? How will this affect future health, monetary, agriculture, industry, and life styles of the citizens of the U.S.?
These people will need more housing, more education, more food, more jobs, more health care....More land will need to be cleared for housing and farming, more jobs will be needed. If more land is cleared we will lose more trees and farmland, more of our beautiful natural resources will be impacted, which will leave us less clean air and water which can only have a greater impact on the climate.
The Earth is a finite resource, hence the U.S. has finite resources....the more the population increases the greater the urban sprawl and infringement on resources and nature....pretty soon forests and National parks are disappearing, rivers and streams are running dry....just look at what's happening in California, the most populated state in the U.S.
Trump is doing his part to curb this overnight population explosion...people are demonizing him for it...Not talking Brick wall
delta1 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
it's a matter of degree...

climate change will affect the entire world's population...

5-10K immigrants is less than the number of babies born EVERY DAY in the US (10,800)...and not all of them will be allowed in...
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
More fake news... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I'll bet a nice 5er that people are going to laugh their asses off in a hundred years about the whole global warming thing... Mellow
ZRX1200 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,571
I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.


SteveS Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
DrafterX wrote:
I'll bet a nice 5er that people are going to laugh their asses off in a hundred years about the whole global warming thing.


I doubt it'll take 100 years for that to happen ... it's only been 50 years since the alarm bells were being rung about global freezing ... we were being told that the glaciers were advancing and that we were in for a new ice age ...

No current attention is being paid to the possibility of a polar reversal ... which is far and away the more probable disaster facing the planet ...
borndead1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,215
In recent conversations with people about climate change, I ask these 3 questions.

1. Do you believe that the wealthy and powerful have too much influence over government policy and legislation? (most people on both sides of the political spectrum answer yes)

2. If there was a study published on handguns, would you accept the findings of that study as legitimate if the funding for the study came from the NRA? (I am very pro gun rights and even I would consider a study like that to be biased)

3. Two part question: what would you say if I told you that the Rockefeller Foundation has spent over $100 million on climate research, and the official position of the Rockefeller Foundation is that they want global climate regulations enforced by the United Nations? What would you say if I told you that British Petroleum (yes, BP) has also spent over $100 million on climate research, and that they advocate carbon pricing (cap and trade)?

Basically, I break it down like this: you can EITHER believe that the wealthy and powerful have too much influence over government policy and legislation, OR you can believe that scientific research *funded by the wealthy and powerful* is gospel and should be used as a guide for government policy and legislation. You can't believe both of those things.

With all that being said, I am not claiming that human activity doesn't have a negative effect on the environment. Of course human activity has a negative effect on the environment. Only a fool would deny that. But I do believe that the degree of that effect is being exaggerated by political and corporate interests.
ZRX1200 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,571
^ yeah.
Ewok126 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
I don't know about all that meaning I am to ignorant now on the subject because I pulled myself from that fight a while back. but, I do know this.

1.) Enough people will not change until chit hits the fan and by then its to late.
2.) I don't give a chit no more myself because of number 1 and I am tired of fighting that battle. I will not be around to see the world burn when or if the time ever comes because I will be dead by then.
3.) I use to love to debate and such but now I tend to speak my peace and bounce. I am the "give a dog enough rope" type and I tend to sit back and laugh when they do hang themselves so, I let em have it.
4.) Because of all above, I burnt 8 tires in the back yard this week in the name of all the ignorant. I say piss on em and let God sort em out. Not my fight no more. So, in my last bit of time on this rock I am going to enjoy my life with what little I have left. Meaning I am going to enjoy all of the conveniences that the ignorant have enjoyed all these years since I have denied myself that luxury in my life because of the fight and I am refusing to battle any more.

I gots me some burn barrels ready for Christmas and I have a lot of carbon footprints to make up for.

Happy Holidays to us ignorant phugs!
deadeyedick Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,066
Ewok126 wrote:
I don't know about all that meaning I am to ignorant now on the subject because I pulled myself from that fight a while back. but, I do know this.

1.) Enough people will not change until chit hits the fan and by then its to late.
2.) I don't give a chit no more myself because of number 1 and I am tired of fighting that battle. I will not be around to see the world burn when or if the time ever comes because I will be dead by then.
3.) I use to love to debate and such but now I tend to speak my peace and bounce. I am the "give a dog enough rope" type and I tend to sit back and laugh when they do hang themselves so, I let em have it.
4.) Because of all above, I burnt 8 tires in the back yard this week in the name of all the ignorant. I say piss on em and let God sort em out. Not my fight no more. So, in my last bit of time on this rock I am going to enjoy my life with what little I have left. Meaning I am going to enjoy all of the conveniences that the ignorant have enjoyed all these years since I have denied myself that luxury in my life because of the fight and I am refusing to battle any more.

I gots me some burn barrels ready for Christmas and I have a lot of carbon footprints to make up for.

Happy Holidays to us ignorant phugs!



Exactly! Didn't both Hansen and McKibben tell us if we went over 350PPB we would alter the environment to the tipping point and it would literally take many centuries to correct? We passed that and are now around 400PPB.

WE ARE SCREWED!
tailgater Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
borndead1 wrote:
In recent conversations with people about climate change, I ask these 3 questions.

1. Do you believe that the wealthy and powerful have too much influence over government policy and legislation? (most people on both sides of the political spectrum answer yes)

2. If there was a study published on handguns, would you accept the findings of that study as legitimate if the funding for the study came from the NRA? (I am very pro gun rights and even I would consider a study like that to be biased)

3. Two part question: what would you say if I told you that the Rockefeller Foundation has spent over $100 million on climate research, and the official position of the Rockefeller Foundation is that they want global climate regulations enforced by the United Nations? What would you say if I told you that British Petroleum (yes, BP) has also spent over $100 million on climate research, and that they advocate carbon pricing (cap and trade)?

Basically, I break it down like this: you can EITHER believe that the wealthy and powerful have too much influence over government policy and legislation, OR you can believe that scientific research *funded by the wealthy and powerful* is gospel and should be used as a guide for government policy and legislation. You can't believe both of those things.

With all that being said, I am not claiming that human activity doesn't have a negative effect on the environment. Of course human activity has a negative effect on the environment. Only a fool would deny that. But I do believe that the degree of that effect is being exaggerated by political and corporate interests.


I wish I could fit this on a bumper sticker.

Bravo brother BD, bravo.


Ewok126 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
deadeyedick wrote:
Exactly! Didn't both Hansen and McKibben tell us if we went over 350PPB we would alter the environment to the tipping point and it would literally take many centuries to correct? We passed that and are now around 400PPB.

WE ARE SCREWED!



Whats this We Chit Tonto. I am going to die of natural causes lol. Here, let me FIFY.


deadeyedick wrote:
Y'ALL ARE SCREWED! LOL
Phil222 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,911
Ewok126 wrote:
I don't know about all that meaning I am to ignorant now on the subject because I pulled myself from that fight a while back. but, I do know this.

1.) Enough people will not change until chit hits the fan and by then its to late.
2.) I don't give a chit no more myself because of number 1 and I am tired of fighting that battle. I will not be around to see the world burn when or if the time ever comes because I will be dead by then.
3.) I use to love to debate and such but now I tend to speak my peace and bounce. I am the "give a dog enough rope" type and I tend to sit back and laugh when they do hang themselves so, I let em have it.
4.) Because of all above, I burnt 8 tires in the back yard this week in the name of all the ignorant. I say piss on em and let God sort em out. Not my fight no more. So, in my last bit of time on this rock I am going to enjoy my life with what little I have left. Meaning I am going to enjoy all of the conveniences that the ignorant have enjoyed all these years since I have denied myself that luxury in my life because of the fight and I am refusing to battle any more.

I gots me some burn barrels ready for Christmas and I have a lot of carbon footprints to make up for.

Happy Holidays to us ignorant phugs!


I spit my drink out when you started talking about burning tires...classic. And #1 is spot on.
delta1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
victor and tail found agreement that the world is over-populated...we do need to address the world's population...this climate change predicament may be the answer...
DrafterX Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
didn't i read that the entire world's population could be housed in the state of Texas..?? the world is a big place... yes there are over-populated cities but that could be fixed... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
didn't i read that the entire world's population could be housed in the state of Texas..?? the world is a big place... yes there are over-populated cities but that could be fixed... Mellow

Soylent Green???Think
DrafterX Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
it's happened before... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
DrafterX wrote:
didn't i read that the entire world's population could be housed in the state of Texas..?? the world is a big place... yes there are over-populated cities but that could be fixed... Mellow



did I get that wrong? they only agreed that Texas, not the entire world, was over-populated? That aint remarkable...everybody agrees about that...
tailgater Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Now Climate Change is killing the sea turtles.
Over 100 off the coast of Cape Cod.
Damn cold temperatures got to them before the plastic straws.

Now if those same cold temps could chase off the seals so the sharks would go away.

Time to burn some of Ewok's tires.


delta1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
Shame on you
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
A massive storm blanketed much of the central Midwest with snow Sunday, canceling hundreds of flights at airports in Chicago and Kansas City and forcing parts of some major highways to shut down as the Thanksgiving holiday weekend drew to a close.

According to the flight-tracking website FlightAware, 730 flights into or out of Chicago's O'Hare International Airport had been canceled as of 6 p.m. local time, with another 386 flights experiencing delays. Another 124 flights into or out of Chicago Midway International Airport were canceled, with 67 other flights experiencing delays



That Bassard Trump..!! Mad
Ewok126 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
tailgater wrote:
Now Climate Change is killing the sea turtles.
Over 100 off the coast of Cape Cod.
Damn cold temperatures got to them before the plastic straws.

Now if those same cold temps could chase off the seals so the sharks would go away.

Time to burn some of Ewok's tires.




My son works down here as a auto mechanic. How many tires you want?

Piss on sea turtles, seals and sharks. I am going for the chit that matters. Bees, Spiders, etc. That way nothing can pollinate and pest insects will kill off the existing food source.whip
Speyside Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Sigh, global warming climate change causes weather extremes. This can be found in any of the reports/studies you consider to be wrong. You could at least accurately interpret what you are bashing. Only an idiot would not be aware or the weather extremes we have experienced in the last say 5 years.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Only an idiot would believe the weather extremes we have experienced in the last say 5 years are related to any man-made scenario... Mellow
Speyside Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
You miss the point again per usual. When you or anyone else talk about extreme cold as proof these reports/studies are wrong you show a complete lack of understanding of what the reports/studies say. Do you use Trump tweets as your news source on global warming? Because you understand it no better than he does. If you want to debate something try to understand it. Are you unaware of the extreme weather conditions we now experience such as the drought in California, or the increase in the number of hurricanes? Also your bringing up of man made is laughable. My question is why you and other people do not take the time to understand what you are disagreeing with. Not that you don't believe that weather extremes are man made. Please try to follow the discussion points.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
You were disagreeing with me.. Not talking
Buckwheat Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
I really don't care that much if "climate change" is caused by humans. Humans have done so much damage to this planet that we should be doing everything that we can to preserve our home. We've chit in our home for thousands of years thinking that it was too big for us to hurt it. fog
Speyside Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
No, though I do disagree with you. Ill try to make this easy to follow. When you disagree with something you should understand what you disagree with. When anyone here says look its cold there is no global warming they have not bothered to read the reports and do not understand what the know what the scientific community has said about global warming.

Now to the logical parts of your statements. Oh, that's right there aren't any.
DrafterX Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
There wasn't supposed to be... Don't take me so seriously.. Not talking
Ewok126 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
Speyside wrote:
Sigh, global warming climate change causes weather extremes. This can be found in any of the reports/studies you consider to be wrong. You could at least accurately interpret what you are bashing. Only an idiot would not be aware or the weather extremes we have experienced in the last say 5 years.


Shoot, try the weather extremes we have experienced in the last 15-20 years or longer. I remember picking up on it in my teen years before this was even a subject in my life. What made me pick up on it was Halloween and Christmas. Since those two holidays are my absolute favorites since I was able to walk. It was in my teen years I had noticed no more long johns was needed at Halloween or Christmas time. It use to be super cold during those times. Now, Shorts and a T-shirt. Any thing else you are burning up. White Christmas was not that very rare of a thing back then. Now every thing starts blooming at very odd times and it seems winter or the length of winter is now a thing of the past. It had gotten to the point that on Christmas day it became a tradition in my younger years to where all the males in the family would go out on Christmas day and play a few games of Football. In the first 10-15 years of my life it was impossible to do that unless you liked losing fingers and toes to frostbite. We are now at the point where we need to do away with Daylight savings time and start SST, (Seasonal Savings Time).

The growth in population alone in all the years since I was the age of 10 to now is quite astounding. The laissez-faire attitudes that comes with the new folks in that population growth is even more astounding. Me, I have only added one to that growth so, I guess I am partially to blame lol. Ahh well, Time to go burn some more tires. Beer

PS:As to the other folks (you know who you are) If you think that you can keep 1000 neon tetras in a 5 gallon aquarium, you will never have any fish. Oh, and that is even if the fish never burns tires. fog
tailgater Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Buckwheat wrote:
I really don't care that much if "climate change" is caused by humans. Humans have done so much damage to this planet that we should be doing everything that we can to preserve our home. We've chit in our home for thousands of years thinking that it was too big for us to hurt it. fog


This.

The problem is that there is no money in pollution. Difficult to tax.
World government finally found a way to tax our pollution: The ever changing climate.


Speyside Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tail, it is beyond my ability to understand what portion of global warming is man made.
tailgater Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Just read the consensus.


DrafterX Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
So if it's not man made then how is money going to stop it..?.? Think
Ewok126 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
DrafterX wrote:
So if it's not man made then how is money going to stop it..?.? Think



Money burns cleaner? Anxious
Speyside Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
LMAO! What consensus? Haven't read anything that begins to tell me how much is natural, like the end of the mini ice age, and how much is man made. Certainly both exist, but that's the rub, isn't it. Certainly a cleaner environment would be a good thing, but what should that mean? The forests are more pristine according to some, makes good fuel for fires. I'd like us to do the right thing. I think most of us want that. But what is the right thing?
Abrignac Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,256
Speyside wrote:
You miss the point again per usual. When you or anyone else talk about extreme cold as proof these reports/studies are wrong you show a complete lack of understanding of what the reports/studies say. Do you use Trump tweets as your news source on global warming? Because you understand it no better than he does. If you want to debate something try to understand it. Are you unaware of the extreme weather conditions we now experience such as the drought in California, or the increase in the number of hurricanes? Also your bringing up of man made is laughable. My question is why you and other people do not take the time to understand what you are disagreeing with. Not that you don't believe that weather extremes are man made. Please try to follow the discussion points.


Increase in hurricanes? I’ve lived in the hurricane bullseye for about 41 of the 53 years I have been breathing air. I can tell you without a doubt that hurricane activity/severity has been in a lull for the last 3 years.
Abrignac Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,256
Speyside wrote:
LMAO! What consensus? Haven't read anything that begins to tell me how much is natural, like the end of the mini ice age, and how much is man made. Certainly both exist, but that's the rub, isn't it. Certainly a cleaner environment would be a good thing, but what should that mean? The forests are more pristine according to some, makes good fuel for fires. I'd like us to do the right thing. I think most of us want that. But what is the right thing?


Drink a glass of scotch or bourbon, have a smoke, set your alarm and go to bed, wake up in the AM, chit, shower and shave. Eat 3 meals and go to work.

Lather, rinse and repeat as many times as possible. When you can’t do that anymore you’ll get planted 6 feet under and your worries will go away.
Ewok126 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,356
^^^

AMEN Brother.. AMEN!
Speyside Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
You know what, you are right Anthony. The number of hurricanes has not increased. I reread what I wrote and realized I articulated something far different than what I was thinking. I was thinking about 2 points relating to hurricanes. 1) The number of intense hurricanes, category 4 and 5 have increased. 2) The average rainfall from hurricanes has increased. So part of my statement was wrong. I suppose I could have chose to talk about the extreme precipitation levels on the east coast as well.
tailgater Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside wrote:
You know what, you are right Anthony. The number of hurricanes has not increased. I reread what I wrote and realized I articulated something far different than what I was thinking. I was thinking about 2 points relating to hurricanes. 1) The number of intense hurricanes, category 4 and 5 have increased. 2) The average rainfall from hurricanes has increased. So part of my statement was wrong. I suppose I could have chose to talk about the extreme precipitation levels on the east coast as well.


When you start qualifying your stats, they become meaningless.

Plus, there is no need.

The climate is changing.
It always has.
Always will.

I like what you said earlier regarding the environment. We should protect it.
Problem is, it would be a government thing. And that means they'll botch it up and over tax us.
Which is where we are now. With "the consensus" and fossil fuel Armageddon.






Speyside Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Joe, there are a number of problems with the government trying to fix our climate. First of all the government is not for the people. They are for special interest groups. Also, as you stated, taxes are not problem fixes. Finally, does the government Even know what to do?

Even if we fixed the United States pollution issues the climate would still be taking serious damage. Particularly from India and China. Their pollution levels are staggering. Also the world population is non sustainable. The deforrestation of the rain forests is ongoing.
Abrignac Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,256
Speyside wrote:
Joe, there are a number of problems with the government trying to fix our climate. First of all the government is not for the people. They are for special interest groups. Also, as you stated, taxes are not problem fixes. Finally, does the government Even know what to do?

Even if we fixed the United States pollution issues the climate would still be taking serious damage. Particularly from India and China. Their pollution levels are staggering. Also the world population is non sustainable. The deforrestation of the rain forests is ongoing.


So you would agree that nuking China would make a huge difference?

Frying pan
Gene363 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,790
Ewok126 wrote:
I don't know about all that meaning I am to ignorant now on the subject because I pulled myself from that fight a while back. but, I do know this.

1.) Enough people will not change until chit hits the fan and by then its to late.
2.) I don't give a chit no more myself because of number 1 and I am tired of fighting that battle. I will not be around to see the world burn when or if the time ever comes because I will be dead by then.
3.) I use to love to debate and such but now I tend to speak my peace and bounce. I am the "give a dog enough rope" type and I tend to sit back and laugh when they do hang themselves so, I let em have it.
4.) Because of all above, I burnt 8 tires in the back yard this week in the name of all the ignorant. I say piss on em and let God sort em out. Not my fight no more. So, in my last bit of time on this rock I am going to enjoy my life with what little I have left. Meaning I am going to enjoy all of the conveniences that the ignorant have enjoyed all these years since I have denied myself that luxury in my life because of the fight and I am refusing to battle any more.

I gots me some burn barrels ready for Christmas and I have a lot of carbon footprints to make up for.

Happy Holidays to us ignorant phugs!


I can only add that with any crisis, someone will figure out a way to monetize it, e.g., carbon credits.

When riding on the Titanic, it make sense to go first class.
dstieger Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Even if you believe that even though climate may be warming and man has had little effect....do you also believe that greenhouse gasses are immaterial to the conversation?

What if man, through technology and behavioral changes, could reduce greenhouse gasses, and thus exert some 'control' over climate; or at least over earth's surface temperatures? Would you be opposed to related research?
Gene363 Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,790
dstieger wrote:
Even if you believe that even though climate may be warming and man has had little effect....do you also believe that greenhouse gasses are immaterial to the conversation?

What if man, through technology and behavioral changes, could reduce greenhouse gasses, and thus exert some 'control' over climate; or at least over earth's surface temperatures? Would you be opposed to related research?


No, but remember to find out who is financing the research, e.g., tobacco use 'research' paid for by cigarette makers, as always, follow the money.
dstieger Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Ok...but research will cost money...and tech development will also cost money -- I accept what you're saying, but incentives (future profits) are required for anything to get done....unless you want government doing it

I don't know much about current tech related to greenhouse gasses, but with proper incentives (funding?), I have read that 'CO2 removal systems' may not be all too distant -- maybe we can keep eating meat and keep driving gas powered cars, but suck the bad stuff out of the air?

Hard to have even that discussion (potential tech..and funding), though, if large swaths of our society refuse to discuss that there's value in trying
opelmanta1900 Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
Even if you believe that even though climate may be warming and man has had little effect....do you also believe that greenhouse gasses are immaterial to the conversation?

What if man, through technology and behavioral changes, could reduce greenhouse gasses, and thus exert some 'control' over climate; or at least over earth's surface temperatures? Would you be opposed to related research?

The white man wiped out those out-of-control methane factories called buffalo herds, and we've taken nothing but heat for it ever since... I'm done trying... Not talking
DrafterX Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
poor buffalos.... Sad
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