America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 3 months ago by ZRX1200. 63 replies replies.
2 Pages12>
"Venezuela’s Military Backs Maduro as...
Phil222 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
...Russia Warns U.S. Not to Intervene"

It sounds like it's time for a regime change again...for the benefit of the Venezuelan people. wink wink

What I don’t understand is if Trump is so friendly with Putin, then why does he keep interfering with his affairs? We have seen it with weapon sales to Ukraine, bombings in Syria, and now this Venezuela stuff. Maybe all of this is just a ruse intended to throw us off the trail?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/world/americas/venezuela-news-maduro-russia.html
RMAN4443 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,230
Prolly some kinda collusion or sumthin...Think
Phil222 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
Agreed. Some collusion on how to muck with Putin's agenda...Cool
frankj1 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
gonna stock up on Venezuelan rum...
Phil222 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
better stock up on gasoline while your at it.
frankj1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
Citgo
Phil222 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
I like Wawa. Citgo...Ha! Frank is always super smaht.
ZRX1200 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 48,931
So Pence has a very anti Maduro speech, so how anti Russia is the administration again?
Phil222 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
Was that a question for me? Not sure what you’re asking. I’m certainly not an expert on the situation there.
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 48,931
No not for you specifically at all it was in general
Speyside Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 7,634
Phil, #8 is very Z like. He gave everyone some honest information. Then he posed a question that requires some honest thought. I suppose I could say not very, and mention reasons like Trumps continuous praise of Putin, lowering of sanctions on at least one Russian oligarch, the number of people around him when committed crimes relating to Russia, or the apparent lies about Russian time lines. But I would rather say I am not sure. I think there are any number of actions by Trump, and the Republicans that point out it isn't as simple as liberals saying Trump is pro Russian. Z, mea culpa, I know you spoke about the administration and not Trump. But this administration is a very strong reflection of our presidents point of view.
Phil222 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
I have trouble keeping up sometimes. Some smart peeps around here. Especially that Frank character.

There was definitely Russian meddling in the 2016 election, and no denying that people in Trump’s circle have committed crimes in regards to Russia. Possibly even Trump himself?

My original question was if Trump is a Putin-puppet or concerned about a hotel in Moscow like some in the media have stated, then why does he continue to make moves that could greatly diminish the influence of Russia around the globe and potentially cost them billions of dollars? I’m not sure if there’s a correct answer. I just thought it was something interesting to think about.

The removal of the sanctions on the Russian billionaire doesn’t sound great, but I would like to know more about it before I rush to judgement. I should probably stop being lazy and try to find some information on it.
delta1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
Maduro is a product of the Hugo Chavez regime, and has been anti-US like his boss since he ascended to power after Chavez died...it is in our best interests to stabilize that country to slow the flow of refugees trying to escape the worsening economic conditions there...the person being supported by the US is very popular among the Venezuelans, and the hope is that he can reverse the corruption of the Maduro era...the military, which Maduro supposedly controlled, are standing back...

too simple to say this is an anti-Russia move...just like it's too simple to say pulling out of Syria is a pro-Russia move...
Phil222 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
delta1 wrote:
it is in our best interests to stabilize that country to slow the flow of refugees trying to escape the worsening economic conditions there...

If this is the case then perhaps we should overthrow a few more governments. Would it be in our best interest to overthrow all governments around the world that are having economic troubles, or just the ones who sit on the biggest oil reserves in the world? Maybe just the ones who have refugees trying to come to the U.S.?

If we absolutely must step in, are there any options we could take other than coups to help fix the situation there? To stop refugees? Maybe provide some aid or something? Build a wall? Ha!

It’s definitely too simple to say this is an anti-Russia move. I’m not sure that I would take that stance, but it’s certainly a move that affects their influence and could potentially cost them billions of dollars.

That is of course if our new friend takes over the country and starts buying weapons from the U.S. instead of Russia in the future.

Would also depend on the new leadership that Guaido plans to put in control of their oil business not being be so friendly with Russia anymore. I would guess the chances of both of those things happening under Guaido are very possible. But I’m just spitballing here. Maybe I should take another look at what’s happening there.
frankj1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
Phil222 wrote:
I have trouble keeping up sometimes. Some smart peeps around here. Especially that Frank character.

the more Venezuelan rum you drink the smahtah I get.
Phil222 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
frankj1 wrote:
the more Venezuelan rum you drink the smahtah I get.

You must’ve reached Einstein levels by now...Beer
Speyside Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 7,634
Actually for Frank, demigod.
dstieger Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,870
Phil222 wrote:
If this is the case then perhaps we should overthrow a few more governments. Would it be in our best interest to overthrow all governments around the world that are having economic troubles, or just the ones who sit on the biggest oil reserves in the world?

Tread lightly....you could be the next Jonesy....the answers aren't hard if you first ask 'who might profit?'
MACS Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 64,816
Who pays the military? Of course they back the guy who pays them.

This is what Bernie wants to bring to the USA... socialism.
delta1 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
I don't think that is quite accurate...Bernie would retain capitalism, the for-profit engine of the US economy...

gotta find a balance between what for-profits do best and what is best for non-profits to do...that's why we should not privatize public education, the postal system, social security and Medicare among a host of other things...
MACS Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 64,816
I dunno, Al. The government wastes money in everything it has its fingers in.

I prefer less government, and it seems every year we give away more control TO the government. This is not good, and is why our ancestors wrote the constitution, isn't it?
delta1 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
private industry has its excesses too, and an unregulated financial industry nearly ruined the world economy 10 years ago (remember AIG having a million dollar party after the meltdown? Enron before that...on and on)private industry caused the Great Depression, and has created environmental disasters that may outlive the human race...

good government prevented Hitler from taking over the world, and mashalled private business to rebuild the world after the war...

just like a well-regulated militia, I believe the founders would say we need a well regulated industry... part of the Constitution was written to regulate interstate commerce...
ZRX1200 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 48,931
Except you have a CHOICE to participate with private industry, where as our government who allegedly works for us imprisons those who don’t play along with their game. How well do boycotts on Government work? Phil, refreshing to see someone withholding judgement to see more.
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
so it turns out Maduro has been on double secret probation.
Phil222 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
What have you heard? I heard he dropped a whole truckload of fizzies into the swim meet.
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
clearly you know more than me
Phil222 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
Ha! That's not good.
frankj1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,940
I got false news. fizzies are correct. I heard flav-a-straws were being distributed
RMAN4443 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,230
I think I heard they ordered a truckload of Lik-em-Stix.....I could be wrong...it may have been Mentos Think
Mr. Jones Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 10,735
MADURO needs a distraction against all the Hunger and mayhem....

He should declare ARUBA ..."ENEMY NO.1" AND invade them so everyone forgets about 1 million% inflation and no food...

If TRUMP HAD ANY BRAINS?

HE'D SEND THOSE NEW NASTY AZZ "SNAP RECIPIENT FOOD BOXES" DOWN TO VENEZUELA AND THE PEOPLE COULD EAT THEM....AND LIKE IT...THEN OVERTHROW MADURO....
rfenst Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 29,300
Mr. Jones wrote:
MADURO needs a distraction against all the Hunger and mayhem....

He should declare ARUBA ..."ENEMY NO.1" AND invade them so everyone forgets about 1 million% inflation and no food...

If TRUMP HAD ANY BRAINS?

HE'D SEND THOSE NEW NASTY AZZ "SNAP RECIPIENT FOOD BOXES" DOWN TO VENEZUELA AND THE PEOPLE COULD EAT THEM....AND LIKE IT...THEN OVERTHROW MADURO....


Leave Aruba alone!
dstieger Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,870
Maybe Venezuela needs a CT....for a change of pace
rfenst Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 29,300
dstieger wrote:
Maybe Venezuela needs a CT....for a change of pace

What does "CT"stand for?
dstieger Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,870
Connecticut....
Phil222 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
I think maybe Guaido is from Connecticut. Would explain why most people down there had never heard of him until he announced himself president.

On a serious note, I found this article while looking at some stuff on Venezuela. I’ve never heard of the Atlas Network. It got me wondering about groups like this on the left. Who are the Atlas Network/Heritage Foundation type groups for left-wing politics?

SPHERE OF INFLUENCE: HOW AMERICAN LIBERTARIANS ARE REMAKING LATIN AMERICAN POLITICS
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/09/atlas-network-alejandro-chafuen-libertarian-think-tank-latin-america-brazil/
delta1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
glad we're siding with the will of the people and a democratic form of govt. instead of fawning over, propping up and supporting a dictator, like we've done for the past two years...used to be a staple in American foreign policy...

maybe Trump is becoming more like POTUS...

and it seems Guiado has his own supporters among the Venezuelan military...
Phil222 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
Are we siding with the will of the Venezuelan people or dictating it? I’m still trying to figure that one out.

Pence called Venezuelan opposition leader to pledge US backing before his announcement
https://nypost.com/2019/01/25/pence-called-venezuelan-opposition-leader-to-pledge-us-backing/

US diplomat convicted over Iran-Contra appointed special envoy for Venezuela
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/26/elliott-abrams-venezuela-us-special-envoy

CIA chief hints agency is working to change Venezuelan government
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-venezuela-crisis-government-mike-pompeo-helping-install-new-remarks-a7859771.html
DrafterX Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 87,941
Turn it all into glass..!! Mad
Phil222 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
Timber shakes these trails, they all derail
Phony, false, and frail
An empty ocean, lost our way with no direction home
Golden needles names we take in vain
Find it harder to remain
nothing's sacred waiting on that explanation...Mellow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YclaqsUP1Lk
delta1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
it seems that Maduro and his Socialist Party does not have the support of the people nor some elements of the military...he and his rich cronies maintain power by buying the generals...
Phil222 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
How do we really know that he doesn't have any support? I’ve seen protests, but that doesn’t tell me much because people protest every government. Look at what’s happening in France with the yellow vests, or even here with the pink hats and anti-Trump marches. There are unhappy people here and plenty of corruption throughout our government. That doesn’t mean some other country should freeze all of the assets we need to survive until Trump steps down for someone who will better suit their interests.

I haven’t seen or read anything yet that leads me to believe the Venezuelan people are not capable of handling this situation for themselves. Google image, "Starving Yemen." Yemen needs some help. Non-intervention with situations like Venezuela should be a place where many people on the left and right can come together in unison. Especially given our poor history with swapping out governments.

It appears Maduro's days are numbered, and have been for a very long time. I apologize about all of the whataboutism and rambling in this thread, but I feel some of it is relevant. I respect and appreciate all of you who share your thoughts and opinions on the tough subjects. A lot of you know more about politics than most of the people I get to converse with on a daily basis, so I enjoy debating this type of stuff with all of you.
dstieger Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,870
I think your concerns are valid, Phil. I don't know much about the situation down there beyond scanning headlines. Seems the new guy may have some constitutionality on his side. And we have lots of reasons to want Maduro gone. But the bar for us to decide to actively intervene must be extremely high. The thought that Bolton would have us readying troops worries me greatly.
MACS Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 64,816
I agree. They aren't a threat to us, so why intervene? Socialism crippled them... and their citizens obviously voted for it, so let them deal with the mess they made.

I'd be in favor of not allowing travel to or from there until they get it sorted, though.
rfenst Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 29,300
MACS wrote:
I agree. They aren't a threat to us, so why intervene? Socialism crippled them... and their citizens obviously voted for it, so let them deal with the mess they made.

I'd be in favor of not allowing travel to or from there until they get it sorted, though.

+1
rfenst Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 29,300
dstieger wrote:
I think your concerns are valid, Phil. I don't know much about the situation down there beyond scanning headlines. Seems the new guy may have some constitutionality on his side. And we have lots of reasons to want Maduro gone. But the bar for us to decide to actively intervene must be extremely high. The thought that Bolton would have us readying troops worries me greatly.


Bolton has always scared me. Period.
Phil222 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,445
“We’re in conversation with major American companies now that are either in Venezuela or in the case of Citgo, here in the United States; I think we're trying to get to the same end result here...it would make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela.”

-John Bolton on Fox Business
ZRX1200 Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 48,931
Bolton is a globalist shill.

He loves him some war too......
opelmanta1900 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 9,127
MACS wrote:
I agree. They aren't a threat to us, so why intervene? Socialism crippled them... and their citizens obviously voted for it, so let them deal with the mess they made.

I'd be in favor of not allowing travel to or from there until they get it sorted, though.

Did the citizens vote for it? Didn't maduro drastically alter the constitution to essentially install himself as a dictator?
DrafterX Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 87,941
I think he just wanted to be rich like Chavez... If it's not broken and stuff ya know.... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,681
seems Bolton's plan is to help big American business interests, especially big oil, exploit Venezuela...we've gone down that path many times in South America, Central America and the Middle East...mostly with unhappy endings...
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>