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Last post 3 months ago by KingoftheCove. 69 replies replies.
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Aging Advice
dstieger Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,855
👍👍
KingoftheCove Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,328
So, I’m guessing the moral of the story is........if you find a batch of cigars you like a lot, buy as many as you can, as soon as you can, from the same vendor.........and keep your fingers crossed.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 685
dstieger wrote:
But I just have not experienced the marked improvement in 3+ year old NC cigars that you have. If anything, the NC cigars I like most generally tend to diminish after years, IMO.

I only have, and smoke, non-Cuban cigars, so I have no personal experience with Cuban cigars, just things I've read and heard from other people. So the rest of this post (and all my posts relating personal experience) refers only to non-Cubans.

I've had many that were "meh" at 3 years but great to amazing at 5+ years. Also, I've never experienced one that "diminished" after any span of time, no matter how long. The strength and pepper often decreases somewhat, but generally not hugely so, and the payback is usually a great increase in richness and complexity of "married-ness" of the flavors, which more than makes up for the modest loss of strength/pepper. What happens as time goes on, in my experience, is that this improvement process keeps happening but at an ever-slower rate (diminishing returns), but I've never seen a "step backward" in overall quality at any age.

So, your experiences don't match mine. I think palate differences explain most, if not all, of it. It's very interesting! All you folks out there, you might have a Pudding Mittens palate or a dstieger palate, or another palate entirely. It's up to you to figure it out with personal experimentation! Nobody can tell you hard-and-fast rules that are guaranteed to apply to your particular palate.

Quote:
I suspect that quality NC filler and wrapper is typically aged longer than Cuban tobacco....and maybe that would explain what I think I've experienced.

I'm sure that explains a lot of it, at least, if not all.

These differences in experience are part of what makes the hobby so interesting!
.
KingoftheCove Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,328
KingoftheCove wrote:
So, I’m guessing the moral of the story is........if you find a batch of cigars you like a lot, buy as many as you can, as soon as you can, from the same vendor.........and keep your fingers crossed.

Kicking myself for not grabbing the MC3 Roxxos recently for 69.95, free hat, free ship.
I won’t make that mistake again...

gummy jones Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 6,790
imo all cigars need acclimated (rested) to some degree but when an nc (i mostly only smoke Nicaraguan) is truly aged it mellows (to some that may be enjoyable) and loses some of the kick that i enjoy in something from esteli. maybe ccs seem to develop more and mature because most of us dont buy them for potency, etc? im thinking aloud here. maybe im rambling?

i like 10 year old ccs a lot more on average than i do 10 year old ncs as the latter are more likely to be air bombs imo. in truth, i have quite a few boxes of ncs that were very enjoyable 3-4 years ago (and i even kept tasting notes on) that now are muted at best.

i never appreciated the difference until i smoked more ccs and especially aged ccs. im sure many members here have more expertise than me.

the point about production pressure on the small island and rushing cigars to market is most likely true.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 685
gummy jones wrote:
loses some of the kick that i enjoy in something from esteli. [...]

10 year old ncs [...] are more likely to be air bombs imo.

in truth, i have quite a few boxes of ncs that were very enjoyable 3-4 years ago (and i even kept tasting notes on) that now are muted at best.

The more I read the experiences and opinions of other cigar guys about this, the more I suspect that the ability to detect strength/pepper/body is probably almost universal, whereas the ability to detect the complexity and "married-ness" of flavors produced by aging (hereafter referred to as "that other stuff") is more rare.

If you CAN detect that other stuff, your brain defines "quality" as strength/pepper/body AND that other stuff, so you experience what I do: aged NCs lose some strength but gain more of that other stuff, so overall they never "lose quality".

If you CANNOT detect that other stuff, your brain definies "quality" mostly as just strength/pepper/body, so you experience what some of you other guys do: aged NCs "lose quality" and become "muted" or "airballs", because you can only detect what they've lost, and can't detect what they've gained.

Just a theory, but it seems to fit.

No, I'm not saying anyone's palate is inferior to mine, just different.

An analogy would be if Guy A has normal color vision, and Guy B was born without photoreceptors in his eyes for the color red. If we take a dark room and turn on a blue floodlight, both guys will say the room is lit and they can see things fine. If the blue floodlight is then faded out as a red floodlight is faded in, Guy A will say that the nature of the room's illumination has changed but it hasn't lost any overall brightness, while Guy B will say the brightness level decreased down to zero and now it's totally dark.

Different sensory hardware, different experiences.
.
KingoftheCove Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,328
A few years back, some of us grabbed a stash of pre Davidoff Camacho Corojo boxes from 2006 and 2007 from the mb3 place.
Those have aged quite well imo.........wonderful Corojo flavor, with other floral notes and some spice bouncing in and out.
I’m glad I grabbed 3 boxes.
On the other hand, they might have been better in 2010....I’ll never know...
gummy jones Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 6,790
Pudding Mittens wrote:
The more I read the experiences and opinions of other cigar guys about this, the more I suspect that the ability to detect strength/pepper/body is probably almost universal, whereas the ability to detect the complexity and "married-ness" of flavors produced by aging (hereafter referred to as "that other stuff") is more rare.

If you CAN detect that other stuff, your brain defines "quality" as strength/pepper/body AND that other stuff, so you experience what I do: aged NCs lose some strength but gain more of that other stuff, so overall they never "lose quality".

If you CANNOT detect that other stuff, your brain definies "quality" mostly as just strength/pepper/body, so you experience what some of you other guys do: aged NCs "lose quality" and become "muted" or "airballs", because you can only detect what they've lost, and can't detect what they've gained.

Just a theory, but it seems to fit.

No, I'm not saying anyone's palate is inferior to mine, just different.

An analogy would be if Guy A has normal color vision, and Guy B was born without photoreceptors in his eyes for the color red. If we take a dark room and turn on a blue floodlight, both guys will say the room is lit and they can see things fine. If the blue floodlight is then faded out as a red floodlight is faded in, Guy A will say that the nature of the room's illumination has changed but it hasn't lost any overall brightness, while Guy B will say the brightness level decreased down to zero and now it's totally dark.

Different sensory hardware, different experiences.
.


you need to get your hands on some ccs of various ages and see for yourself

the changes on some are really mind blowing

experiencing said things is certainly more valuable than reading some fat guy's opinion about it online

at least it was for me

and on that note, feel free to ignore this tiger's opinion as well Gonz
gummy jones Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 6,790
KingoftheCove wrote:
A few years back, some of us grabbed a stash of pre Davidoff Camacho Corojo boxes from 2006 and 2007 from the mb3 place.
Those have aged quite well imo.........wonderful Corojo flavor, with other floral notes and some spice bouncing in and out.
I’m glad I grabbed 3 boxes.
On the other hand, they might have been better in 2010....I’ll never know...


i have been the lucky recipient of a few of those from various botl (had one labeled as 2006 a couple days ago) and they are still very pleasurable indeed.
dstieger Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,855
PM, I'm fully on board with assertion that sensory perception varies...and varies in ways that are immeasurable...today, anyway. But I think that too easily dismisses variables and variations in tobacco and blends. I am wholly of the opinion that many NC cigars have lost a lot of flavor....not just strength, over the course of a few years. Sure, its impossible to tell if it's just my evolving palate, but I remain convinced. I particularly think that applies to Nicaraguan blends.
delta1 Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,633
I smoke mostly NC, and occasional CC...maybe 25 - 1 ratio, so my experience reflects that. The best two or three cigars I've ever smoked were aged Cubans, 10+ years...

but I've also smoked a few 10+ years aged CC that were disappointing...

Some of the NC that I really liked fresh, like the Las Calaveras from 2014, did not benefit from aging. They were among the very best cigars I've smoked, but two years later their "wow" diminished. Like some of the Tatuaje Monsters...great when released, but losing some oomph over the years...

Like KOTC, I really liked the aged Camacho Corojos...and Dpnewell's recommended La Perla Habana Morado ORs were also excellent...somehow the dusty/musty flavor married well with the other flavors...but 10 + year old Torano Tributes that were supposedly great cigars when released (didn't smoke cigars at that time) were dusty airballs...

Among the best cigars I had were a 15+ year OpusX Reserva D'Chateau and a 10+ year LGD Small Batch #2...

TG's analysis that cigars/tobacco are similar to wine/grapes sound right: they are organic products that vary from year to year...that's why the consistency of some Fuentes and Padrons over the years is noteworthy..

I also think that circumstances enhance one's enjoyment of cigars...they tend to be better when you are celebrating something with other people, so there's a social aspect to this discussion...enjoying a cigar in solitude and clinically comparing its qualities is a totally different experience...
Ewok126 Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,330
Aging Advice...

Do it with grace if you can.
RMAN4443 Online
#63 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,191
Ewok126 wrote:
Aging Advice...

Do it with grace if you can.

Grace won't even speak to me since...well, let's just say Grace doesn't speak to me anymore...Anxious
Ewok126 Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,330
^^^

Yeah, the biatch quit talking to me as well a few years back. Grace left me for some other biatch named Chastity.
delta1 Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,633
I've been looking for grace too...prolly in all the wrong places...I'm so clumsy, grace sees me coming and splits...
frankj1 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,870
say Goodnight, Gracie.
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 120,250
delta1 wrote:
I smoke mostly NC, and occasional CC...maybe 25 - 1 ratio, so my experience reflects that. The best two or three cigars I've ever smoked were aged Cubans, 10+ years...

but I've also smoked a few 10+ years aged CC that were disappointing...

Some of the NC that I really liked fresh, like the Las Calaveras from 2014, did not benefit from aging. They were among the very best cigars I've smoked, but two years later their "wow" diminished. Like some of the Tatuaje Monsters...great when released, but losing some oomph over the years...

Like KOTC, I really liked the aged Camacho Corojos...and Dpnewell's recommended La Perla Habana Morado ORs were also excellent...somehow the dusty/musty flavor married well with the other flavors...but 10 + year old Torano Tributes that were supposedly great cigars when released (didn't smoke cigars at that time) were dusty airballs...

Among the best cigars I had were a 15+ year OpusX Reserva D'Chateau and a 10+ year LGD Small Batch #2...

TG's analysis that cigars/tobacco are similar to wine/grapes sound right: they are organic products that vary from year to year...that's why the consistency of some Fuentes and Padrons over the years is noteworthy..

I also think that circumstances enhance one's enjoyment of cigars...they tend to be better when you are celebrating something with other people, so there's a social aspect to this discussion...enjoying a cigar in solitude and clinically comparing its qualities is a totally different experience...



It's more like an illusion of consistency. Can't remember who it was specifically, Frank Llaneza possibly, or maybe Manuel Quesada, or maybe a master blender for Habanos that I no longer remember the name of, who described the process in an interview once. It went something like this:

...Because crops change from year to year, even the same varietal will taste slightly different, you create an illusion of consistency by always blending in some tobacco from the year before, and even a little from the year before that. There is no way to truly side-by-side compare a fresh X year to a fresh X+1 year because one of them is now aged and once aging happens, tobacco changes and aging is unpredictable. Experience allows one to take a best guess, but it's just that, a guess. A lot of factors can influence a fresh cigar, aging adds more factors that compound on the former factors, it's not just, say 20 factors plus another 20, it's 20 times 20, now you have 400 possibilities... So the aim is as closely preserve the profile as possible by adding enough of the former years tobacco to create a similar flavor, this gives that illusion of consistency...

I've heard similar from other blenders / line owners.

Fuente and Padron both have huge stockpiles going back years. Carlos Fuente jr said he didn't even know how many barns of tobacco he owned in total when those 8(?) barns went up in flames last year or the year before. I've been to Esteli, Nicaragua where Padron is located, and there are a LOT of yellow buildings spread around that town. Jorge was laughing about it, telling us the story how in the early days, his father, Jose, would paint their buildings yellow because he said it kept the insects away and, even though he (Jorge) doesn't really completely believe that, it became almost a trademark for them, so they have continued the tradition.

When you have these large inventories to pull from, and you aren't dependent on someone else for your tobacco supplies or your processing of tobacco, you have the ability to create this consistency.
Cereal City Cigar Smoker Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 03-30-2006
Posts: 14,113
∆ great explanation, TG! I've been saying for years how it's virtually impossible to produce the same exact blend year after year. One of the reasons I stock up when I find a cigar I really enjoy. Large inventories of tobacco and using some of the older tobacco with newer to create the Illusion of consistency makes sense. Think

Thanks, TG!
KingoftheCove Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,328
Frank is LIKE a genius...
TG is a cigar genius...
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