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Last post 5 years ago by victor809. 58 replies replies.
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Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire
teedubbya Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Exactly. Global warming is not real.
tamapatom Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 03-19-2015
Posts: 7,381
I was dropped on my head out of a moving car as a child. I believe gravity is real.
frankj1 Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
has anyone heard from Touchdown Jesus?
Speyside Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I've heard rock and roll Jesus.
tamapatom Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 03-19-2015
Posts: 7,381
Christopher Marrion: When you start looking at fires in historic buildings, a number of common themes start to come through. One is looking at the combustible materials and the interior finishes and the overall structure being of combustible materials.

Then getting into potentially limited detection systems and being able to alert the emergency responders and delays with regards to that. Limits in terms of fire separations and compartmentation. Limited or even no automatic suppression system, such as sprinklers or water mist systems or anything like that, as well as then just giving them access to the site and being able to get close to the building and having the resources from water to having standpipes to having enclosed stairways that they can be working out of.

You know, taking one of those things out of that is challenging. But then when you kind of line all of these up together it creates a lot of challenges for firefighters to really, you know, be able to protect these buildings.

Hi, my name is Chris Marrion. I am a fire and disaster management consultant.

In terms of, yes, fires in historic buildings and structures, they are fairly common — not just in terms of there being a fire, but overall the extent of damage that then results once a fire does get started.

We've seen recently the Glasgow School of Art fire, the second fire there that was during restoration. We've seen it on a number of other buildings: Troitsky Cathedral in St. Petersburg, Wangdue Phodrang Dzong in Bhutan.

One part is just looking at the overall construction, in terms of the structural elements — the wood trusses, the roof decking, for instance, just regular interior finishes throughout these buildings that are a lot of times of wood.

When we first see some of these buildings they look like, you know, stone masonry-type construction that is non-combustible. Once going inside you can see a lot of times the interior finishes. A lot are covered in woodwork. The floors, the pews, and churches and so forth are all wood and combustible materials. And then over time, buildings continue to accumulate materials — papers, whether it's artwork, all types of different things that are actually combustible, and they just continue over time to build up and get placed throughout different areas of the building.

Some of the other things that we run into is just looking at fire separations, for instance. There may not be a fire separation. It may just be a large uncompartmented space that would allow the fire to spread within that space and to continue on kind of unchecked. They may have actually put in fire walls at times, but then over the years and centuries and so forth, you know, doors may be removed for various reasons.

One of the other things just to keep in mind too, you know, it's challenging to send emergency responders into those spaces. There's limited areas that they have to fight a fire from. They have limited water supplies and hoses and those types of things. So it's typically an externally fought fire. And when you look at that, you know, a lot of these roofs in these older buildings are of slate or a lead or copper or different types of materials, which are intended to keep the water out. So, you know, spraying water on the tops of these roofs, they're not actually, you know, penetrating into those upper attic spaces.

A lot of times when you do see fires in historic structures, it is a lot during restoration period. For instance, Troitsky Cathedral in Russia, several years ago there was a fire during construction. Wangdue Phodrang Dzong in Bhutan had a fire just a few years ago as well, too. There's a lot that's going on during that time that introduce hazards. We have, you know, a lot of temporary electrical, temporary lighting in those. We have hot works going on — cutting torches and welding operations and those types of things. So, you know, there's a fair amount of new ignition sources that are introduced there on a temporary basis.

We also can have a lot of combustible materials introduced to the site in terms of overall construction materials, potentially the scaffolding, those types of things that could be introduced on site. So in terms of the fire, the ignition potential could be increasing.

On the mitigation side, we often, you know the detection system maybe being installed or maybe covered over so that the dust and debris is creating nuisance alarms. And then on the fire separation side as well, too, at times, doors are taken off to be restored and they're bought somewhere else.

I think, you know, there's definitely things that can be done to help improve the protection of these buildings. I think, you know, over the years people have been living, working, you know, going to services in these buildings for years, and these buildings have lasted for centuries at times. And they're kind of gets this perception that, well we haven't had a fire and therefore we're safe and this is protected and we're okay. But you know, it really is just having an ignition source close to something that is combustible and just having that opportunity that something does ignite and has the opportunity to expand from there.

So just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean that it is, you know, fireproof for instance. And I think we just need to remember that.
Gene363 Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,814
The reconstruction contractors could learn a lot from the nuclear plant industry controls. There are stringent requirements for a fire watch during operations that incline ignition sources even down to the control of trash and debris in all work areas. Work areas are also tobacco free eliminating another ignition source, see * note below.

While the fire involved large beams the wood has been drying indoors for 900 plus years. Traditional paint and finishing materials are themselves quite flammable too.

* I once set a warehouse floor on fire with a cigarette butt. The floor was constructed of 6 inch planks that extended out side the building walls on one side to form a loading dock. The building had been built in the 1920s so the ends of the planks were cracked and checked from their exposer to sun and rain. I flipped a cigarette but through the open door intending it to land in the road on next to the dock. It's fell shot and rolled into a crack in one of the planks. With a little breeze to encourage the fire the planks were soon on fire. I used a pressurized water fire extinguisher to put out the fire. I got quite a safety education that day.
teedubbya Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Or they could give the billions needed to rebuild to charity rather than themselves and could build a simple place of worship.
victor809 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
Or they could give the billions needed to rebuild to charity rather than themselves and could build a simple place of worship.


Meh... as much as I dislike religion and Catholicism.... the art their huge amounts of ill-gotten wealth has funded has always had an elevating impact on humanity as a whole.

If I had to choose between the two, I would rather be able to know that structures like the Notre Dame exist in the world, than a bunch of poor people have been fed.

Of course, I don't follow a religion based on helping the least fortunate among us. But if they're willing to live with their hypocrisy, I'm not going to drag them on it.
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