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Civilian Casualties in US War on Terror
delta1 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
interesting read....small wonder why we have so many enemies in that part of the world...




https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/25/how-the-u-s-miscounted-the-dead-in-syria-raqqa-civilian-casualties-middle-east-isis-fight-islamic-state/?utm_source=PostUp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12853&utm_term=All%20PostUp%20Emails
borndead1 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,215
This has been going on for years. Especially since drone warfare became so popular.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Thanks Obama...
delta1 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
here is a quote from the article...

"The report also spotlights the Trump administration’s policy of easing the rules of engagement for the U.S. military, lifting some restrictions that were put in place to lessen civilian casualties.

“Having served on the [National Security Council] staff under both Obama and Trump, it was clear to me that when the new team came in, human rights concerns were relegated to a way-back-seat compared with the new commander in chief’s declared preference to ‘bomb the ****’ out of ISIS,” said Frances Brown, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who served as an NSC aide under both President Donald Trump and his predecessor, Barack Obama.

In early March, Trump revoked part of a 2016 executive order signed by Obama that mandated disclosing civilian casualties from U.S. airstrikes. The White House said at the time that it was getting rid of “superfluous reporting requirements, requirements that do not improve government transparency, but rather distract our intelligence professionals from their primary mission.”
teedubbya Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Thanks Obama...



yea he never should have invaded Iraq and bombed pearl harbor.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
delta1 wrote:
here is a quote from the article...

"The report also spotlights the Trump administration’s policy of easing the rules of engagement for the U.S. military, lifting some restrictions that were put in place to lessen civilian casualties.

“Having served on the [National Security Council] staff under both Obama and Trump, it was clear to me that when the new team came in, human rights concerns were relegated to a way-back-seat compared with the new commander in chief’s declared preference to ‘bomb the ****’ out of ISIS,” said Frances Brown, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who served as an NSC aide under both President Donald Trump and his predecessor, Barack Obama.

In early March, Trump revoked part of a 2016 executive order signed by Obama that mandated disclosing civilian casualties from U.S. airstrikes. The White House said at the time that it was getting rid of “superfluous reporting requirements, requirements that do not improve government transparency, but rather distract our intelligence professionals from their primary mission.”

So you're saying obama just acted in direct violation of laws requiring civilian casualties be reported? Or are you saying he made it law after he got caught killing a bunch of civilians? Cuz we didn't know anything about that stuff without assange... Assange reported it, not Obama...
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I know that Q is for delta.....

I also know GWB, bammy and trump all own this.

Billy Bob bombed an aspirin factory (not trying to be factual just repeating what I heard).

Ronaldo Magnus sold arms directly to the regime obama and the rest of the industrial world negotiated with.

But my guy is better.


I didn't leave daddy bush out on purpose. He had desert shield. I do happen to agree with how that was handled, especially after seeing what his son did.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
delta1 wrote:


“Having served on the [National Security Council] staff under both Obama and Trump, it was clear to me that when the new team came in, human rights concerns were relegated to a way-back-seat compared with the new commander in chief’s declared preference to ‘bomb the ****’ out of ISIS,” said Frances Brown, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who served as an NSC aide under both President Donald Trump and his predecessor, Barack Obama.

This is my favorite part... This self declared p*ssy admits that Obama didn't have the balls to wipe out Isis, yet killed far more innocent civilians with unmanned drones than all previous presidents combined... Then trump comes in, declares he's gonna wipe isis out no matter the cost, and that makes it clear to the self-declared p*ssy that trump doesn't care about human rights... At least not the way Obama did... You know... When he was killing all those civilians...
ZRX1200 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
Droner in Chief
teedubbya Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
When did we end the drone war? I just cant find the date.
victor809 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
teedubbya wrote:
When did we end the drone war? I just cant find the date.


Was the drone war a sequel to the clone war?
dstieger Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
If anyone is to blame, it's the Viet Cong.
teedubbya Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
victor809 wrote:
Was the drone war a sequel to the clone war?



Actually its the secret name we gave to jpotts debates
victor809 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
rip potts
teedubbya Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dstieger wrote:
If anyone is to blame, it's the Viet Cong.



leave charlie out of this. hes stuck in london, but his hair is perfect
victor809 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
rip charlie
delta1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
I recall many news reports of drone strikes killing suspected Al Queda terrorists, as well as stories of mistakes made, during the Obama administration...Obama didn't originate drone warfare...he continued a strategy developed during the Bush Administration, by two generals who remained on when he came to office...he pledged transparency in conducting drone warfare...under pressure? possibly...


at least Obama publicly stated the purpose was to fight terrorism without putting American troops in harms way...he was not intentionally targeting civilians, as you seem to believe...the number seems large because there were many more drone strikes during his 8 years than the few years under Bush, and 2 years under under Trump...

look at the numbers: 129 civilians killed by drones in Pakistan under Bush with about 280 militants killed; 157 civilians killed under Obama with about 2,500 militants killed...seems they got better at it as they got more experience...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan


Trump has basically said "I'm gonna bomb the **** out of them", and has preferred putting American pilots in harms way using conventional fighter planes using massive ordnance that is assured of causing many more civilian casualties...MOAB anyone? even Brian Williams creamed himself watching that video...

Trump ended Obama's transparency policy...


by the way: Bush's soldiers became Obama's soldiers and are Trump's soldiers...say what you want about the COC, they're OUR soldiers...WE own their victories, their defeats and their mistakes...
JadeRose Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
victor809 wrote:
rip potts


Poor potts.......he'll never know his apology was accepted
Burner02 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,879
delta1 wrote:
I recall many news reports of drone strikes killing suspected Al Queda terrorists, as well as stories of mistakes made, during the Obama administration...Obama didn't originate drone warfare...he continued a strategy developed during the Bush Administration, by two generals who remained on when he came to office...he pledged transparency in conducting drone warfare...under pressure? possibly...


at least Obama publicly stated the purpose was to fight terrorism without putting American troops in harms way...he was not intentionally targeting civilians, as you seem to believe...the number seems large because there were many more drone strikes during his 8 years than the few years under Bush, and 2 years under under Trump...

look at the numbers: 129 civilians killed by drones in Pakistan under Bush with about 280 militants killed; 157 civilians killed under Obama with about 2,500 militants killed...seems they got better at it as they got more experience...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan


Trump has basically said "I'm gonna bomb the **** out of them", and has preferred putting American pilots in harms way using conventional fighter planes using massive ordnance that is assured of causing many more civilian casualties...MOAB anyone? even Brian Williams creamed himself watching that video...

Trump ended Obama's transparency policy...


by the way: Bush's soldiers became Obama's soldiers and are Trump's soldiers...say what you want about the COC, they're OUR soldiers...WE own their victories, their defeats and their mistakes...



Al, have you ever studied U.S. military doctrine?

Or do you get all of your knowledge from the interweb and media outlets?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Victor gets all his news from Jezebel...
delta1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
damm you opel...you made me get Burner upset...


calm down, Burner....we're just talking out our azzes ...like guys do...and no, West Point did not accept my application...


I just like to pretty up Obama for all you King haters here....
opelmanta1900 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I was gonna go, but I ended up at Arizona state for a semester... and you know how that goes...
delta1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
full disclosure...much of my knowledge and opinions about drone warfare and the larger US War on Terrorism is from the book "Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield" by Jeremy Scahill...very well written and researched....his bibliography and footnotes indicate he didn't just pull stuff out of his azz...

two main take aways:

under GWB, and led by Gens McRaven and McChrystal, US military and US Intelligence, former competitors/adversaries and rivals for US budget dollars, who rarely played together in the sand-box, embarked on a new strategy, dubbed JSOC, to fight terrorism: un-manned aircraft deployed from safe-zones using local human intel sources, sometimes working in conjunction with US military and US Intel, conduct strikes in places we weren't allowed to go, like Pakistan...imagine if we sent soldiers there in our hunt for Al Queda and Bin Laden (remember he was still alive and he and his followers were the main targets since he was responsible for 9/11)...that would've been an act of war against a nuclear armed opponent...

expansion of anti-US sentiment in the ME, as we engaged in war in that part of the world...especially among some former pro-American Islamist leaders and specifically one American, Anwar al Awlaki...he was at one time a respected US Muslim who preached for peace and cooperation, but was later radicalized in the ME in response to perceived American excess in conducting war in the ME...we eventually tracked him down and took him out with a drone strike...under Obama's watch, we essentially executed an American citizen without due process...


ZRX1200 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,583
“Trump has basically said”

Would love to see the bomb drop totals.
delta1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
here is one time he did, say exactly that, among many ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWejiXvd-P8


and we won't see those numbers because he says he's not going to release any details about the drone war and civilians killed....

http://theconversation.com/trumps-executive-order-on-drone-strikes-sends-civilian-casualty-data-back-into-the-shadows-113165
Speyside Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Al, how many American soldiers are alive because of drone usage instead of troupe usage? That seems to be the obvious question that needs answered before anyone condemns the usage of drones. In all honesty my primary concern in the middle east is limiting American deaths while enforcing our military objectives as long as our military objectives are appropriate. I think killing terrorists we are at war with is an appropriate objective. While I imagine the book you are speaking of is accurate, just based on the title it is biased.
victor809 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Victor gets all his news from Jezebel...


Well duh....
How do you think I knew you were ranked as #15 in the 100 worst lovers in the US?

and people say jezebel doesn't have worthwhile information....
CelticBomber Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
My one issue with all this is it's the terrorists setting up in civilian area's. Mosques, hidden in the middle of densely populated area's where the civilians gladly act as human shields, hell they've even setup shop in U.N. controlled buildings. I've seen video footage where the civilians would stand near an Israeli checkpoint with stretchers, ambulances and news crews from many different WESTERN outlets and then fire a round at the Israeli outpost. The Israeli's knowing what was up would maybe fire a few half hearted rounds or not return fire at all and suddenly alarms would sound, Muslims would just fall to the ground, a blanket gets tossed over someone and they are loaded into the ambulances and our news crews (Thx CNN.. they used to at least try to make it look real) report on the evil attack by Israeli forces on Muslim civilians.

The bleeding hearts here go into a tizzy about our evil war on innocents(actually I should stop using that word and use non combatants) and what they call liberals today are suddenly on the side of the Palestinians! A flocking terrorist government and these young arsehole's support them! In our case it's an evil drone strike against non-com civilians. So we have to send ground troops into harms way instead. The best part is these arsehole's are trying to kill our troops and each other at the same time! Because of our own press our troops need to have like 3 rpg's fired at them before they can engage. Getting more of our guys killed and emboldening the enemy to setup in more densely populated area's. Forcing us to engage in civilian area's even more and getting more non combatants killed. Our own press has been dictating how we've been fighting this war, getting more people, ours and theirs, killed. I can't believe I'm typing this but I agree with Trump. The numbers reported are mostly pulled out of someone's ass. Every aid group, hospital, gov't, civilian oversight group, the U.N. and every freelancer reports different numbers. Our own press has given the terrorists the best PR that I doubt even the terrorists could have dreamed of. The press should never have been given the access they got to our troops from the beginning. Morale is just as important as a successful mission and that should mean that sometimes freedom of the press in a war zone takes a back seat to the successful prosecution of a War. Our pilots should be able to eject and walk back to base on the wings of hundreds of drones patrolling the skies.

At some point the non-comm population has to make a choice either fight if you really are against the extremists or get out of the way. They have a responsibility to themselves, their families and to their country (if they really want one). It's a bitch of a choice but it's the only way any of this becomes worth it. 1.8 Billion Muslims in the world, ballpark estimates say 20% are extremists in some form. That's around 360 million people. Every balsa wood kit from the local hobby shop that can carry a fire cracker should be in the air as we speak.... God it makes me so mad I could ramble for hours and hours... What people call a liberal today is either.a Fascist or Marxist and both are more condescending and racist. I remember seeing some fat antifa biotch yelling at some guy at the top of her dumb proud lungs "You probably hate Communists don't you!" in a YouTube video. I've watched them argue with old Russian men from the Soviet era about how great Communism is. I need to go punch a feminist, gender fluid, Fascist/Marxist, racist, in the mouth now to calm down.....fog
Speyside Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
You are off the mark. Most liberals are moderates who are slightly left of center. Most conservatives are moderates who lean slightly right of center. You are talking about the fringe. Their form of extremism is despicable. The same can be said about the alt right. We all know the difference between right and wrong. The extremes only know one right, theirs.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
victor809 wrote:
Well duh....
How do you think I knew you were ranked as #15 in the 100 worst lovers in the US?

and people say jezebel doesn't have worthwhile information....

Still... I'm ranked... Not talking
teedubbya Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
opelmanta1900 wrote:
Still... I'm rank... Not talking



true...true....




In some ways we have the same issues with the terrorists as we has with the viet cong. We haven't found a way to cope with it, which of course they know.

I prefer Trumps approach to this to Obamas. Transparency in this realm might do more harm than good. I don't mind covert when it comes to fighting the never ending battle to rid the place of cockroaches.
delta1 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
both Spey and CB make accurate points: the use of unmanned drones to avoid putting American soldiers at risk was the primary reason for the program; the terrorists we were going after hid within populated areas and often traveled with civilians in an attempt to avoid being targeted...

I consider myself among the anti-war segment on the left and am ambivalent about drone warfare. I like that we've been able to take out a large number of Al Queda and IS terrorists, all sworn to kill Americans, people who push a hateful ideology, suspected of training followers to build IEDs that did kill Americans...and did so without American lives lost...

that said, this method has led to an increase of avowed anti-American radical Islamist terrorists, primarily because civilians were killed, mistakes in identity were made, use of local/native snitches for intel on ID of terrorists was faulty, resulting in strikes against non-terrorists who had generations-long grudges against our native sources...

by engaging this way, it is argued that we've contributed to spreading this anti-American anti-Western radical Islamist ideology into other corners of the world...

you ask: why don't the innocent civilians turn on the terrorists or get out of the way?

why do you think there is an immigration problem all over the world? many are choosing to get out of dodge, and asking us for help


since we are no longer dependent on ME oil, why are we staying there...



teedubbya Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The drone war and the current admins rhetoric does remind me of 1984.. and I don't mean duran duran
RMAN4443 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Hungry Like the Wolf....Think
CelticBomber Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
Speyside wrote:
You are off the mark. Most liberals are moderates who are slightly left of center. Most conservatives are moderates who lean slightly right of center. You are talking about the fringe. Their form of extremism is despicable. The same can be said about the alt right. We all know the difference between right and wrong. The extremes only know one right, theirs.


I used to think that but I don't think it's as true as we'd both like anymore. Especially with the last two or three generations moving through High school into College and those about to graduate. The far left has taken over the campuses like never before. A school demanding a day without white people and the professors who tried to be the voice of reason were hung out to dry while their colleagues said not a word. The professors out their egging the students on are getting settlements of $240k and allowed to quietly resign. You may think the far left and alt right are just the fringes and if this were the late 1990's I'd agree. But, I think both sides are standing center stage now, they have the microphone and woe unto the person who offends them. This is what you get after years of lawyers telling companies to just settle false claims of racism and sexism and discrimination of all kinds because it's cheaper and who needs the hassle right? Well now it's seen as an entitlement. Offend me in anyway and it's lawsuit time. Unless you're a white guy with "privilege" that is. Then you can go screw because you're evil racist slave owners. Doesn't matter that at last count there are over 30 million black Africans living in chattel slavery and they are all owned by black and middle eastern Muslims. They still have open air slave markets running full tilt but I'm supposed to feel guilty? F. That noise.

I'm sorry but if they are the fringes how did we end up with a choice between Hillary and Trump? Cases of Transgenderism have risen by 4000% because now if your 6 year old boy says he's a girl you don't just give him time to at least reach puberty to either grow out of it or let him figure out he's gay. You are told to immediately start treating him as a girl and they now recommend hormones before puberty sets in. Watch this detransitioned transgender man give a speech at the Heritage Foundation.... The freaking Heritage Foundation was the only place that would give these Lesbian and Transgendered people a platform because they want to warn parents about how easily they can lose their parental rights if they don't follow the newest guidelines for handling a child claiming to be transgender. They can lose parental rights and prepubescent kids are getting hormone treatments courtesy of CPS.

https://youtu.be/bnP_WoeNuwA

This whole thing us scary as he'll!
delta1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
ZRX1200 wrote:
“Trump has basically said”

Would love to see the bomb drop totals.



here is an article that has data from Obama's terms and data from Trump's time in office....

https://warontherocks.com/2019/04/trump-cancels-drone-strike-civilian-casualty-report-does-it-matter/


Trump's administration appears to be launching drone strikes at a higher rate than Obama, but with more accuracy/lower percentage of civilian casualties...
Mr. Jones Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
Well " boys and girls"....

And all u SHEEPLE.....

OBAMA KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER HUMAN ON EARTH...BY DRONE ATTACK "DIRECT ORDERS"

HE-BARRY, ALSO GAVE LITERALLY DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF "GREENLIGHT ORDERS" TO KILL INNOCENT U.S. AMERICAN CITIZENS TO THE F.B.I.-S.S.G. DIVISION ....

I KNOW THAT BY REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE....

BUT THE DUUUPIT F.U.K.S. PICKED THE WRONG MUDDERFUUUUUCKER WHEN THEY ****KKKED WITH MR. JONES...IT HAS BACKFIRED ON THE ENTIRE BUNCH OF THEM....eSpEcIallY G.A.R.Y. O'CoNnoR SSG FIELD CHIEF
dstieger Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
delta1 wrote:
...

why do you think there is an immigration problem all over the world? many are choosing to get out of dodge, and asking us for help




And? I don't claim much knowledge about emigrants from Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan, however, it pizzes me off a bit how many are between 18 and 60. Except, maybe mothers with young children, they SHOULD be fighting and resisting for THEIR country....not running away to neighbors
delta1 wrote:
...

since we are no longer dependent on ME oil, why are we staying there...


MIC...oh, and I imagine Iran has something to do with it
dstieger Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
So...they're pizzed because the terrorists hide amongst civilians and we accidentally kill some civilians? The same terrorist groups you say they are fleeing from? Do they want ISIS out, or not?
teedubbya Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I take no issue with the 18 and 60 year old jews that fled Germany in the late thirties and think we should have accepted the St. Louis. I feel bad for those that waited too long or were turned away or refused. Shame.

As to the civilian thing, the human shield tactic is effective for sure.
delta1 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
just about all modern Americans are descended from people who chose to run away from perceived intolerant conditions in their home countries...
dstieger Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Haven't put a lot of deep thought into it yet, but my knee jerk reaction is that there's a pretty big difference between situation of European Jews around 1942 and Syrians unaffiliated, or opposed to ISIS around 2014
dstieger Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Is that the same as migrants seeking religious and economic freedoms and opportunities? Who are those American descendants of people from countries that allowed minority totalitarian regimes to take over and then use terrorism to destroy all opposition? Did they oppose what was going on in their home countries, or just walk away?
teedubbya Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
One of my good friends in college (and our goalie named Ali) escaped Iran through Turkey and ended up in Iowa. Great guy with fascinating stories. Some of which went from good hearted drinking stories to very serious very fast. Had he stayed in Iran he would have been killed. Most of the rest of his family was. Glad he made it and it was then not now. My guess is he would be dead if today's climate had existed in the US. Perhaps not. Pure conjecture.

There are large groups of people in multiple areas of the world that will be killed for being in the wrong place and being who they are. While nothing is exact their circumstances and fates are similar to the Jews in late 30s Germany. Syria is one example but there are some in other continents as well. Why did we turn the St. Louis away again?
frankj1 Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,219
dstieger wrote:
Haven't put a lot of deep thought into it yet, but my knee jerk reaction is that there's a pretty big difference between situation of European Jews around 1942 and Syrians unaffiliated, or opposed to ISIS around 2014

I don't know but have a feeling that the Syrians who are fleeing are not necessarily supporters of Assad or ISIS.
RMAN4443 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Didn't Obama draw a red line in the sand, and then erased it?Think
teedubbya Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
You forgot your point. You only bagged on Obama. Idgaf what Obama did wrong. There are lists.

opelmanta1900 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Are you claiming Iowa is better than death?
Speyside Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Prolly a coin flip, I've been to Iowa.
teedubbya Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I escaped Iowa but couldn’t get across the Missouri River. Send help quickly.
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