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izonfire Offline
#101 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 9:15 PM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,644
frankj1 wrote:
aren't olives black and green?


As are African American environmentalists
frankj1 Offline
#102 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 9:35 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
izonfire wrote:
As are African American environmentalists

LIKE
Speyside Offline
#103 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 10:53 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Kalimata Outrage!!!
teedubbya Offline
#104 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 11:22 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Pimiento chuckers
izonfire Offline
#105 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 11:28 PM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,644
Speyside wrote:
Kalimata Outrage!!!


YES!!!!!!!!!!!

We’ve been oppressed by that overprotective bitch for years. So much so, that it feels legendary...
_____

Logged back in specifically to address this. After I had decided to shut it down.
Don’t think for a moment that I appreciate you, your thoughts or humor though.
That would be presumptuous
_____

Ha ha! We’re gettin a herf in before I leave the state. That’s for damn sure.
And I will always be in the area. Occasionally Anxious
izonfire Offline
#106 Posted: Sun, Aug 4 2019, 11:34 PM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,644
teedubbya wrote:
Pimiento chuckers


Not at all.

Pimiento is just icing on the cake. Assuming that pimiento is icing and olives are cake...
Which makes no fucquin sense at all. Scratch that
opelmanta1900 Offline
#107 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 9:52 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
The more I look at this the more I’m convinced if it walks and talks like a white nationalist it just might be a white nationalist. I’d be more interested in separating myself from anyone parroting or supporting white nationalists than trying to separate this but bag from the white nationalists.

I’m going to go on a limb here. I think the white nationalists and their movement are sort of bad and I want nothing to do with them. Anywhere I overlap with their ideas is an area I probably need to re-examine. If some of my language mirrors theirs I may want to take a look at that too.

But we all have our own comfort levels.

Are you ok with us applying that to, say, Muslim terrorists? Like when ilhan omar refers to the worst terrorist attack in American history as some people doing some things, you've got no problem with us saying walks like a terrorist, talks like a terrorist, looks like a terrorist? Shes reading the same book, going to the same mosques, using a lot of the same language...

Same could go for evangelical Christians and those child molesting Catholics... Let's ignore the differences, lump em all together and burn em at the stake.... Easier than thinking...

Kinda disappointing tw... I expected you to be more open minded...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#108 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:02 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
victor809 wrote:
Not truly relevant for future attacks.
Each one of these guys is a special little snowflake...
To paraphrase Tolstoy and happy families, each of these mass murderers is crazy in his own way.

If we figure out that this one is unhappy about the environment and figures focusing on shooting immigrants is going to fix that, it doesn't help us prevent the next shooting. Because the next shooter will be unhappy about plummeting sales of tiki torches and think shooting Jews will fix that. And the one after will be unhappy about lack of coal jobs and think shooting the gays will fix that.

The commonality is very simple... They want to take their rage out on some group if "others". The details that make up their rage is irrelevant, because the next shooter (and there will be a lot of next shooters) will have different details.


You're literally saying that because each of these crazies has such a different set of screwed up ideologies that it's irrelevant what those ideologies are in terms of preventing future attacks...

And then out the other side of your mouth, you're adamant that he be labeled a white supremacist so that you can link him to the ideologies of past shooters and the current president...
teedubbya Offline
#109 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:32 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Opel yes. I think any person whose Venn diagram of thoughts and rhetoric overlaps with extremists groups of any kind need to take a closer look at things. So yes I would apply it to your examples. Fix it don’t accept it.

And no I’m not talking about breathing or if they like spray cheese. That’s just stupid.

teedubbya Offline
#110 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:34 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And no one is talking about burning at the stake. A bit extreme.
teedubbya Offline
#111 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:37 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
If someone is comfortable with their rhetoric and political philosophy lining up with white nationalists in many ways that’s their deal. And yes I will judge them based on it and draw the conclusions that while they may not be a dues paying white nationalist I don’t really want much to do with them.

Everyone’s comfort level is different. I’m simply talking about my own. I’ll say it outright if your values and rhetoric mirror those of white nationalists to any substantive degree and you are ok with that I want nothing to do with you. You can’t hide behind it or silently feed them. Ignorance is another issue.

So yea I’m not tolerant. Im ok with that.
teedubbya Offline
#112 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:53 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I’m also ok if anyone disagrees with me. We all need to be comfortable with ourselves.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#113 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:53 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
Opel yes. I think any person whose Venn diagram of thoughts and rhetoric overlaps with extremists groups of any kind need to take a closer look at things. So yes I would apply it to your examples. Fix it don’t accept it.

And no I’m not talking about breathing or if they like spray cheese. That’s just stupid.


Where do you think extremist groups come from? Other extremist groups? Or maybe groups that are far less extreme - rational even - but share similar ideologies?

My thinking has always been that radical Islamprobably came from a form of the religion that wasn't radical, hence the similarities in their ideology... Are you saying that's not how it happened or that we simply shouldn't care, lump them all together and treat them the same?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#114 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:55 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
I’m also ok if anyone disagrees with me. We all need to be comfortable with ourselves.

I'd be a lot more comfortable if I thought you were wearing pants while you typed that...
frankj1 Offline
#115 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:56 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I'd be a lot more comfortable if I thought you were wearing pants while you typed that...

did you post this or the foreskin op first?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#116 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:58 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
did you post this or the foreskin op first?

Tw's not the only one multi tasking this morning...
teedubbya Offline
#117 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:01 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I see what you are saying. I think you are saying just because a terrorist is Muslim and claim they carry out their deeds in the name of Islam, islam itself is not bad. I get that and it is thought provoking. And many in here do not agree. I find them wrong.

I also find it a false equivalence to an extent. I find Islam to be a legitimate religion that grew out of Christianity and Judaism and find that the terrorists pervert it. And I do expect true Muslims to denounce it and try to save the good name of their religion. Distance themselves.

I find the white nationalists situation to be near the opposite. Rather than perverting some legitimate movement or religion it’s the other way around. They didn’t grow out of something legitimate and their rhetoric is being co opted rather than vice versa.
Speyside Offline
#118 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:01 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
So here is my quandary. What legitamizes mass murder in these peoples minds? Is there a commonality to be found? If someone is a white supremicist fine, that is their right to be do. If someone is an Islamic fundamentalist fine, that is their right to be so. It is also my right to have nothing to do with and to despise them. But what is the underlying cause of their radicalization? Can we eliminate that?
teedubbya Offline
#119 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:06 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
The funny part is I think white nationalism only factors in to one of the shootings this week. It’s clearly not the be all end all or primary cause other than in El Paso.

But if your rhetoric mirrors that of white nationalists I’d spend more time changing it than rationalizing it.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#120 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:06 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
8ch is down in the aftermath of these shootings... They'll find a new dark corner I'm sure...

Would it be terrible to allow these people to spew their ignorance on Facebook and Twitter where everyone could see it for what it's worth?
teedubbya Offline
#121 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:09 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Maybe Chris Hanson can set up a house to meet them in.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#122 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:13 AM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
teedubbya wrote:
I see what you are saying. I think you are saying just because a terrorist is Muslim and claim they carry out their deeds in the name of Islam, islam itself is not bad. I get that and it is thought provoking. And many in here do not agree. I find them wrong.

I also find it a false equivalence to an extent. I find Islam to be a legitimate religion that grew out of Christianity and Judaism and find that the terrorists pervert it. And I do expect true Muslims to denounce it and try to save the good name of their religion.

I find the white nationalists situation to be near the opposite. Rather than perverting some legitimate movement or religion it’s the other way around. They didn’t grow out of something legitimate and their rhetoric is being co opted rather than vice versa.


It's tough for me to articulate my thoughts on stuff like this... I was specifically speaking to the danger of your method of lumping all people of similar beliefs together, specifically because of people like non child molesting branches of the Christian faith and non blowing themselves up Muslims...

My only purpose in bringing that up is to say I think there are slight differences between the white nationalist movement and people who are anti immigration...

I do not believe there are good folk in the white nationalist movement who are simply misinformed.... I do believe that there are some decent folk who hold anti immigration views that are simply ignorant, not necessarily hateful or racist...

I don't like seeing the 2 movements lumped together and pushed to 8ch... I think that makes enables more ignorant people to go unchallenged...
teedubbya Offline
#123 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:18 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I agree completely with your second to last paragraph.

That said white nationalists rhetoric is knowingly being used at the moment by anti immigration folks and our President. The white nationalists do not hide that they love it and the wink wink nudge nudge stuff is sick.

Rather than justify it change it and distance. You can be anti immigrant. The line is getting intentionally blurred.

teedubbya Offline
#124 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:20 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Some of it with Trump May have even been ignorant. But when called on it to double down and continue, even though it’s just what he does, is unacceptable for a President and lumps the two groups.
teedubbya Offline
#125 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:22 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Trump wants white nationalists support. I disagreed with W but by god he had integrity. Trump not so much.
teedubbya Offline
#126 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:26 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Oh I almost forgot to add

But antifa, the press hypnotized me and Hillary and stuff.
teedubbya Offline
#127 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 11:29 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Kidding aside I get what you are saying Opel and you do make some good points.
delta1 Offline
#128 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 12:58 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
well ....Trump has condemned white supremacists, racism and mass murderers...is this another "very fine people...on both sides" moment?

he has undermined his ability to be perceived as Presidential because of his past un-Presidential behavior...

like the abusive spouse who verbally berates the partner for a couple of years, then apologizes and repudiates all the insults as the spouse is walking out the door...which one is genuine?
delta1 Offline
#129 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 12:59 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
does "background checks for gun purchases" have anything to do with "immigration reform"?
dstieger Offline
#130 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:07 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Speyside wrote:
So here is my quandary. What legitamizes mass murder in these peoples minds?


And, speycifically, what legitimizes it in this guy's mind?

He's not stupid. While there's some real problems with consistency, message and facts....the writing is mostly coherent and passable English. So, I sort of get a feel for what's going on in the guy's head...but I can't help but think that there's a pretty big disconnect between the thoughts and the action. I might look at it a little different if he were to join in some coalition or nationalist group with a strategic vision. But, he's smart enough to have known that killing some Mexicans was not likely to get this country on the track that he wants. So, while he might have meant much of what he wrote, I don't think its necessarily so directly connected to his actions Saturday.
Not only that, I don't believe that even a supremacist would be confident enough to shoot up a crowded Walmart confident that he'd only kill Hispanics.
And, didn't he surrender pretty easily?....even though he wrote about how that could not be considered a potential outcome....changed his mind? not going to overanalyze any more ....I just want to keep in my mind the disconnects before citing any of it for any reason
DrafterX Offline
#131 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:08 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
It will keep illegals from buying guns... Mellow
DrafterX Offline
#132 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:09 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
But I heard Biden wants to give them all shotguns.. Mellow
dstieger Offline
#133 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:
if I had to guess? It's a fairly poor area from what I understand and probably not as many armed patrons as would be normal in other areas of texas...
..



Clearly, there's a personal protection inequity in East Texas. How can we live with ourselves unless we provide the means to practice Second Amendment rights to all persons, regardless of their ability to pay. Free handguns for all!
The safety of our poorest depends on it.
dstieger Offline
#134 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:12 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:


Would it be terrible to allow these people to spew their ignorance on Facebook and Twitter where everyone could see it for what it's worth?



IIRC, that's what Frank said
delta1 Offline
#135 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:13 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
dstieger wrote:
And, speycifically, what legitimizes it in this guy's mind?

He's not stupid. While there's some real problems with consistency, message and facts....the writing is mostly coherent and passable English. So, I sort of get a feel for what's going on in the guy's head...but I can't help but think that there's a pretty big disconnect between the thoughts and the action. I might look at it a little different if he were to join in some coalition or nationalist group with a strategic vision. But, he's smart enough to have known that killing some Mexicans was not likely to get this country on the track that he wants. So, while he might have meant much of what he wrote, I don't think its necessarily so directly connected to his actions Saturday.
Not only that, I don't believe that even a supremacist would be confident enough to shoot up a crowded Walmart confident that he'd only kill Hispanics.
And, didn't he surrender pretty easily?....even though he wrote about how that could not be considered a potential outcome....changed his mind? not going to overanalyze any more ....I just want to keep in my mind the disconnects before citing any of it for any reason



brilliant
opelmanta1900 Offline
#136 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:15 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
DrafterX wrote:
It will keep illegals from buying guns... Mellow

...legally...
delta1 Offline
#137 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:18 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
we shouldn't read the written crap that these loons write, nor should we publish it...it taps into their need for attention, and copycats will see that their writings have been published to millions of people in various media, further validating this MO as a way to gain notoriety by blasting a large number of innocent people so their self-important written thoughts could be exposed to the world....
dstieger Offline
#138 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 1:23 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
DrafterX wrote:
But I heard Biden wants to give them all shotguns.. Mellow


Wow....didn't read this before I wrote the next post....looks like its time to give Biden some new consideration....great minds and all that
opelmanta1900 Offline
#139 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 2:57 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
delta1 wrote:
we shouldn't read the written crap that these loons write, nor should we publish it...it taps into their need for attention, and copycats will see that their writings have been published to millions of people in various media, further validating this MO as a way to gain notoriety by blasting a large number of innocent people so their self-important written thoughts could be exposed to the world....


How's that been working out for us? We've been trying the "don't read this stuff" approach for a long time now... How do you feel about the results?

Personally, not really confident in the "ignore it and it'll go away" approach - the "it" in that sentence being the ideology of these perpetrators... Ignoring it is no form of deterrent... Publicly destroying it with logic might be...
Speyside Offline
#140 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 3:48 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I think I might call them predators instead of perpetrators. I would like to think mental health intervention is an answer, but I doubt it is in the majority of the killings.
frankj1 Offline
#141 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 5:15 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
dstieger wrote:
Clearly, there's a personal protection inequity in East Texas. How can we live with ourselves unless we provide the means to practice Second Amendment rights to all persons, regardless of their ability to pay. Free handguns for all!
The safety of our poorest depends on it.

I had similar thoughts...

it's Texas dammit! I bought into the fact that a guy like this would get blasted to pieces.
frankj1 Offline
#142 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
Speyside wrote:
I think I might call them predators instead of perpetrators. I would like to think mental health intervention is an answer, but I doubt it is in the majority of the killings.

will never get funded.
frankj1 Offline
#143 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
dstieger wrote:
IIRC, that's what Frank said

yup
delta1 Offline
#144 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 6:19 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,778
opelmanta1900 wrote:
How's that been working out for us? We've been trying the "don't read this stuff" approach for a long time now... How do you feel about the results?

Personally, not really confident in the "ignore it and it'll go away" approach - the "it" in that sentence being the ideology of these perpetrators... Ignoring it is no form of deterrent... Publicly destroying it with logic might be...

results have not been great...but if you wanna read the rantings of a madman, feel free...I didn't bother reading your OP...

there's been an effort to try to "profile" pricks like this for decades, studying mass murderers who were imprisoned...no commonalities that could be reliable...besides, how would we treat those who fit the "profile"?

ideology is a broad concept...barring a major discovery in predictive abilities as depicted in Minority Report, I wouldn't give any credence to that approach, and even then, I'd be skeptical...too many people may share some similar beliefs but would never entertain an idea about taking another human life...

maybe an AI algorithm that tracks all extreme websites for people posting about wanting to kill people and then providing specific details about their plans and statements about imminence?

although it does seem like many mass killers are young, male whites who may affiliate with white supremacist groups, are we gonna track them all?

I'd have more confidence to conduct a study in a manner that treats gun violence/mass murder as a major public health threat...that's been shot down by the NRA and most con gun owners who don't want those questions answered...
frankj1 Offline
#145 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 8:00 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
despite posting about gun control above a certain level (as yet discussed) in another thread, I don't see it or much else as a totally preventive action...

perhaps this is an exaggerated era in our history when we learn that there is a risk to freedom.


this is my post from the threepeat thread:
gun ownership is legal, protected, and here to stay...
and I am a liberal who believes in that right.

I am also a (somewhat) normal person struggling to understand why some limitations on guns of mass destruction can not be the subject of gun control legislation discussions.

guns to protect life, family and property, or for sport, or for hunting do not necessarily have to include guns that can kill dozens of people in seconds. I don't have a plan on what should be limited, but the guns being used to massacre many by lunatics is a good place for the conversation to start.
ZRX1200 Offline
#146 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:15 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,582
No gun law has ever saved a life.
izonfire Offline
#147 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:28 PM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,644
So, should I cancel my dinner with the Nazis?
ZRX1200 Offline
#148 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:34 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,582
Make it a bier summit mein freund
KingoftheCove Offline
#149 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,631
frankj1 wrote:
despite posting about gun control above a certain level (as yet discussed) in another thread, I don't see it or much else as a totally preventive action...

perhaps this is an exaggerated era in our history when we learn that there is a risk to freedom.


this is my post from the threepeat thread:
gun ownership is legal, protected, and here to stay...
and I am a liberal who believes in that right.

I am also a (somewhat) normal person struggling to understand why some limitations on guns of mass destruction can not be the subject of gun control legislation discussions.

guns to protect life, family and property, or for sport, or for hunting do not necessarily have to include guns that can kill dozens of people in seconds. I don't have a plan on what should be limited, but the guns being used to massacre many by lunatics is a good place for the conversation to start.


I’m not a liberal, not a conservative either I suppose, but I feel somewhat the same as you here Frankie.
But there’s a problem..............or the potential for a problem..............the slippery slope phenomena.
Once certain rifles get banned, there will be a two pronged effect.
One the one side, there will be those that want to expand the confiscation of certain firearms while at the same time others will oppose it vigorously, opening up black markets, a new market for modified rifles which technically are still “legal” which the owner can then easily modify, etc.

I think the ultimate net effect will be zero...........maybe less than zero...
I just don’t think it’s worth the effort.
What’s happening is fuqin horrible.............we need to look at other solutions that might have a chance.
izonfire Offline
#150 Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2019, 10:41 PM EST
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,644
Vielleicht ein Ausflug in die Schießstände
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