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tailgater Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 8:38 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
As a non-gun owning supporter of the 2nd amendment, I don't have a horse in this race.

I'm against any type of knee-jerk legislation, almost without exception.
I agree with many of the NRA talking points, including the slippery-slope argument which really can't be ignored.
But it would be great to actually have the proverbial "common sense" laws to help stymie the fear that's brewing from tragic events and ratings-driven coverage.

Hell, Times Square was in near-lockdown because a motorcycle backfired yesterday.


So maybe it's time for Congress to pass some legislation.
Maybe the so called Red Flag bill can indeed be effective.
Not in stopping the crazies from procuring guns. No sir. If that were actually possible these types of bills would already be law.
But if congress can pass something through both the house and senate, and if the president can sign it into law, that would speak volumes for our desire to unite the country.

This is a give and take. Neither side is innocent. But right now it's the POTUS and his GOP counterparts that own the lions share of the blame if we can't do this.

I'm not talking about the mythical "ban assault weapons" BS.
But increasing background checks does no one harm. If it's inconvenient for you to buy the new weapon du juor then too bad. Gun ownership should be a responsible decision, and if a few forms require your John Hancock prior to delivery then so be it.

Trump talks about mental health? Well a background check might discover this type of issue before they purchase the fourth clip for their glock.

Deal with it.
And help reunite the country by hugging it out in DC.
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 8:43 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
Some scary stuff being talked about... gun confiscation if someone thinks you're gonna hurt someone.. this can be good but it can be bad.. this would be a good time to send your local judge a 12 pack of Bud...

And Biden has said he's going after assault weapons...

Mellow
Gene363 Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 8:53 AM EST
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,787
No, absolutely no more BS gun legislation.

As for Biden and others taking about another scary rifle bad, the last one had ZERO effect.
Speyside Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 9:30 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I see assault rifles as a good form of home and family protection. Ban the crazies from getting them in their hands as much as legally possible. Much more complete background checks before putting a gun in some ones hands. Make the illegal sale of guns a death penalty crime. And so on. Don't punish law abiding citizens.
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 9:40 AM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
tailgater wrote:

But if congress can pass something through both the house and senate, and if the president can sign it into law, that would speak volumes for our desire to unite the country.



Who are you and what have you done with Tail?



But, seriously....I agree with the OP. As I have said in other posts, I fully support legislation that would limit magazines, strengthen background checks and maybe some sort of red flag stuff.

That last seems more tricky to me than it looks on the surface. For one, it requires very localized enforcement, so maybe it doesn't belong as federal legislation...IDK. But as someone always in the gray, I have trouble conceptualizing how we address mental health....and mental health with regards to tools to do harm. The mental health spectrum just seems pretty fluid, if not arbitrary...even within an individual. It would be nearly impossible to apply pure objectivity to an assessment, I'd think. Even the motives of the one's calling attention and/or assessing will affect the judgement. And...if it is determined that 'someone shouldn't have a gun'...what does that accomplish for the individual? Does it come with some sort of mandated 'treatment'? Do we take aware their scissors, too? How do we prevent bs narking? If I call the white coat guys to say "TW is nucking futz; take away his guns", am I held accountable if he finds (and pays off?) some doc that says he's normal?
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 10:00 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I run with scissors sometimes.. just cause I can... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 10:18 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I have nothing against assault rifles (they are fun) but really don't think they are a good form of home and family protection. It's just an opinion though. I prefer pistol rounds for that purpose just to avoid... wait for it.... over penetration. Again that's just an opinion .... biden is right about shotguns too.

I do like an SBR type handgun in pistol calibers however. Don't care about the stupid designations. My appreciation of this setup is fairly new though. Much more accurate than my pistol however I've had so many rounds through my pistol I'd probably grab it first just because I trust it's reliability. I may get there with the scorpion some day.


All that aside I also run with scissors... by the pool...drunk... right after a full meal
deadeyedick Offline
#8 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 10:46 AM EST
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,056
Something will get passed. It will be mostly feel good legislation and might even save a life or two. We will be having this same conversation years from now. The weapon of choice can change quickly for those intent on doing damage.
Buckwheat Offline
#9 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 10:51 AM EST
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
teedubbya wrote:
I have nothing against assault rifles (they are fun) but really don't think they are a good form of home and family protection. It's just an opinion though. I prefer pistol rounds for that purpose just to avoid... wait for it.... over penetration. Again that's just an opinion .... biden is right about shotguns too.

I do like an SBR type handgun in pistol calibers however. Don't care about the stupid designations. My appreciation of this setup is fairly new though. Much more accurate than my pistol however I've had so many rounds through my pistol I'd probably grab it first just because I trust it's reliability. I may get there with the scorpion some day.


All that aside I also run with scissors... by the pool...drunk... right after a full meal



I would love to own and shoot a 9 mm Mauser C96 "Red 9" Broomhandle pistol along with a 9mm carbine rifle. Only have to worry about one type of ammo. fog
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 10:53 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
Tail, there’s 20k laws. And still we’re here. Virtue signaling legislation has no positive other than showing movement towards banning all guns which is the goal. Make a case that law “——“ will DIRECTLY CAUSE “_____”.

But this isn’t how we do things. We deify something so that it cannot be assailed, and then run with a cause claiming to protect that thing/cause.

Signature???? Yeah tell me how you legally buy a gun without one......there is no loophole. I can’t even legally LOAN a hunting rifle for a relative to use without a $75 TRANSFER INTO THEIR POSSESSION in Oregon. When people are LYING about their end game goals and using dishonest tactics there isn’t a reasonable conversation to have. There is no cold grown up free thinking, there is only emotional knee jerking from idiots and manipulation from non idiots.

I find it very uncouth to be having these conversations about a right that shall not be infringed, so close to psychopath criminals perpetrating murder.

Because just like modern politics we never fix a cause, we treat a symptom and always at the cost of freedom of those who aren’t criminals. This is EXACTLY why so many are upset. Furthering THIS will move us further from a passive to an active civil war.
teedubbya Offline
#11 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 11:03 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Buckwheat wrote:
I would love to own and shoot a 9 mm Mauser C96 "Red 9" Broomhandle pistol along with a 9mm carbine rifle. Only have to worry about one type of ammo. fog



That actually sounds fun. I used the same logic pairing a cz 75b and a scorpion w/brace. All 9mm makes range time fun and less expensive
Speyside Offline
#12 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 11:20 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
My home protection is an assault shotgun. Definatly will stop invaders.
Speyside Offline
#13 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 11:21 AM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Well, that and my Chihuahua.
ZRX1200 Offline
#14 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 11:24 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
Hope you’re not using buckshot or slugs....
steve02 Offline
#15 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:09 PM EST
Joined: 05-20-2004
Posts: 954
There’s a huge fundamental problem with more gun control laws. Only law abiding citizens follow laws. Does anyone think that someone was going to shoot up a place and then didn’t because it might break a gun law? Isn’t murder already illegal? Isn’t assault with a deadly weapon already illegal?
Krazeehorse Offline
#16 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:14 PM EST
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
deadeyedick wrote:
Something will get passed. It will be mostly feel good legislation and might even save a life or two. We will be having this same conversation years from now. The weapon of choice can change quickly for those intent on doing damage.


Nailed it. If they don't have a gun they will drive their car into a crowd. It's tough to defend against crazy.
teedubbya Offline
#17 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:15 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
steve02 wrote:
There’s a huge fundamental problem with more gun control laws. Only law abiding citizens follow laws. Does anyone think that someone was going to shoot up a place and then didn’t because it might break a gun law? Isn’t murder already illegal? Isn’t assault with a deadly weapon already illegal?



While I agree then we shouldn't have any laws because that is true across the board. And since locks only keep honest people honest there is no need for locks etc. I'm not for wild gun laws but letting perfect be the enemy of good enough is being used as a political tool at this point.
delta1 Offline
#18 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:16 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
me----->Big Hug<-------tail

ThumpUp ThumpUp
joeyjoejoejr314 Offline
#19 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 06-21-2019
Posts: 11
tailgater wrote:


I'm against any type of knee-jerk legislation, almost without exception.





how many weeks in between mass shootings would be acceptable to pass legislation? Not sure we have more than a few weeks
gummy jones Offline
#20 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 12:33 PM EST
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
we are a depraved species in the middle of a moral crisis
Speyside Offline
#21 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:11 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Z, no I'm not. Why?
teedubbya Offline
#22 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:13 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
its always about penetration with Z
Speyside Offline
#23 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:14 PM EST
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Remmington reduced recoil 8 pellet.
DrafterX Offline
#24 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:25 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I'm not depraved... Not talking
RMAN4443 Offline
#25 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:35 PM EST
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
DrafterX wrote:
I'm not depraved... Not talking

maybe just a little...Anxious
teedubbya Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:36 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
or a lot.. ive been in his head... I know
dstieger Offline
#27 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 1:37 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
DrafterX wrote:
I'm not depraved... Not talking



Prolly not...pretty sure you'd have to have been praved at some point prior
MACS Offline
#28 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 2:42 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
Put the perpetrators of these crimes on live tv... and put them to death by firing squad. No head shots.

It will stop.

But no, we'll sentence them to life without parole and pay for them to live their lives.
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
No way man... Not talking

TW says it hurt the first few times... Mellow
dstieger Offline
#30 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Contracted, private prison workers' lives matter, too.
ZRX1200 Offline
#31 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:26 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
Good choice Spey.....

TW sometimes it’s secondary penetration
ZRX1200 Offline
#32 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:27 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
Good choice Spey.....

TW sometimes it’s secondary penetration
tailgater Offline
#33 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I agree that there are already too many laws that aren't enforced.
And a background check might even be redundant in most areas.

But that's even more reason for the GOP to acquiesce. There is nothing truly lost, and so much that can be gained.

Settle things down, and then discuss the problem with open minds from both sides.
DrafterX Offline
#34 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:40 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
There are no open minds... everybody wants to be the somebody that forced Trump into a corner and made him do something... Mellow
tailgater Offline
#35 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:42 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
DrafterX wrote:
There are no open minds... everybody wants to be the somebody that forced Trump into a corner and made him do something... Mellow


Sounds like prison sex.

Or a post rugby celebration.
ZRX1200 Offline
#36 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:49 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
No it’s not more reason to acquiesce because the far left is changing the goal posts in a game of triangulation......when you play along with childish reactionaryism you’re setting precedent to KEEP DOING IT. That’s precisely the point......the public is being conditioned into acquiescence do you really not see that forest through the trees???

You’re advocating giving a child a candy bar for misbehavior.
CelticBomber Offline
#37 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 3:59 PM EST
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
We force people to see Psychiatrists for things like court and I also believe for getting on many government programs if you're claiming some sort of mental issue like depression also with cops who've been in a life or death situation. We do it for all kinds of reasons like I had to see one as part of getting my clearance (Special Category above Top Secret) in the Air Force. I could see things and enter vault's not even my commander had clearance for. It was super cool:-) I have no problem with doing the same thing with gun owners or making them report if anyone living in their home has mental issue's.

But, going after so called "Assault" weapons won't do a thing. Most gun deaths are caused by hand guns and you can get magazine's that hold just as many as an assault rifle. It's one pull of the trigger for one bullet with both hand guns and assault rifle's. It's easier to conceal more hand guns on you than an assault rifle. I "think" not actually sure that the only real difference is the range you can get with certain type's of ammunition for assault rifle's mixed with the length of their barrel. This whole argument is one big distraction so that people on both sides of the aisle can point at each other as they blame each other for nothing getting done. This is not a gun issue. It's a mental health issue and an issue of rhetoric getting out of hand on both sides which is mostly lies designed to scare or embolden the general population.A Congressman or Senator saying during an interview that at least with hand guns you have to pull the trigger for each bullet, implying that that's not the case for assault weapons and no one, on either side, bothers to say "Sorry but that's just not true!". This guy gets a say in the new laws that will try to be bulldozed through. That's what scares me.
ZRX1200 Offline
#38 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 4:05 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
Clearance for a job is not the same as exercising a constitutional right.
Mr. Jones Offline
#39 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 4:21 PM EST
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,400
I say pass a FEDERAL law that REQUIRES ALL POLICE TO SHOOT AND KILL A.L.L. ACTIVE SHOOTERS...P.E.R.I.O.D.

TAKE NO PRISONERS, they do not deserve a trial or
years on the taxpayerS dime in jail or getting free legal protection by pro bono appointed lawyers.

Background checks are fine already accept for the gun show loophole...this will kill all " flea mkt" purchases of long guns which really sucks in my opinion...guns at flea mkt in Pennsylvania has been almost a birthright and almost zero assault rifles show up there...it is always .22's , shotguns or deer rifles...

The Red Flag law is way to easy in some states allready...

Make it a federal felony to report anyone falsely or maliciously PUNISHABLE with a first degree FELONY CHARGE AND A 10 YEAR MINIMUM SENTENCE these kind of incorrect and false accusations...NIP THAT CRAP IN THE BUD before it turns into anonymous crime tip phone calls being 100% believed by the cops without DUE PROCESS.
tailgater Offline
#40 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 5:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
ZRX1200 wrote:
No it’s not more reason to acquiesce because the far left is changing the goal posts in a game of triangulation......when you play along with childish reactionaryism you’re setting precedent to KEEP DOING IT. That’s precisely the point......the public is being conditioned into acquiescence do you really not see that forest through the trees???

You’re advocating giving a child a candy bar for misbehavior.


I hear ya, man.
But if an olive branch can be passed to appease the masses, and it doesn't REALLY make things more restrictive but simply defines laws that probably already exist, then what is lost?

There are times that a candy bar is the right choice.
delta1 Offline
#41 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 5:58 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
sure it's a mental health issue...but having readily accessible guns that can fire a hundred rounds a minute only makes the killer nut more deadly...
MACS Offline
#42 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 6:19 PM EST
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,729
delta1 wrote:
sure it's a mental health issue...but having readily accessible guns that can fire a hundred rounds a minute only makes the killer nut more deadly...


Name me a gun that can be purchased by a citizen that fires 100 rds a minute?

*Cue the Jeopardy music*

Aaaaaand... as Celtic Bomber already stated, rifles aren't used in the majority of these cases. Handguns kill more than any other firearm and are easily concealable.
teedubbya Offline
#43 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 6:23 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I could maybe do 50 with no accuracy.... maybe
delta1 Offline
#44 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 6:29 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
https://www.quora.com/How-many-rounds-per-minute-does-an-AR-15-fire


some gun experts say the AR-15 can fire from 60 aimed shots up to 400 unaimed rounds per minute...bump stocks and a massive target field proved you don't need to aim...just point and shoot....
teedubbya Offline
#45 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 6:36 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I could see 60. Maybe. 400? Lol. No expert says that. Sorry quora.
CelticBomber Offline
#46 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 6:45 PM EST
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
ZRX1200 wrote:
Clearance for a job is not the same as exercising a constitutional right.


The thing about amendments is that they are amendments. They can change. Creating a law to require a psychiatric exam and paperwork clearing you is no different than having to ask the local chief of police for his signature and a background check before you can purchase a gun. We can't do anything about the guns out there now but a mental health check for the sale of new guns wouldn't be a bad thing as far as I can see. But, I know people will scream it would be the beginning of the end for the 2nd Amendment as it's written now. It started with the Gun control act of 1934. The first set of major gun legislation spurred on by idea that all gangsters were shooting up the place with tommy guns. The truth was that idea was in the public's mind mostly due to Hollywood movies. It was enacted because of a misinformed general public and misinformed government officials. Therefore it was a bunch of poorly written laws that created a tax forced upon legal gun owners. Illegal gun owners don't care about paying their taxes. So I understand pro gun people not wanting more restrictions because of how poorly thought out they were last time. But we have to do something and gun owners are going to have to give a little. I'd rather see a psych exam enforced instead of a ban.
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 7:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,534
I don't expect laws to affect my purchase ability... but I'm gonna go spend a few hundred bucks on ammo anyways... maybe another assault weapon... Think
delta1 Offline
#48 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 7:17 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,772
teedubbya wrote:
I could see 60. Maybe. 400? Lol. No expert says that. Sorry quora.


what if you used a bump stock? 400 is possible...

or trained yourself to pull the trigger faster, you could get to 100 with a lg cap mag
teedubbya Offline
#49 Posted: Wed, Aug 7 2019, 11:35 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
No way 400. Nope.

100 not likely. Maybe 60
ZRX1200 Offline
#50 Posted: Thu, Aug 8 2019, 12:47 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,560
I could easily fire 100 rounds from my pistol aimed in a minute.....BUT that’s assuming no malfunctions or mag change errors. Would it be easier from a wrongly referred to “assault” rifle? Slightly. But guess what, mag capacity is a SLIGHT advantage, the ease of aiming a rifle is a bigger advantage. Guess what 2.0......my tube feed .22LR holds 15 rounds and I can hold the trigger depressed and cowboy fire with the pump and shoot faster than a scary assault rifle. I can fire 3-4 rounds per minute from a Hawkins .54 black powder rifle FYI.
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