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Lefties leading candidate
fishinguitarman Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Nobody has even a small chance to beat Trump 2020!

Who’s the favorite at this point?🤮
Mr. Jones Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,421
TRUMP WILL BEAT ANYBODY them Democrats have currently...
The only way for the Democratic party to win is to convict of an actual crime... impeachment will do nothing...
Just like bill Clinton's witch Hunt **** trial perjury...
That was a VERY VERY EXPENSIVE HOAX AND
WITCH HUNT...
rfenst Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,302
Fox News says 49% want Trump impeached and removed. Fox News also reports that Biden beats Trump heads-up by 12 points, but he's not even in the lead for the Democratic nomination.
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
They're just kiddin... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Biden's a child molester... he's literally the worst candidate the dems could've chosen...

Also, polls mean next to nothing... who answers those things? You get a phone call from a strange number or get approached in a parking lot by a guy with ponytail and a clipboard - can you imagine the type of person it takes to actually talk to that guy? to answer his questions about impeachment and the president?

right out the gate I can give you a guarantee that 50% of those who answered were screwing around... and there's a good chance most the other 50% are lying... lots of pressure from libs to either be on their side or suffer the consequences...

ya know what, I'm voting for trump next election... **** it...

delta1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
to make that vote actually count, you should move to another state and establish residency before the deadline...
fishinguitarman Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Yup undisputed claims of his pedophilia
Whistlebritches Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
I'm voting for Elizabeth Warren...…...I've always wanted a Native American President
frankj1 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
How
ZRX1200 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
^ I see what you did there Kemosabi
Whistlebritches Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
ZRX1200 wrote:
^ I see what you did there Kemosabi



Stop messing with my squaw Tiny Totem Pole
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
and Tonto means stupid in Spanish!
opelmanta1900 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
means that in canada too...
Whistlebritches Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,128
opelmanta1900 wrote:
means that in canada too...



I thought stupid in Canadian was Trudeau
fishinguitarman Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Is he still even alive?
Krazeehorse Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
I'm sticking with Michelle.
ZRX1200 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
They’re looking for 92 trillion in expansion over the existing budget.

But Cheeto is crazy.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Seems crazy, especially since countries with healthcare spend half what we spend per person...and have longer life expectancy.
Krazeehorse Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
frankj1 wrote:
Seems crazy, especially since countries with healthcare spend half what we spend per person...and have longer life expectancy.

How do malpractice suits stack up in those countries? I'm guessing there are much less frivolous lawsuits in those places which add to the cost of doing business. Also while I don't think single payer is the answer but it looks like half the people at my doctors office are paper shufflers. And obviously those expenses have to be passed on to the consumer.
ZRX1200 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
I’m sure they lead the world in innovation as well.
frankj1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Krazeehorse wrote:
How do malpractice suits stack up in those countries? I'm guessing there are much less frivolous lawsuits in those places which add to the cost of doing business. Also while I don't think single payer is the answer but it looks like half the people at my doctors office are paper shufflers. And obviously those expenses have to be passed on to the consumer.

I'm not dead set on any side at this point, but what you point out are more factors as well.
frankj1 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
ZRX1200 wrote:
I’m sure they lead the world in innovation as well.

I think tw's surgery was developed in France.
frankj1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
not sure what Insurance companies have to do with innovation in medicine either...other than making it out of the reach of most.
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
so I read this Opinion Piece in The Boston Globe before Warren foisted her plan to pay for hers, and though I am certain I will learn of many flaws here I am equally certain there's a lot of solid points being made...at least enough to discuss, not to cave in, but to look at the natural fears we capitalists have and a possible consideration of an upside to bettering a money draining runaway system we now have...
again, I'm not married to what is below, but at least it got me thinking without the dogma handicapping both sides.


Opinion: Paying for ‘Medicare for all’? No problem
Wealthy countries that have universal coverage spend far less on healthcare than the United States and get better health outcomes. 
(Joe Raedle / Getty Images)
By STEPHEN MARKS
OCT. 24, 2019
 
3 AM
Democratic presidential candidates Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have struggled to explain how they would pay for “Medicare for all.”

This is puzzling. A single-payer approach like Medicare for all can reduce overall health spending. Other wealthy countries that have universal coverage spend far less on healthcare than the United States  as a share of their gross domestic product. A lack of money is not the problem. That’s why it should not be difficult to devise a way to pay for Medicare for all to benefit the vast majority of us, particularly low- and middle-income earners.

In fact, Canada has such a system, which should cast doubt on all the naysayers who claim that it is impossible or ruinous. Canada, with a single-payer system, spends half of what we do on healthcare and  gets better results. Britain, France, Australia and Japan, all with universal healthcare, also  spend less than half of what we spend per capita and get better results.

Medicare for all is widely expected to cost about $3 trillion a year. The government — through Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and various other programs — already pays  more than $1.5 trillion of this healthcare bill. Private insurance and out-of-pocket costs account for another roughly $1.5 trillion. Going to Medicare for all would increase the budget of the government by about $1.5 trillion a year.
Here are some ideas on how to fund it:

End the cap on payroll taxes and apply payroll taxes to all income, including interest and capital gains. This will not have a significant effect on anyone whose income is less than $132,900, the current cap, and will raise about $1.5 trillion. Those making somewhat above the current cap will end up paying a bit more, but they will not have to pay health insurance premiums or out-of-pocket medical expenses and will come out ahead.

Large employers now pay on average  $6,000 per employee for individual health insurance and $14,000 per employee for family health insurance. Many smaller employers pay similar rates, as do the self-employed. Let’s suppose that we tax all employers $5,000 per year per employee and relieve them of the burden of providing employee insurance. Most come out way ahead. This raises about $650 billion.

Elizabeth Warren’s proposal of a 2% wealth tax on wealth over $50 million would raise another  $250 billion a year. Her proposed corporate tax on off-shore earnings would raise  $100 billion a year by requiring companies like Amazon to pay taxes on their worldwide income.

Finally, if Canada, spending less than half of U.S. expenditures on healthcare, has better health outcomes, that suggests there are savings to be had. Let’s be conservative. Suppose a Medicare for all system can help the U.S. cut total health spending by 20%. That would save us $600 billion — and still leave us with the highest per person healthcare spending in the world.

If we add all of these together, that would be more than $3 trillion in additional revenues or savings per year, well over the $1.5 trillion in additional government spending necessary to fund Medicare for all.

None of this would increase the burden on the middle class or the poor. Indeed, without insurance premiums and out-of-pocket expenses, their overall costs would fall dramatically. And none of this puts an excessive burden on the rich. Corporations would reap huge savings. And all Americans would get healthcare, with enough left to invest in other health, wellness and education programs.

These are just a few ideas, and others may be even more attractive. These simply demonstrate that we can have Medicare for all without ruining the economy or raising taxes on middle- and low-income earners. Let’s do it.

Stephen Marks is an economist and professor of law at Boston University School of Law.
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
My surgery was actually invented in Toronto then improved in Cleveland.

Insurance companies and innovation? Um that’s a major swing and a miss.
DrafterX Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,548
They found a way to make driving without it illegal... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
it's worth discussing...but we can't have the conversation without the protection of private health insurance...

those who can afford it do not want the same health care coverage as John Q....
frankj1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
delta1 wrote:
it's worth discussing...but we can't have the conversation without the protection of private health insurance...

those who can afford it do not want the same health care coverage as John Q....

I do lean this way. But it has to cost me more when uninsured go to emergency rooms for sniffles cuz they have no insurance. And the ER is not the top level of everyday care available, just the most expensive.
We can't afford this to continue, even if medicare-for-all is not the answer.

Warren (I do not want her to leave the Senate) has done far and away the most research on bankruptcy and the surprise is that Trump is not the typical user of this last gasp effort, nor is it the poorest...it's lower and middle income families due to health issues and their costs.

In America? This is shameful.

edit: I have great coverage, love it, want to keep it.
But I'd pay a bit more to fix this for others.
Country over party.
frankj1 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
My surgery was actually invented in Toronto then improved in Cleveland.

Insurance companies and innovation? Um that’s a major swing and a miss.

Canada is like French Lite.
Cleveland is like Iraq.
VaMtnMan Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2007
Posts: 3,743
If I lived in Canada I would have been dead 2 years ago. I needed a liver transplant and the wait for one in Canada is a lot longer than in the US. I was only given 2-3 weeks to live when I received mine and had been on the list for over 2 years.
ZRX1200 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
Leave it to the French to save Teedubya.

LeHockey Dad owes us all now
fishinguitarman Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Guess who I’m voting for... go ahead n guess
tailgater Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Healthcare in America is about what? 1/6 of our GDP? Maybe pushing 1/5?

Now let's ask ourselves an honest question:
What is the least efficient organization in perhaps the world?
My vote is the Federal Government of the United States.


Now, work with me here, let's take 18% of our GDP and let's put it completely under this inefficient umbrella.

Estimates are $92T for Warren's plan?

LOL!

Estimates for Ted Kennedy's Big Dig was $2B.
Ended up 7 times that.

I'm no mathematician, but 7 x 92T is a lot.


I live by the adage of If you think something is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

Uncle Sam should build roads and tanks. They shouldn't be in the insurance business.



deadeyedick Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,087
"These are just a few ideas, and others may be even more attractive. These simply demonstrate that we can have Medicare for all without ruining the economy or raising taxes on middle- and low-income earners. Let’s do it."

Stephen Marks is an economist and professor of law at Boston University School of Law.

I just love economics professors. They are so cute while being theoretical.

Why....why.... it's so simple, why didn't we do this years ago? I guess we are just not good enough socialists yet, but we are getting there.

Oh, and Frank, could you get this "economist" to do a little work on that Green New Deal thingy, and tell him to hurry cuz we only gots like 12 years and maybe he could check into that little $30T debt matter. With his math we may all be in line for a big fat rebate check.
frankj1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
so again, I don't speak for the guy, even stated I prefer my current coverage.
But we have to talk about some kind of fixes without the knee jerk dogma of profit creates answers.

I find it funny that so many of us state how much it would cost to even tinker with what we have when we are the run away leaders in health insurance cost and don't even have everyone covered.

I'm fairly new on medicare but in the few months I've had it things seem to be as smooth or smoother and cost me less.
tailgater Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:

But we have to talk about some kind of fixes without the knee jerk dogma of profit creates answers.



Or the knee jerk dogma of "the government will fix this"

delta1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
most advanced countries with modern health/medical care have a combination of universal public healthcare coupled with private health insurance for those who want it and can afford it...

only a few places do not: the Balkans, Belarus and the USA...it's the price we pay for living in the richest country in the world...


what's keeping us from joining the rest of the world? profits earned by private healthcare insurers and providers, which line the pockets of the wealthy and pay for propaganda, lobbyists, elections, and regulations for their own benefit...


read an article about non-profit health insurance and health care providers, compared to for-profit companies:

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-health-insurance-changed-from-protecting-patients-to-seeking-profit.html
frankj1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
tailgater wrote:
Or the knee jerk dogma of "the government will fix this"


I don't know. May not be my job to defend that position.
tailgater Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
most advanced countries with modern health/medical care have a combination of universal public healthcare coupled with private health insurance for those who want it and can afford it...

only a few places do not: the Balkans, Belarus and the USA...it's the price we pay for living in the richest country in the world...


what's keeping us from joining the rest of the world? profits earned by private healthcare insurers and providers, which line the pockets of the wealthy and pay for propaganda, lobbyists, elections, and regulations for their own benefit...


read an article about non-profit health insurance and health care providers, compared to for-profit companies:

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-health-insurance-changed-from-protecting-patients-to-seeking-profit.html


I live near Boston.
I have been to hospitals in Boston on more than several occasions.

There is a disproportionate number of vehicles with Quebec license plates.

I would like an explanation for this.



tailgater Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
I don't know. May not be my job to defend that position.


indefensible. That's why.

frankj1 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
[quote=tailgater]indefensible. That's why.

if the author is correct (you didn't even read it did you?) then the government is already in for half the 3 trillion. So if you like the way things are, you already like the Big Combination public/private.

I was never involved in our family coverage so have no historical understanding of health care insurance. But now I'm on medicare so I at least open the mail. So far it all looks very smooth and understandable to me...but my personal situation is probably not very complicated.

what is the general opinion of how well they are running their half? Medicare, CHIPS or whatever the other programs are?
teedubbya Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I’m pretty sure private insurance will fix things if we just keep letting them.
teedubbya Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I wonder how $ for healthcare vs $ for admin costs compare. How do most insurance companies determine coverage for procedures.... especially new ones.
frankj1 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
teedubbya wrote:
I’m pretty sure private insurance will fix things if we just keep letting them.

yeah, I don't know the best answers so I'm listening, and I'm trying to keep it clear I am not a spokesperson for universal.

But I do think the worst possible insurance option is if we pay double per person than the rest of the industrialized world with the lowest life expectancy as a result...and several corporations making billions of profit.

Is that more financially efficient than medicare? I don't know the numbers. So I ask. Others assume it is.

If just saying old chestnuts like the gov is inept..that's just more dogma without showing how bad they are specifically in the 1.5 trillion cut of this they manage.

Maybe this is the area in which they do well...I'm asking.

pretty sure they won't drop me if I get a terminal illness...maybe I'm wrong about that.
tailgater Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
The federal government will fix it.


delta1 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
by promoting non-profit health insurance and healthcare through incentives...
Krazeehorse Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
One possible plus for private insurance is you most likely know exactly what it is costing you. Unfortunately in most cases you don't know what your insurance is worth until you need it.
frankj1 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Krazeehorse wrote:
One possible plus for private insurance is you most likely know exactly what it is costing you. Unfortunately in most cases you don't know what your insurance is worth until you need it.

stop making sense.

izonfire Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,647
frankj1 wrote:
stop making sense.


Bet your bottom dollar
frankj1 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
couldn't we have both options?
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