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Last post 4 years ago by victor809. 74 replies replies.
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Finally ....
victor809 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Peace between Palestine and Israel.

Super glad Kushner was able to get those two parties to agree to a peace Plan. I heard that the plan is 80 pages long and has a map.

I've always heard that the most important parts of a peace plan are length and that it have visual aids.

...or was that the most important attributes of a pen1s???

frankj1 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
long blue lines make each look yuuuge too.
MACS Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,584
I admire their optimism, but if we've learned anything it is that palestinians can't be trusted.
teedubbya Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Not a reflection on this admin, and I don’t know the detail

But Lucy and the football coms to mind on both sides.
dstieger Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
victor809 wrote:
Peace between Palestine and Israel.

Super glad Kutcher was able to get those two parties to agree to a peace Plan. I heard that the plan is 80 pages long and has a map.

I've always heard that the most important parts of a peace plan are length and that it have visual aids.

...or was that the most important attributes of a pen1s???



I think we've been Punk'd
delta1 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
can a peace plan truly be realistic if one of the parties is not invited into the planning process?

we can call it the Middle East Eat This Piece Plan...
teedubbya Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And one party who wasn't involved in drafting it is expected to just accept it or they are the bad guys... LOL


I miss le hockey dad
delta1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
kinda like the dusty playbook used to write all the the peace treaties we signed with Native Americans in our history...
dstieger Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
So....what is it you think the Palestinians want?

Two state solution?
Autonomy?
Refugees right to return?

I think it's possible that if the proposal gets right some of what the Palestinians want, then no reason it cannot be basis to begin dealing.

Were the lines drawn with Sharpies or Dry Erase markers?
fishinguitarman Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Trump
teedubbya Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
dstieger wrote:
So....what is it you think the Palestinians want?

Two state solution?
Autonomy?
Refugees right to return?

I think it's possible that if the proposal gets right some of what the Palestinians want, then no reason it cannot be basis to begin dealing.

Were the lines drawn with Sharpies or Dry Erase markers
?



prolly both with a little crayon mixed in
HockeyDad Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,063
Peace plans are overrated
frankj1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
so then they're bad for business?
HockeyDad Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,063
Unless the peace plan specifically spells out how it will dramatically assist in the fight to stop climate change, it is of no value. The real war we must fight is man-made climate change.
frankj1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
I'm in!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,301
HockeyDad wrote:
The real war we must fight is man-made climate change.



I'll get the pitchforks and torch web store back online!
Brewha Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,143
HockeyDad wrote:
Unless the peace plan specifically spells out how it will dramatically assist in the fight to stop climate change, it is of no value. The real war we must fight is man-made climate change.

Dude, Wow. I mean you didn’t know?

NASA’s data on climate change is because of Obama. The reset of the fake news is liberal arrogance.

You should listen to Trump. Climate change is fake!

And he knows more about climate change than anyone.
frankj1 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Brewha wrote:
Dude, Wow. I mean you didn’t know?

NASA’s data on climate change is because of Obama. The reset of the fake news is liberal arrogance.

You should listen to Trump. Climate change is fake!

And he knows more about climate change than anyone.

you might be right. he has pumped a lot of methane into the atmosphere...
Brewha Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,143
Only because of liberal arrogance.

And the six Big Macs....
frankj1 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
I heard Bernie wants to ban Big Macs
Brewha Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,143
That’s just what he says - he works for the Right, you know...
frankj1 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
well, I do now...now that the rumors are confirmed.
Brewha Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,143
Patronize me if you like. but honestly what do you think of him?

He seems awfully smart and clever to be floating such openly liberal and impractical ideas with only a rainbow to make them work. And drawing a meaningful fraction of the voters because many value ideals above practicalities.

I suppose the most obvious assent is that he is working for himself - but true of them all I would reckon....
Mr. Jones Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,357
I missed this news...

Remember Menechem BegAns'...and Anwar Sadat? final forever peace agrEement with JiMmy Carter???

In da rosEgardenS...

How long did that last???

Kushners is a neophyte...wet behind the ears and over privileged for his entire existence...but he is damn smart, no doubt about it...just sad they set him up for failure...at least he got some agreement, I'LL give him that...
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Mr. Jones wrote:
I missed this news...

Remember Menechem BegAns'...and Anwar Sadat? final forever peace agrEement with JiMmy Carter???

In da rosEgardenS...

How long did that last???

Kushners is a neophyte...wet behind the ears and over privileged for his entire existence...but he is damn smart, no doubt about it...just sad they set him up for failure...at least he got some agreement, I'LL give him that...

Carter's deal between Egypt and Israel still holds, despite some turnover in Egyptian leadership.

you didn't miss any news, just an announcement from The Administration of their proposal after 3 years.
Kushner has no agreement yet, unless we wanted the Palestinians to burn US flags and pictures of Trump. But it is a big boost for Bibi in his struggle to hold on in Israel. I think he has a stake in the not-yet-announced Trump Tel Aviv Tower...but I heard that is in our national interest.

Oh, and Victor was being funny in the OP.
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Brewha wrote:
Patronize me if you like. but honestly what do you think of him?

He seems awfully smart and clever to be floating such openly liberal and impractical ideas with only a rainbow to make them work. And drawing a meaningful fraction of the voters because many value ideals above practicalities.

I suppose the most obvious assent is that he is working for himself - but true of them all I would reckon....

I love him...not necessarily rooting for all the talking points, but I could listen to him talk forever.
Best energy of them all.

I also love that (it seems) he may be the only candidate that is not indebted to any blood suckers who would use him. Nor does it seem he is in bed with any for his own benefit. Donors are like 18 bucks each and he has the most donors by far. That is so cool. And he's really not an official Democrat. He's not likely to stump for Dems in other states.
He's pretty much unaffiliated, I find that appealing.

Since he would be limited to President and not be King, I trust that he may lead us back to (but limited to) center, maybe a smidge left which I can handle, due to the constraints the other branches would impose on his talking points.

Yet he has managed to work well with GOP senators on stuff like defense/military. He is almost palatable to 2nd amendment purists, Vermont is pretty rural...for a self professed socialist, he manages to find compromise where none of the others can.

That said, I'm still leaning 3rd party in the finals, but I might drop my "unenrolled" status for the Primaries and give The Bern a vote to help right the wrong that Hillary pulled last time.
DrafterX Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
Hillary lost... Mellow
USNGunner Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
frankj1 wrote:
I love him...not necessarily rooting for all the talking points, but I could listen to him talk forever.
Best energy of them all.

I also love that (it seems) he may be the only candidate that is not indebted to any blood suckers who would use him. Nor does it seem he is in bed with any for his own benefit. Donors are like 18 bucks each and he has the most donors by far. That is so cool. And he's really not an official Democrat. He's not likely to stump for Dems in other states.
He's pretty much unaffiliated, I find that appealing.

Since he would be limited to President and not be King, I trust that he may lead us back to (but limited to) center, maybe a smidge left which I can handle, due to the constraints the other branches would impose on his talking points.

Yet he has managed to work well with GOP senators on stuff like defense/military. He is almost palatable to 2nd amendment purists, Vermont is pretty rural...for a self professed socialist, he manages to find compromise where none of the others can.

That said, I'm still leaning 3rd party in the finals, but I might drop my "unenrolled" status for the Primaries and give The Bern a vote to help right the wrong that Hillary pulled last time.



Wait. Bernie? Bernie Sanders? That freaking whack job socialist Bernie Sanders? Mr. "Free stuff" Sanders?

No, not palatable. And Vermont is a communist leaning liberal cesspool.

I'd like to see him get it though. Think
frankj1 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
USNGunner wrote:
Wait. Bernie? Bernie Sanders? That freaking whack job socialist Bernie Sanders? Mr. "Free stuff" Sanders?

No, not palatable. And Vermont is a communist leaning liberal cesspool.

I'd like to see him get it though. Think

unless he becomes king, he'll never get any commie stuff approved.
Vermont is beautiful, and they like guns
Buckwheat Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
teedubbya wrote:
Not a reflection on this admin, and I don’t know the detail

But Lucy and the football coms to mind on both sides.


trump's administration is certainly not the first to be duped into making poor decision regarding the middle east. fog
USNGunner Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
frankj1 wrote:
Vermont is beautiful, and they like guns


True. But they elect the most left leaning dufus heads that vote pure pelosi and schumer. ThumbDown

Illinois is a great example. Outside of the metro areas it's a gun loving reasonably conservative state. Unfortunately the population density of chitcago, sprungfield, and the big college towns have us outnumbered and we get stuck with the leftist communist bastards too. ****** Turban springs to mind. Obama was an empty suit state legilator as well till they found out he could give a good speech. Then they made him a national post turtle. Not talking
frankj1 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
USNGunner wrote:
True. But they elect the most left leaning dufus heads that vote pure pelosi and schumer. ThumbDown Not talking


well the powers behind the scenes certainly went out of their way to steal the nomination from him last time.
and he voted against many when he didn't support the Iraq mistake.

I'm thinking he's not really an insider to them, maybe they never warmed to the idea of a non-registered democrat waltzing in and taking the leading man role. That's Part of what I find appealing...I also just kind of like the guy and his irritable Larry David persona.
delta1 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
even tho I'm on record as saying I can get behind Warren...I can also feel the Bern...his extreme socialist programs, to me, are starting points to reform healthcare, education, environmental regulations, and corporate regulations...

I particularly want to see if he can reform the federal taxation program to ensure those at the top pay a fair share...

like with any POTUS he'll need a majority in the House and in the Senate to get any traction...otherwise it'll be a lot of wheel spinning and executive orders that won't have lasting impact...
izonfire Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
delta1 wrote:
even tho I'm on record as saying I can get behind Warren...I can also feel the Bern......

You’re suggesting a threesome.
Kinky
frankj1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
deep fake pics or it didn't happen
USNGunner Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
delta1 wrote:
I particularly want to see if he can reform the federal taxation program to ensure those at the top pay a fair share...


So...............................

What is that exactly? The better you do, the more you're penalized for being successful? You need to go back and re-read the founding of this country and the pilgrims early experiments.

That never works. You run out of other peoples money eventually. Brick wall
Sunoverbeach Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,583
I'd like to see for myself. Send me the money whenever you'd like
DrMaddVibe Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,301
USNGunner wrote:
So...............................

What is that exactly? The better you do, the more you're penalized for being successful? You need to go back and re-read the founding of this country and the pilgrims early experiments.

That never works. You run out of other peoples money eventually. Brick wall



Who is John Galt?
tailgater Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
even tho I'm on record as saying I can get behind Warren...I can also feel the Bern...his extreme socialist programs, to me, are starting points to reform healthcare, education, environmental regulations, and corporate regulations...

I particularly want to see if he can reform the federal taxation program to ensure those at the top pay a fair share...
.


This scares the sh1t out of me.

Forget the gruesome visual of you behind Warren or feeling up Bernie.

You're willing to embrace extreme social programs in hopes they'll simply stimulate progress towards a more reasonable end goal. With no fear that some or all of those programs actually move too far towards the "extreme".

Remember, once the government gives something for free, there is no going back.
No one ever got elected saying they would give less, or take things away.
You give it today and it's forever. Like herpes.

Sidenote:
How much is a fair share?

You've got the talking points down to a tee. Just curious if you can define them.

delta1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
fear not...we still live in America where campaign promises rarely get fulfilled to the fullest...moderation and incremental change generally wins the day...

you're assuming that Sanders' plans will get far in Congress...not with a GOP majority...so there will have to be some modifications...

every POTUS needs their party to have a majority in Congress to get stuff done...compare Trump's accomplishment during his first two years to after Feb 2018...


fair share is equal to the average American's net tax rate...and includes income for capital gains...not the "book" rate before credits, deductions, exemptions...
USNGunner Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Who is John Galt?


LOL Right?
delta1 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
good thing the people who helped the pilgrims in their struggles to survive in the new world were not like John Galt...
rfenst Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,096
Who is John Galt?
frankj1 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
correct
izonfire Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
On to the bonus round...
frankj1 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Dude, where's my car?
izonfire Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
frankj1 wrote:
Dude, where's my car?

Dude.
I’ll help you find your car after I help rfenst find himself...
izonfire Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
frankj1 wrote:
Dude, where's my car?

Dude.
I’ll help you find your car after I help rfenst find himself...
______

Please listen Frank.
I hate to repeat myself...
steve02 Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 05-20-2004
Posts: 954
MACS wrote:
I admire their optimism, but if we've learned anything it is that palestinians can't be trusted.

Agreed
DrMaddVibe Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,301
rfenst wrote:
Who is John Galt?



Robert, Robert, Robert...next time we meet up I'll give you a copy. The book's climatic emphasis is melted down to his detailed speech where he finally tips his hand to the world.

John Galt’s Speech from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand (1957) (mini-version excerpted by Daryl J. Sroufe)
Backdrop: Government has taken over the economy, moved it toward heavy regulation and socialism, and adopted a moral code of self-sacrifice. John Galt, whose name has been talked about the entire novel, but people don’t know who he is, has gotten all the big entrepreneurs in society together and they have gone “on strike” and have all disappeared to a new community.

For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Galt?" This is John Galt speaking. I'm the man who's taken away your victims and thus destroyed your world. You've heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis and that Man's sins are destroying the world. But your chief virtue has been sacrifice, and you've demanded more sacrifices at every disaster. You've sacrificed justice to mercy and happiness to duty. So why should you be afraid of the world around you?

Your world is only the product of your sacrifices. While you were dragging the men who made your happiness possible to your sacrificial altars, I beat you to it. I reached them first and told them about the game you were playing and where it would take them. I explained the consequences of your 'brother-love' morality, which they had been too innocently generous to understand. You won't find them now, when you need them more than ever.

We're on strike against your creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. If you want to know how I made them quit, I told them exactly what I'm telling you tonight. I taught them the morality of Reason -- that it was right to pursue one's own happiness as one's principal goal in life. I don't consider the pleasure of others my goal in life, nor do I consider my pleasure the goal of anyone else's life.

I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce. I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice. I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit. Force is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment. If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment. Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical.

You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born. When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's impossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice. To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free.

And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than its neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.


Like all of her works, she was a bit ahead of her time.
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