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Welfare, the systemic oppression of poor people.
Speyside Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Why not focus on the real problem? People don't need a hand out. They need a hand up. This is a governmental problem. There have been plenty of Republican and Democratic administrations who could have fixed this. Niether side wants to. Simply put one side is not as blatantly obvious as the other. Niether side has offered a solution.
DrafterX Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
Didn't Trump try to put a time frame on the welfare benefits..?? Think
Speyside Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
How is that an answer of a hand up? Hint, it isn't.
DrafterX Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
If there's no limits there's no incentive... Mellow
Speyside Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Not my point, which you missed. Fix the problem. Maybe call it an X step program. Real education. Break the gangs, whatever it takes. Real medical care. Real trade schools. Real jobs. Real hope. Don't just say we are ending this, that isn't an answer. We can say we are ending this, here is the answer, join up your win, don't join up your loss.
DrafterX Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
Anybody who wants to go to school can go to school... I've been there..don't tell me it's impossible.. unless you're a total f'up... Mellow
Gene363 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 25,058
Raise kids with a Mother and a Father.
Gene363 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 25,058
DrafterX wrote:
Anybody who wants to go to school can go to school... I've been there..don't tell me it's impossible.. unless you're a total f'up... Mellow


And, minorities can easily get a free ride, but they don't, why? I do not know, but I'm sure the victim culture teaches them they deserve to have it all without doing anything, because they were victimized. That will never work, people that are handed things have not sense of accomplishment or self worth.
frankj1 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 34,294
in summary, single parents have no shot and minorities have no drive.

Wow.

And what are the weaknesses of the rest of the poor/lower class who are not single or are white, or both?
Speyside Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Their education is no go Gene. They only hold them to grade standards and they make it easy. When they get to college they can't compete. And I am talking about all poor people, so get off the minority train. The impression of racial inequality is simple to simplistic. It is monetary inequality perpetrated by welfare. It is more nuanced than that, but the generalization is true.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
There is opportunities for everyone.. including family housing.. technical schools or college.. there's no excuse to stay on da welfare forever... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 34,294
got my certificate from Trump University
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
And I'm not saying da welfare is a bad thing.. I'm glad we have it.. some people have needed it including some friends of mine... I'm just saying there's a a way out and people shouldn't depend on it... Mellow
Mcdanielsamuel Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 04-28-2020
Posts: 271
Something has to motivate change. Some are intrinsically motivate with a desire within to succeed. Others need training and push in the right direction. Still others need to be dragged until they are tired of the scrapes. I can teach my kid to read, but what motivates him to read us entirely different. He is getting tired of asking what things say. His motivation comes from within now. My daughter wants to potty train. Her motivation is to be like the other kids and us adults. Find the motivation, then you find way to some solutions.
BuckyB93 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
There are lots of opportunities for further education and training if they are sought out. If you can't land a tuition or scholarship program from the various options out there, take out college loans. That's what I did and that's what everyone in my immediate family did. If that don't work for you there are other options.

- The armed services for one.
- Many employers offer tuition assistance or even fully paid tuition and I'm not talking about employers that only hire folks that already have skills and just want to further their education. I'm talking about businesses that typically hire high school kids - Walmart, Taco Bell, Walgreens, Lowes, Chipolte... All these companies will pay your tuition for you.

For example, anyone can get a job at WalMart. After 3 months there they offer an educational benefit: they will pay full tuition for many degree programs: GED, College Associates, Bachelors, Master degrees. The only requirement for the student is to stay employed at the company part-time or full-time while in school, pay $365 out of pocket per year (billed at ~ $30/month), and maintain a 2.0 minimum grade point average. Another way is if you can get an entry level job in one of their optical or pharmacy departments, they will pay for your schooling to get a optician tech or pharm tech degree/license or whatever. I know a few HS kids that worked at Wally World while in HS. After they graduated, they are staying on at Wally World just so they can take advantage of this perk - one going into pharm tech, one into vision tech, one for an IT degree and a fourth for some business degree.

Point being is that these are hand ups not hand outs. You still have to work part time and you still have to go to school and apply yourself. Opportunities are there if you want them.
Whistlebritches Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 19,265
BuckyB93 wrote:
There are lots of opportunities for further education and training if they are sought out. If you can't land a tuition or scholarship program from the various options out there, take out college loans. That's what I did and that's what everyone in my immediate family did. If that don't work for you there are other options.

- The armed services for one.
- Many employers offer tuition assistance or even fully paid tuition and I'm not talking about employers that only hire folks that already have skills and just want to further their education. I'm talking about businesses that typically hire high school kids - Walmart, Taco Bell, Walgreens, Lowes, Chipolte... All these companies will pay your tuition for you.

For example, anyone can get a job at WalMart. After 3 months there they offer an educational benefit: they will pay full tuition for many degree programs: GED, College Associates, Bachelors, Master degrees. The only requirement for the student is to stay employed at the company part-time or full-time while in school, pay $365 out of pocket per year (billed at ~ $30/month), and maintain a 2.0 minimum grade point average. Another way is if you can get an entry level job in one of their optical or pharmacy departments, they will pay for your schooling to get a optician tech or pharm tech degree/license or whatever. I know a few HS kids that worked at Wally World while in HS. After they graduated, they are staying on at Wally World just so they can take advantage of this perk - one going into pharm tech, one into vision tech, one for an IT degree and a fourth for some business degree.

Point being is that these are hand ups not hand outs. You still have to work part time and you still have to go to school and apply yourself. Opportunities are there if you want them.



Waste of breath Bucky..........the last thing democrats want is solutions,same with unmotivated people of all colors who are just happy with their little portion of gubmint cheese.
Abrignac Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 15,172
Speyside wrote:
Their education is no go Gene. They only hold them to grade standards and they make it easy. When they get to college they can't compete. And I am talking about all poor people, so get off the minority train. The impression of racial inequality is simple to simplistic. It is monetary inequality perpetrated by welfare. It is more nuanced than that, but the generalization is true.


Alan I worked as an SRO for about 10 years. Here’s what I learned:

1) Every child IS able to go to school. If they don’t have a ride a bus WILL pick them up. Maybe not in front of their home, but usually at the nearest cross street.

2) Every child is offered 2 meals per day. Though when I went to school they were way more substantial than they are now, yet Childhood obesity was much lower than it is now.

3) Every child in each class is offered the same opportunity. Some absorb information more than others. The rate of constructive participation usually mirrors they child’s grades.

4) Though I don’t know their household income, many of the parents of undisciplined children I encountered were themselves undisciplined. Hint: it has to do with apples and gravity.
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 25,058
Speyside wrote:
Their education is no go Gene. They only hold them to grade standards and they make it easy. When they get to college they can't compete. And I am talking about all poor people, so get off the minority train. The impression of racial inequality is simple to simplistic. It is monetary inequality perpetrated by welfare. It is more nuanced than that, but the generalization is true.


So if you gave out money they would be successful in getting an education, nonsense. You are also making a generalized assumption, that they cannot succeed and that is flat wrong. There are people of all races in all sorts of crappy life situations that succeed regardless of their situation.

"Minority train" my ass, when a black financial councilor apologizes and tells a white veteran the only additional help she could offer was if he was black. He gets his degree, while in a National Guard unit, gets a promotion to lead a predominately black group who then give him sh|t about being white got him the promotion. He tells them how they can do the same thing, FREE, they don't have the time or inclinatio, they just want the promotion.

I will agree that standards for education and job qualification have been perverted in an attempt to impose an artificial reality.
Gene363 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 25,058
Abrignac wrote:
Alan I worked as an SRO for about 10 years. Here’s what I learned:

1) Every child IS able to go to school. If they don’t have a ride a bus WILL pick them up. Maybe not in front of their home, but usually at the nearest cross street.

2) Every child is offered 2 meals per day. Though when I went to school they were way more substantial than they are now, yet Childhood obesity was much lower than it is now.

3) Every child in each class is offered the same opportunity. Some absorb information more than others. The rate of constructive participation usually mirrors they child’s grades.

4) Though I don’t know their household income, many of the parents of undisciplined children I encountered were themselves undisciplined. Hint: it has to do with apples and gravity.


This problem knows no income boundaries, there are a ton of well off parents whose little darlings get caught red handed will say, "My child didn't do that." even if the child has admitted committing the offense.
Speyside Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Gene, I am saying, abet poorly, the whole system needs change. It failed. The exceptional people make it out. Most perpetuate a failed system. We are wasting precious resources. It will take someone smarter than I to put the right system in place. A system that does not incentivise people to change has no value. I am not saying to continue welfare. I am saying to replace the whole damn system. Maybe this means raising those children in a Kibbutz like style. Maybe something else. Maybe it means ending gangs by any way possible. Maybe it means taking people who won't parent their child and making them able to have no more children. There are enough precious assets being thrown away to fix this. I am will to see draconian measures enforced to fix this. The human talent being wasted is obscene. Mind you, again I am being overly simple.
teedubbya Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
It’s always possible to rise from any situation.

I do not believe it’s a level playing field in all zip codes though. I think the quality of education available to you is largely driven by location and your ability gain a decent enough education to launch is definitely impacted by that. That’s why we moved to where we did, a better school district for our kids.

The ability for our kids in this district to flourish and thrive let alone continue on to higher education is much greater than those in the KCMO district and exponentially greater than in some neighborhoods. That’s not even up for debate. That’s not to say any individual in the KCMO district can’t do so but the odds are not in their favor and it will be much more difficult. From a systemic perspective their odds are much less of doing so than my children. And that is looking just at the education system and not all the other disadvantages of living where they do, St Louis is way worse than KC and Chicago worse yet.

Then it’s a catch 22. Just move right? I did. I had the resources. Just get the resources. If you don’t you are lazy or living off of me, I posted links yesterday Showing how some of this developed. And it’s not a simple pull up your bootstraps situation. On a personal level some can do it and should do so. On a system level the odds and barriers are stacked against them and looking at it globally the majority will fail. Talk about a rigged system.

Healthcare is much the same way. Your zip code will predict your health state and health care better than genetics.
victor809 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 22,942
If it will stop people from whining like delicate little snowflakes, I'm ok with us just summarily executing every single american on welfare and/or disability.

That fixes the problem.
DrafterX Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
True... true.... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
That would eliminate the need to say ok boomer too.

Winning.
frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 34,294
I'm learning there is no systemic racism, so i don't know how to explain the disparity in treatment, opportunity, and acceptance of minority housing seekers with equal qualifications to white applicants in many zip codes.
Makes it tough to change to the healthier zip codes with the good schools.

used to call stuff like this (especially where banks would and would not approve mortgages to the same families) red lining.
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 22,942
frankj1 wrote:
I'm learning there is no systemic racism, so i don't know how to explain the disparity in treatment, opportunity, and acceptance of minority housing seekers with equal qualifications to white applicants in many zip codes.
Makes it tough to change to the healthier zip codes with the good schools.

used to call stuff like this (especially where banks would and would not approve mortgages to the same families) red lining.


Hush frank redlining is a liberul myth. There is no systemic racism. Fat old white guys in a discount cigar forum have determined that.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,341
Just remember that poor kids are just as bright, just as talented, as white kids.

David
DrafterX Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
Laugh
Speyside Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Dave, I never mentioned color. I just said poor. There are wretchedly poor of all races.
teedubbya Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
He’s just throwing in a gaff by Biden while Biden was discussing how to help the poor and minorities while ignoring the daily gaffs by trump while trying not to help the poor or minorities. Gaffs are not equal.
BuckyB93 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
teedubbya wrote:
It’s always possible to rise from any situation.

I do not believe it’s a level playing field in all zip codes though. I think the quality of education available to you is largely driven by location and your ability gain a decent enough education to launch is definitely impacted by that. That’s why we moved to where we did, a better school district for our kids.

The ability for our kids in this district to flourish and thrive let alone continue on to higher education is much greater than those in the KCMO district and exponentially greater than in some neighborhoods. That’s not even up for debate. That’s not to say any individual in the KCMO district can’t do so but the odds are not in their favor and it will be much more difficult. From a systemic perspective their odds are much less of doing so than my children. And that is looking just at the education system and not all the other disadvantages of living where they do, St Louis is way worse than KC and Chicago worse yet.

Then it’s a catch 22. Just move right? I did. I had the resources. Just get the resources. If you don’t you are lazy or living off of me, I posted links yesterday Showing how some of this developed. And it’s not a simple pull up your bootstraps situation. On a personal level some can do it and should do so. On a system level the odds and barriers are stacked against them and looking at it globally the majority will fail. Talk about a rigged system.

Healthcare is much the same way. Your zip code will predict your health state and health care better than genetics.


So what are the barriers that are keeping those living in the wrong zip code from getting a high school diploma?
DrafterX Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
“We should challenge students in these schools,” Mr. Biden said. “We have this notion that somehow if you’re poor, you cannot do it. Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”


Mellow
Speyside Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Honestly, I try to ignore both of our geriatric candidates words as much as possible. It's just some are impossible to ignore.
teedubbya Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
BuckyB93 wrote:
So what are the barriers that are keeping those living in the wrong zip code from getting a high school diploma?


Oh there are many (some not necessarily school related, some are) but you would discount them. However I wasn’t talking about getting a high school diploma, and not all high school diplomas are equal. In some areas you can get your high school diploma without knowing how to read.

A diploma from my kids high school means more and opens more doors with employers and particularly universities than the one we moved from. And to top it off they learned more which sort of helps too.

I don’t think I’m being particularly controversial. Anyone with kids that doesn’t look in to the school districts when moving is either foolish or lying. That means there is at least a tacit recognition of variation. That variation is drastic in many areas.
teedubbya Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
DrafterX wrote:
“We should challenge students in these schools,” Mr. Biden said. “We have this notion that somehow if you’re poor, you cannot do it. Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”


Mellow


A well intended gaff sticks with some while they discount the gaffs of their own idiot.
Speyside Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 10,591
Thanks for enlightening us that you can parrot statements. Do you have any interest in solving the actual problems?
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 34,294
teedubbya wrote:
Oh there are many (some not necessarily school related, some are) but you would discount them. However I wasn’t talking about getting a high school diploma, and not all high school diplomas are equal. In some areas you can get your high school diploma without knowing how to read.

A diploma from my kids high school means more and opens more doors with employers and particularly universities than the one we moved from. And to top it off they learned more which sort of helps too.

I don’t think I’m being particularly controversial. Anyone with kids that doesn’t look in to the school districts when moving is either foolish or lying. That means there is at least a tacit recognition of variation. That variation is drastic in many areas.

though overall I didn't care for the book Hillbilly Elegy, J.D. Vance makes a good point about the gap in America.
Not race, he says, but the poor or lower class is at a huge disadvantage in achieving upward mobility in American socio-economic status due to a 98.2% lack of "social equity".

Even among those that have the inner fire, the smarts, and the teachers very few "make it" in America.
As for himself, a variety of circumstances landed him in law school, and even being that smart and stuff, he figures he would have been another one room attorney going nowhere had he not been invited to a cocktail reception one evening in law school. All his classmates knew what it really was, a chance to shmooze with head honchos from big legal firms...the sort of social equity his social class had been shut out from...perhaps not intentionally, but effectively.

the old expression, it's who you know, works in reverse when you don't know anyone.

tw is correct, not all schools and degrees are created equal.
delta1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 22,294
barriers in wrong zip code?

schools: mostly unqualified, unmotivated and uncaring teachers, staff and administrators; substandard, unkempt facilities; out of date books and learning resources; few high tech resources; few supplies; overcrowded classrooms; lack of before and after school activities, including remedial tutors or recreation

neighborhoods: run-down and overcrowded housing; poor plumbing, water and electricity; no recreational facilities; no opportunities for homework help; infested with drugs and gangs and vermin; aggressive policing by uncaring and occupying force police; dangers going to and from school include assaults, robbery, traffic; no routine healthcare; no places of business that are sources of employment

family structure: mostly poverty level under-educated working single parent mothers; father unknown, gone or incarcerated; several brothers and sisters, possibly a grandparent of other family member in the household; living in older small one or two bedroom apt or house; kids run wild, become undisciplined, because mom is at work


after several generations in these squalid conditions, only a few emerge and join the American dream...most people there are impoverished and have no opportunities for self development or advancement, so they lose hope and feel that the American ideals don't apply to them...
DrafterX Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
But Obama promised to fix all that stuff..Mellow
delta1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 22,294
Mitch, then Paul and Mitch, kept getting in the way...


Paul and Mitch...cool name for a con folk duo
victor809 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 22,942
I was having a conversation with the wife about this. She grew up incredibly poor, and has a different perspective on these things than I do. She got out of poverty by going to college and eventually becoming part of the banking industry helping to destroy america (I'm very proud), while her sister got out by getting knocked up.

The conditions people in section 8 housing, live in are not conducive to success. I honestly don't know how she did it. Her mother would go on gambling trips for a week, leave her at age 7(?) to take care of her infant sister and 20$ to pay for food the entire week, and instructions not to open the door for anyone. She would eat only rice many days. When you are living in those conditions, it only takes one small event to destroy everything, and those events may be completely out of your control. If a neighbor had had a fire, and the firemen had come, she would have been taken into CPS and put in foster care, separated from her family. Her life would have been completely different (maybe worse, maybe better, but traumatic).
Whistlebritches Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 19,265
delta1 wrote:
barriers in wrong zip code?

schools: mostly unqualified, unmotivated and uncaring teachers, staff and administrators; substandard, unkempt facilities; out of date books and learning resources; few high tech resources; few supplies; overcrowded classrooms; lack of before and after school activities, including remedial tutors or recreation

neighborhoods: run-down and overcrowded housing; poor plumbing, water and electricity; no recreational facilities; no opportunities for homework help; infested with drugs and gangs and vermin; aggressive policing by uncaring and occupying force police; dangers going to and from school include assaults, robbery, traffic; no routine healthcare; no places of business that are sources of employment

family structure: mostly poverty level under-educated working single parent mothers; father unknown, gone or incarcerated; several brothers and sisters, possibly a grandparent of other family member in the household; living in older small one or two bedroom apt or house; kids run wild, become undisciplined, because mom is at work


after several generations in these squalid conditions, only a few emerge and join the American dream...most people there are impoverished and have no opportunities for self development or advancement, so they lose hope and feel that the American ideals don't apply to them...



The one thing in common in every area like this in the US is a Representative with a big fat "D" by their name.They've been promising improvements their entire time in office but the only thing that has changed is the number of zero's added to the end of their nest egg.I'm not saying the reps with R's by their name are any better. I just find it quite revealing as to who's been schitting on these people for the last 50-75 years.


It is time for a change but sadly these poor people have bitten hook line and sinker into the liberal lie.
delta1 Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 22,294
that's something we agree about: Dems and GOP are part of the political power system and have contributed to the cycle of poverty in many inner cities all across America...

these poverty zones exist in both Red and Blue states...although Dems talk a good game, they haven't delivered what they've promised...

GOP doesn't bother to make promises they don't intend to keep...helping the poor is not on their agenda...but sometimes what the GOP aspires to and does actually makes poverty worse
BuckyB93 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
teedubbya wrote:
Oh there are many (some not necessarily school related, some are) but you would discount them. However I wasn’t talking about getting a high school diploma, and not all high school diplomas are equal. In some areas you can get your high school diploma without knowing how to read.

A diploma from my kids high school means more and opens more doors with employers and particularly universities than the one we moved from. And to top it off they learned more which sort of helps too.

I don’t think I’m being particularly controversial. Anyone with kids that doesn’t look in to the school districts when moving is either foolish or lying. That means there is at least a tacit recognition of variation. That variation is drastic in many areas.


What an incredible way to further healthy discussion. Those mind reading skills you posses and your dismissive nature must come in handy during group team problem solving and brainstorming sessions.
teedubbya Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
Well there have been some mentioned unless you’d prefer to focus on one sentence and claim your goal is healthy discussion. Frankly I don’t find a high school diploma to be the issue or the solution. There is plenty in this thread to think about unless you choose to discount it.
BuckyB93 Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
Would you not agree that the best way to get people off the systematic welfare or poverty marry-go-round (parents in the system = kids in = their kids in the system and on and on) is either a solid education? If so, getting a credible HS education/diploma or equivalent is a first stepping stone to continue on to better employment opportunities.
teedubbya Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 91,413
You didn’t read what I said apparently.
BuckyB93 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
As I read it, your main point is WHERE they live is the major factor and unless they find a way to relocate they are cannot get out of the rut of systemic poverty even if they wanted to.

I contend location is not the root of systemic poverty, it's the individual and/or family structure that keeps them there with no drive or desire to change themselves or their surroundings.
DrafterX Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 92,441
If you have more kids you get more money... Mellow
BuckyB93 Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 8,647
This is the merry-go-round. Rather than getting a real education to break out and become a functional contributing member of society they learn from their current environment how to work the system to stay on the government dole.

That's my take
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