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Last post 3 years ago by frankj1. 31 replies replies.
I Answered the Call of My President’: Rioters Say Trump Urged Them On
rfenst Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,112
The defense from Trump supporters arrested in the Capitol assault is emerging in court papers and interviews — and could play a role in impeachment proceedings.

NYT
In the two weeks since a raging mob stormed the Capitol, President Trump has shown no sign that he believes he shares responsibility for the worst incursion on the halls of Congress in more than two centuries. Shielding him further, his loyalists have started shifting blame for the attack to an array of distracting bogeymen: far-left anti-fascists, Black Lives Matter activists, even vague conspiracies of a setup involving Vice President Mike Pence.

But one group of people has already come forward and directly implicated Mr. Trump in the riot at the Capitol: some of his own supporters who were arrested while taking part in it. In court papers and interviews, at least four pro-Trump rioters have said they joined the march that spiraled into violence in part because the president encouraged them to do so.

In the past few days, a retired firefighter charged with assaulting members of the Capitol Police force told a friend he went to the building following “the president’s instructions,” according to a criminal complaint, and a Texas real estate agent accused of breaching the building told a reporter that by protesting in Washington, she had “answered the call of my president.”

A Virginia man has told the F.B.I. that he and his cousin marched on the Capitol because Mr. Trump said “something about taking Pennsylvania Avenue.” And a lawyer for the so-called QAnon Shaman — who invaded the building in a Viking costume — said that Mr. Trump was culpable, and he planned to ask the White House for a pardon.

“Does our president bear responsibility?” the lawyer, Al Watkins, told The New York Times. “Hell, yes, he does.”

The nationwide dragnet for those accused of breaking into the Capitol is only in its early stages, and it is likely to take weeks until the full scope and contours of the investigation are known. But with dozens of people now in custody and starting to appear in court, the accounts they give about Mr. Trump could end up not only as fodder in criminal proceedings but also at an impeachment trial to bolster charges that the president incited the assault.

On Wednesday, Mr. Trump was impeached for a second time after the House voted to approve a single charge, citing his part in whipping up the mob that descended on the Capitol on Jan. 6 after attending a rally where Mr. Trump and his allies repeated his baseless assertions that the election was rigged against him. He now faces a trial in the Senate that could disqualify him from future office.

While it would be unusual if any of the defendants charged in the Capitol attack were called as witnesses in the impeachment drama, it is possible that Democrats could cite statements about Mr. Trump that those defendants have made in public or to investigators.

At the very least, the emergence of a “Trump-made-me-do-it” defense could serve to undercut the baseless narrative by some of the president’s congressional allies and his personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, who have sought to push the story that outside agitators or disloyal servants were responsible for the Capitol attack.

As the criminal cases stemming from the riot move through the legal system, they also could put some of Mr. Trump’s most ardent followers in the awkward position of having to publicly lay blame at the feet of the man they came out to support.

The approach is formally known as a public authority defense, and in using it, lawyers can try to argue that their clients are not guilty because a government official permitted them to commit the crimes.

Legal scholars have questioned the viability of the defense in the case of the Capitol breach, noting that anyone who seeks to blame Mr. Trump for their part in the assault would have to prove not only that they believed he had authorized their actions, but also that such a belief was reasonable.

But even if trying to offload responsibility onto Mr. Trump may not be effective at a trial, it could ultimately help lighten the punishment for anyone convicted of a crime in connection with the attack, said Judith P. Miller, a law professor at the University of Chicago before the invasion of the Capitol, Mr. Trump spoke at a rally and told his supporters that “you’ll never take back our country with weakness.”


“The fact that our country’s highest leader is promoting this grand lie and giving millions of people a sense of righteousness, and that they’re on the side of the angels, that seems like it could be potentially strong mitigating evidence,” Ms. Miller said.

Mr. Trump began promoting his Washington event well before it happened, urging his allies to join him for a speech outside the White House. During the address, attended by thousands, he told the crowd “to walk down to the Capitol” where Congress, overseen by Mr. Pence, was certifying the final count of the election results.

“You’ll never take back our country with weakness,” he admonished the throng. “You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

Shortly after Robert Sanford, a retired firefighter from Boothwyn, Pa., heard those words, he joined the growing mob that was marching on the Capitol. There, federal prosecutors say, Mr. Sanford heaved a fire extinguisher at a group of police officers, striking and injuring three of them.

When Mr. Sanford got home, according to a criminal complaint filed last week, he told a friend he had gone to Washington to hear Mr. Trump, then “followed the president’s instructions” and moved on to the Capitol.

His lawyer, Enrique Latoison, said in an interview with The Times that he was still exploring whether blaming Mr. Trump for Mr. Sanford’s alleged role in the attack would work in front of a judge.

“You’re being told, ‘You gotta fight like hell,’” Mr. Latoison said. “Does ‘fight like hell’ mean you can throw stuff at people? Maybe."

Mr. Latoison noted that the only reason Mr. Sanford was in Washington at all was because of Mr. Trump. “That man wouldn’t have been there if it wasn’t for the president,” he said.

When Jennifer L. Ryan flew from Texas to Washington on a private plane with friends, she did so, as she later told a reporter, because Mr. Trump “asked us to go.”

“He said, ‘Be there,’” Ms. Ryan explained. “So I went and I answered the call of my president.”

Not long afterward, prosecutors say, Ms. Ryan, a real estate agent from a Dallas suburb, posed for a photograph in front of a broken window at the Capitol and then illegally entered the building through its Rotunda entrance. In a now-deleted Facebook video, court papers say, she could be heard joining the trespassing crowd inside shouting, “Fight for freedom!” and “This is our house!”

Supporters of Mr. Trump began to marcAnother video emerged on Sunday of the mob inside the building confronting the Capitol Police, while one man yelled at the officers that he and his fellow rioters were there because they were “listening to Trump, your boss.”

That, in essence, was the argument that Mr. Watkins, who is based in St. Louis, plans to make as he begins his defense of the QAnon Shaman, a Phoenix man whose real name is Jacob Chansley.

Mr. Chansley, an unemployed actor who has made a name for himself in recent weeks by turning up at pro-Trump rallies in face paint, a horned battle helmet and a six-foot spear, was charged with breaking into the Senate chamber and leaving a note for Mr. Pence that read, “It’s only a matter of time, justice is coming.” On Friday, a federal judge in Arizona ordered him detained pending trial, saying he was “an active participant in a violent insurrection to overthrow the U.S. government.”

Mr. Watkins did not deny that Mr. Chansley was inside the Capitol that day, but suggested he had gone there because he, like others, “hung on the words of the president” for comfort and guidance. “What you’ve got here are people like my client who take the president seriously,” Mr. Watkins added, “and look to him to make them feel relevant in a system that has made them feel neglected.”

That is why Mr. Watkins plans in the coming days to ask Mr. Trump to pardon Mr. Chansley, comparing him and the others at the Capitol to cult members.

“They were betrayed by somebody in whom they’d placed their faith,” Mr. Watkins said. “They’re like the followers of Jim Jones. The only thing missing was the Kool-Aid.”
ZRX1200 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,477
Speaking of koolaid....
RayR Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,802
Herr rfenst forgot to credit the authors, Alan Feuer and Nicole Hong. They are just answering the call of their party..
Zzzzzzzzzzzz....
Gene363 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,680
No offense to Robert, but that is from the mouth of a defense lawyer.
teedubbya Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
No offense to....... always makes offensive things better lol
teedubbya Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
And Gene I am joking.
frankj1 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
so, no offense, eh?
delta1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
and whoops...there goes the Trump defense against " inciting an insurrection" charge...

whole buncha his peeps saying "Trump told me to do it"
teedubbya Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
They were kidding and stuff but Obama and Hillary....

For Christ sake Biden smelled hair and stuff and will eat baybeees
rfenst Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,112
Gene363 wrote:
No offense to Robert, but that is from the mouth of a defense lawyer.

Yes. That is what interested me.
Gene363 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,680
rfenst wrote:
Yes. That is what interested me.


Yes, I saw your highlighted portions. I'm not excusing the crimes, but it sure seems like a convenient excuse. If one was willing to break into the Capitol because they truly believed they were justified, tainted election or whatever, they would not be standing behind something like, "I was only following orders." Sounds like crime compounded.
Speyside Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Trump said a lot that someone can draw inferences from. In my best Forrest Gump voice, crazy is as crazy does. You do not charge someone based on what you want. You charge them based on the law. What they thought would be irrelevant. What Trump said is relevant. You cannot prove a direct linkage based on his speech.
frankj1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
not sure they can do it successfully, but they're probably connecting the dots going back to Charlottesville, maybe even back to the Central Park garbage.
He has been grooming a following for ages.

Do we find it easy to believe that the brainwashed in Jonesville heard dog whistles that people with normal brain functioning did not?
Smooth light Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
If you are told to walk in front of a moving truck, it won't hurt you.
Would you do it? Then your the idiot!
teedubbya Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Never thought I'd here this from the turtle sithe

"The mob was fed lies," McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said on the Senate floor. "They were provoked by the President and other powerful people."
DrafterX Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
he was just kiddin.... Mellow
rfenst Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,112
teedubbya wrote:
Never thought I'd here this from the turtle sithe

"The mob was fed lies," McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said on the Senate floor. "They were provoked by the President and other powerful people."

And with that, enough Republicans will follow him to vote to convict Trump.
Might become inevitable pretty soon. What a sad, tragic ending.
JadeRose Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 19,525
Axl started a riot once. He got kicked out of St. Louis
teedubbya Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Not entirely unpredictable though... you could see it coming. it's not like an m night shamalamadingdong movie. He could have stopped and gone away but as I predicted at the beginning the joke caught up and he went all Carrie on us
Smooth light Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
Chinese just flexing their influence...
On another bought politician...(check out his shipping business)
delta1 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
I dunno...too many weak and fearful GOP Senators who know Trump still has a lotta voters who support him, so they won't vote to convict... more than 60% of GOP voters still approve of Trump...they don't wanna pizz those voters off...

regardless of how strong a case there is for the impeachment trial, and even if he is charged and convicted criminally before the Senate trial, which is doubtful, the Senate will not convict him...
fiddler898 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-15-2009
Posts: 3,782
Smooth light wrote:
If you are told to walk in front of a moving truck, it won't hurt you.
Would you do it? Then your the idiot!


I would say that’s the case for most of Trump's followers.
delta1 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
three out of four GOP don't believe Biden won the election...

the same election where the GOP gained 10 seats in the House and did better than expected in Senate races and flipped one governor's office...

those results are OK, but something fishy happened at the top of the ballot?
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
you think common sense will make sense now?
teedubbya Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
nope. have you been reading in here?
frankj1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
teedubbya wrote:
nope. have you been reading in here?

yes.
disheartened at the dearth of comments directly condemning Jan 6 and the few that do so with attachments to random violence so as to neutralize the pain of an attack on Democracy...as if those crimes are comparable in magnitude and historic importance/damage.
delta1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
butt Obama, Hillary, Biden, BLM, Dems, antifa
teedubbya Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Frank our founding fathers worried about two things an autocrat and the mob. We just experienced both. And we still stand. This was a dark dark time for any true American. But we will be OK and there is hope.

I just hope some of the people that have been supporting the indefensible come around. I’ve never seen anything like this and never want to ever again and I really don’t care about party.
DrafterX Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
You gotta fight..
For your right..
To party...

Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,069
The Beastie Boys were just kidding.
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
teedubbya wrote:
Frank our founding fathers worried about two things an autocrat and the mob. We just experienced both. And we still stand. This was a dark dark time for any true American. But we will be OK and there is hope.

I just hope some of the people that have been supporting the indefensible come around. I’ve never seen anything like this and never want to ever again and I really don’t care about party.

that's what I would have written if I wasn't like uh idiot
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