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Last post 21 months ago by Brewha. 220 replies replies.
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If this is your morality, then I'll have none of it.
bgz Offline
#151 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
You assume too much Ben.

Just because I don't answer a fool according to his folly doesn't mean I can't answer.

You are correct that you could argue my point better than me as you have consistently done that since day one.


What am I assuming exactly?

Please, without the woo.
Speyside2 Offline
#152 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Brewha, I seldom use the word religion. I use the word faith, a better word is know.

Religious fundamentalists pervert their religion. I do not have faith in religion, just in God. I am Christian. I was Agnostic for a very long time. I am fine with everyone who tries to do good. As a Christian I morn that you are not saved. On a personal level I might share why I changed. I never want my personal faith to become part of our government.

At the same time I never want a state sponsored religion. I feel that the extreme left wants an entirely socialistic government. That would be the equivalent of a state run religion to me. Also socialism does not work as a form of government, though social programs do.
Dg west deptford Offline
#153 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Catch up Ben, go back.

The "without knowledge" claim is self assigned by brew

Learn definitions/

Agnostic- says brew
Greek = without knowledge

Atheist - bgz
Knowledge claim No God.

Begs the same question either way

How do you know?


Dg west deptford Offline
#154 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Amen to mourning Spey2.0
Good word on Ben's morality thread

Glory to God!
bgz Offline
#155 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
Catch up Ben, go back.

The "without knowledge" claim is self assigned by brew

Learn definitions/

Agnostic- says brew
Greek = without knowledge

Atheist - bgz
Knowledge claim No God.

Begs the same question either way

How do you know?




Your word play is bad.

If you want to slap a label on my forehead, the actual label is "atheist of the agnostic variety".

I leave open the possibility of you being correct, I just don't put much weight on it... like almost none.
Dg west deptford Offline
#156 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Is that true
bgz Offline
#157 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Absolutely
Dg west deptford Offline
#158 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
The fact that words have meaning refute you

You slapped the label, not me.

But you refuted yourself somewhat humbly in your last statement so explore that for your Makers sake.

The almost is not someone you want to be

I'm an almost myself too much of the time

Can I get a witness?
Brewha Offline
#159 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Speyside2 wrote:
Brewha, I seldom use the word religion. I use the word faith, a better word is know.

Religious fundamentalists pervert their religion. I do not have faith in religion, just in God. I am Christian. I was Agnostic for a very long time. I am fine with everyone who tries to do good. As a Christian I morn that you are not saved. On a personal level I might share why I changed. I never want my personal faith to become part of our government.

At the same time I never want a state sponsored religion. I feel that the extreme left wants an entirely socialistic government. That would be the equivalent of a state run religion to me. Also socialism does not work as a form of government, though social programs do.

I believe that each of us comes to know god in their own way.

It is a courteous peculiarity that people tend to pity those who have a different believe. Should I say that is god will? I don’t think so.

People should be have the freedom of and from religion. And that’s all I have to say about that.

Socialism and capitalism are a good mix. Either one by itself is a gothic tragedy.
So it seems it’s about balance.
bgz Offline
#160 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
The fact that words have meaning refute you


That sentence has no meaning, no response warranted.

Dg west deptford wrote:

You slapped the label, not me.


The people that come up with labels came up with that label, not me.

It's easier for people like you to categorize things if they come prepackaged with a name.

Dg west deptford wrote:

But you refuted yourself somewhat humbly in your last statement so explore that for your Makers sake.


I refuted myself by making a clever comment to poke fun at you?

That's deep... it has no meaning... like most things you say, but I can see you digging there, I like the effort.

Dg west deptford wrote:

The almost is not someone you want to be


That sentence has no meaning, no response warranted.

Dg west deptford wrote:

I'm an almost myself too much of the time

Can I get a witness?


That sentence has no meaning, no response warranted.


Brewha Offline
#161 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
Catch up Ben, go back.

The "without knowledge" claim is self assigned by brew

Learn definitions/

Agnostic- says brew
Greek = without knowledge

Atheist - bgz
Knowledge claim No God.

Begs the same question either way

How do you know?



An agnostic believes that some things are unknowable.
No, I do not expect you to understand or believe this. But you should try.

I think I get your perspective: your believes give you exclusive knowledge. And without these believes and imbued knowledge no one else knows anything. Am I close?
Dg west deptford Offline
#162 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
In #157^ you said you know something to be absolutely true

How do you know that to be absolutely true?
If you know there is no God(atheist)
& are without knowledge (Agnostic variety)


Is this not your self assigned label = Atheist of the Agnostic variety

Or are you just attempting miserably to suppress the Truth in unrighteousness
Dg west deptford Offline
#163 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Brewha wrote:
An agnostic believes that some things are unknowable.
No, I do not expect you to understand or believe this. But you should try.

I think I get your perspective: your believes give you exclusive knowledge. And without these believes and imbued knowledge no one else knows anything. Am I close?



What is knowable by an Agnostic?

No, I believe like you, that everybody knows things to be true

They just refuse to acknowledge where knowledge comes from while using knowledge to refute its source
bgz Offline
#164 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
In #157^ you said you know something to be absolutely true


I gave you my beliefs... I didn't lie to you. Therefore it was a true statement.

By extension it's an absolutely true statement.

You asked if it was true.

Absolutely...

Thus the joke was on you... it obviously flew straight over your head, didn't pass go, didn't collect $200.

Dg west deptford wrote:

How do you know that to be absolutely true?
If you know there is no God(atheist)
& are without knowledge (Agnostic variety)

Is this not your self assigned label = Atheist of the Agnostic variety


Garbage questions...

Go look up some definitions would you... and quit trying to wrap me into a neat little box you can understand.

You're not capable of understanding my beliefs... you don't have the prerequisites.

And again... you're not using the philosophical theistic logic toolkit correctly... you're just not...

Not to mention, the toolkit is based on a set of logical fallacies that have long been debunked... you're using an obsolete toolkit... incorrectly

Dg west deptford wrote:

Or are you just attempting miserably to suppress the Truth in unrighteousness


That sentence has no meaning, no response warranted.
Brewha Offline
#165 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
What is knowable by an Agnostic?

No, I believe like you, that everybody knows things to be true

They just refuse to acknowledge where knowledge comes from while using knowledge to refute its source

Most things are knowable. Unless you hold that all knowledge comes from a deity. A thought I honestly cannot fathom - and you sir cannot explain.

What is unknowable are things that cannot be demonstrated or tested in any practical way.
bgz Offline
#166 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Further... there are a class of problems that are unknowable even for a being such as they hypothetical God.

Undecidable problems, where if they are true, they can't be known to be true, even with infinite computation.

3n + 1 could be such a problem (Collatz Conjecture).

That destroys the axiom that all Truths must be known in the theistic logical toolkit (which DG tries to wield, but does so incorrectly).
Brewha Offline
#167 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Faith and logic opposing approaches.

Faith tells us never believe your doubts or doubt your believes.

Logic tells us to never stop questioning and re-examining.
Brewha Offline
#168 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
And if you really want to talk unknowable - well, you’er married, right….
Dg west deptford Offline
#169 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Knowable things are our focus guys quit deflecting to the unknowable

You neglected to mention any yet you claim to know many

Does an atheist/agnostic know things to be true for all people at all times or not?
bgz Offline
#170 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
Knowable things are our focus guys quit deflecting to the unknowable

You neglected to mention any yet you claim to know many

Does an atheist/agnostic know things to be true for all people at all times or not?


No, the axiom that all truths are true for all people got destroyed by a vast array of quantum experiments.

That one doesn't hold either, sorry.

Edit:

Not to mention, relativity doesn't need help from quantum mechanics for that one, it's capable of refuting it on it's own.

Edit #2:

The one weird conspiracy theory I do believe directly contradicts the axiom as well, as I believe timelines necessarily converge and sometimes little historical details get garbled... ie, not everyone got to the present through the exact same past.
Dg west deptford Offline
#171 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Ben it is interesting that you bring up 3n +1

Emet is the Hebrew word for 3 perfect Hebrew letters that mean truth.

Can someone type out those 3 Hebrew characters?

Hebrew letters have numbers assigned to them

But I digress
bgz Offline
#172 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
Ben it is interesting that you bring up 3n +1

Emet is the Hebrew word for 3 perfect Hebrew letters that mean truth.

Can someone type out those 3 Hebrew characters?

Hebrew letters have numbers assigned to them

But I digress


Search for Collatz Conjecture... has nothing to do with Hebrew symbology... like at all.
Brewha Offline
#173 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
Knowable things are our focus guys quit deflecting to the unknowable

You neglected to mention any yet you claim to know many

Does an atheist/agnostic know things to be true for all people at all times or not?

Ok, the earth has a positive gravity, for everyone everywhere.

I know this to be true. What of it?
DrafterX Offline
#174 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
That's deep man... Mellow
Brewha Offline
#175 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Axl wrote it….
DrafterX Offline
#176 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
Thought I recognized it.. Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#177 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Dg west deptford wrote:
Ben it is interesting that you bring up 3n +1

Emet is the Hebrew word for 3 perfect Hebrew letters that mean truth.

Can someone type out those 3 Hebrew characters?

Hebrew letters have numbers assigned to them

But I digress

אֶמֶת

the dots below the letters are the vowel sounds. The first letter is Aleph which is silent and takes on the the three dot vowel below it to sound like "eh"...as in "meh".
It is read right to left.
I'm old enough that it spells EMES (eh-mehs). But they changed the alphabet several years ago (due to more than one letter having the same sound) so it is now pronounced EMET...the last letter/consonant on the left end would have been pronounced like "s" unless it had a dot inside of it which would make it sound like "t".

Ephraim
Dg west deptford Offline
#178 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Thank you Ephraim!
Tremendous wealth of knowledge to be discovered in every jot & tittle of the Word

As Drafter said,
Apples of gold in settings of silver!


As for Brews question,

The what of it? Is, you sir, are no Agnostic. (Not to worry, no one is)


As for bgz's knowledge claim, is that absolutely true?

Daniel
bgz Offline
#179 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
So let me get this straight, your belief is everyone is a Christian, just not everyone knows it?

If so, that's a very egocentric view of the world... "My views are the only correct views, those that deny it just haven't realized it yet".

That's a very toxic position to take.
Dg west deptford Offline
#180 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
No & feeble as usual.

My assertion is everyone knows God exists.

Some just choose to suppress that truth

The devils believe. Does that make them Christian?

You're not as bright as you like to think are you?
bgz Offline
#181 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
No & feeble as usual.

My assertion is everyone knows God exists.


That's the same thing I said... you believe your god is the one true god, and because you believe that everyone knows God exists, then everyone is of your god(little g intentional).

Dg west deptford wrote:

Some just choose to suppress that truth


Who's truth? Your truth? This only validates my assessment of your beliefs.

Dg west deptford wrote:

The devils believe. Does that make them Christian?


Another nonsense statement. Define devil. Which devils? I thought there was only one "Devil"(Big D intentional).


Dg west deptford wrote:

You're not as bright as you like to think are you?


There's too big of a gap between you and I, you're obviously far too intelligent for me.
bgz Offline
#182 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Oh ya... round 2 mother f*ckerr
Brewha Offline
#183 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
So……You believe that atheists know god exists an refuse to believe it.

As an agnostic, I do not know if god exists.
And I believe that you know that - and refuse to believe it.

Guess it’s just a perspective thing….
bgz Offline
#184 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
And as an atheist of the agnostic variety, nor do I know if god exists...

The difference between me and an agnostic is I don't really care if it exists or not.

Because... even if it does exist, I believe there's no way you puny azz mortals have any clue whatsoever about the nature of it's existence, let alone what it wants... like at all, period, end of story.

It's all perspective.
bgz Offline
#185 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Oh, I don't give any weight to angels and demons either.

I put them right there with the likes of Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Baal, Molech, Ra, God, Batman, etc...
Dg west deptford Offline
#186 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
But you could be wrong about that. (At least according to you)

Dg west deptford Offline
#187 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Brewha wrote:
So……You believe that atheists know god exists an refuse to believe it.

As an agnostic, I do not know if god exists.
And I believe that you know that - and refuse to believe it.

Guess it’s just a perspective thing….



An Agnostic that knows things. Many things! Even things that are true for all people at all times.

Yep, uh huh.
Any other knowledge claims there, guy who is self described as being without knowledge?

Contradictions amount to lieing
Dg west deptford Offline
#188 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Brewha wrote:
I believe that each of us comes to know god in their own way.

People should be have the freedom of and from religion. And that’s all I have to say about that.

Socialism and capitalism are a good mix. Either one by itself is a gothic tragedy.
So it seems it’s about balance.



I believe all these things too except big G & my social charity to not be run by government.

Let's move forward agreeing to accept you borrowing my worldview to hold on to the self ascribed title of Agnostic all the while secretly knowing things can be known.

Seriously give it a rest your refuted.
bgz Offline
#189 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
An Agnostic that knows things. Many things! Even things that are true for all people at all times.

Yep, uh huh.


That's a false statement. Experimental evidence destroyed it. Sorry.

Dg west deptford wrote:

Any other knowledge claims there, guy who is self described as being without knowledge?

Contradictions amount to lieing


Again, a nothing burger statement.

The premise has been invalidated, any weird conclusion based on the premise is also invalidated. Sorry.

To make a long story short...

Your world view doesn't fit the data.

That's all that really needs to be said.
Dg west deptford Offline
#190 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
In the womb he took his brother by the heel,

And in his maturity he contended with God.

Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;

He wept and sought His favor.


Let it go Ben your self refuted as usual
bgz Offline
#191 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
You believe you are correct and have won this back and forth sh*t fest (I wouldn't call it an argument... oh, and I'm guilty too), and that's ok...

As I refuse to believe in your god, you refuse to believe in facts.

I'll let you have it, done with my coffee.
Dg west deptford Offline
#192 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Ok then, I forgive your guilt, (please forgive mine)
I won't ask what facts I refuse to believe

Good thread
Thanks
Brewha Offline
#193 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
An Agnostic that knows things. Many things! Even things that are true for all people at all times.

Yep, uh huh.
Any other knowledge claims there, guy who is self described as being without knowledge?

Contradictions amount to lieing

It’s a cute game to have your own special definitions for words, but if you really don’t understand what Agnostic Believes are I suggest you look it up.
Brewha Offline
#194 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
bgz wrote:
And as an atheist of the agnostic variety, nor do I know if god exists...

The difference between me and an agnostic is I don't really care if it exists or not.

Because... even if it does exist, I believe there's no way you puny azz mortals have any clue whatsoever about the nature of it's existence, let alone what it wants... like at all, period, end of story.

It's all perspective.

An interesting perspective is that to be the Christian God, he would exist outside of timespace. Making his existence incomprehensible to us.

Also, If we were created to have free will and to choose for ourselves what to believe, then God would have to “stay out of it”. Which fits, because it seem that most every god has gone to a great deal of trouble to cover their tracks.

But in the end, it seems obvious that if god did not exist - it would be necessary to create him.
bgz Offline
#195 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023


Yeah, I would agree with the necessity part of that... Hate to break it down to this... but the elf on the shelf works...

Needed something to keep the people in check, we're animals after all.
Speyside2 Offline
#196 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Yep, no way God can exist because there is no empirical evidence God exists. On the other hand science can prove that everything is mutable or immutable. Then we get to that quantum wave thingy creating reality. If you believe one guy then everything is immutable. If you believe that other guy then everything is mutable. One has to be correct, right?

Yet physics is immutable and my actions are mutable. Hmmmm? I guess existing quantum wave theory is incomplete. Eventually it will be fully understood and therefore complete.

You know what? If God did exist this would make sense. One could say God's will makes so much seem immutable, yet God gives humanity the gift of free will, and when God decides to change or create something that is what happens.

Also one could say science simply explains God's will where that is possible. So it totally makes sense to laugh at Christians and compare God to an elf on a shelf.

I guess I am really stupid. Really smart folks tell my why God doesn't exist, yet I know God. I could go on, but why? I know everything here is an illusion. Quantum physics proves that according to smart folks, and I am really stupid.

Yet I digress. Here is where I am supposed to get religious on you. But the truth is that religion does not matter, only God does.

You either believe or you do not. By Gods love and grace nonbelievers can and are individually saved.
bgz Offline
#197 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Speyside2 wrote:

Also one could say science simply explains God's will where that is possible. So it totally makes sense to laugh at Christians and compare God to an elf on a shelf.


Taken in context it was a reply to:

"Bruwha" wrote:

But in the end, it seems obvious that if god did not exist - it would be necessary to create him.


Why was it necessary to create god? Because left to their own accord people are animals.

On another note, I do envy believers over one thing... they are so certain in their mind that God exists that they just know it.

I don't think I've ever been so certain of something that wasn't actually 100% probability...

To have that level of belief to just "know" you are right about the nature of everything... that's a feeling I may never know.

DG talks of this as it's a bad thing... to not know something, it's bad to not know... I have no qualms saying I don't know if I do in fact not know... it's not a character flaw, it's a trait of a truthful being.
rfenst Offline
#198 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,100
bgz wrote:
So let me get this straight, your belief is everyone is a Christian, just not everyone knows it?

If so, that's a very egocentric view of the world... "My views are the only correct views, those that deny it just haven't realized it yet".

That's a very toxic position to take.

My religious perspective is that the Messiah has not come yet. Christians believe he already came once in the form of Jesus. When the Messiah does come, Jews will ask if he was here earlier in the form of Jesus. If so, I will sincerely convert to Christianity. If not, Christians will revert back to Judaism. Either way we are all on the same page.
RayR Offline
#199 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,796

Sounds like you are sitting on the fence Robert, teetering back and forth, questioning your faith.

I heard some people say Obama was the Messiah...or was it the Anti-Christ? Think
Brewha Offline
#200 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Speyside2 wrote:
Yep, no way God can exist because there is no empirical evidence God exists. On the other hand science can prove that everything is mutable or immutable. Then we get to that quantum wave thingy creating reality. If you believe one guy then everything is immutable. If you believe that other guy then everything is mutable. One has to be correct, right?

Yet physics is immutable and my actions are mutable. Hmmmm? I guess existing quantum wave theory is incomplete. Eventually it will be fully understood and therefore complete.

You know what? If God did exist this would make sense. One could say God's will makes so much seem immutable, yet God gives humanity the gift of free will, and when God decides to change or create something that is what happens.

Also one could say science simply explains God's will where that is possible. So it totally makes sense to laugh at Christians and compare God to an elf on a shelf.

I guess I am really stupid. Really smart folks tell my why God doesn't exist, yet I know God. I could go on, but why? I know everything here is an illusion. Quantum physics proves that according to smart folks, and I am really stupid.

Yet I digress. Here is where I am supposed to get religious on you. But the truth is that religion does not matter, only God does.

You either believe or you do not. By Gods love and grace nonbelievers can and are individually saved.

Speyside, seems you said earlier that you morn (read pity) those who are not saved by Christ. While that is fine and heartful thing, saying it to those people is not. It is condescending.

I do not laugh at peoples believes. For me, I embrace what I see as the truth of the matter: no one really knows.
And people, even agnostics and atheists, need their believes. Who am I to look down them for that?

As I suggested earlier; what if it is by design, God's will even, for us each to have to find the answers for ourselves?
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