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Electric vehicles - what does the future hold?
BuckyB93 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Posting this here because it shouldn't be a political thing but a tech thing.

Are EV's and green energy proposals a long term solution? Some say yes, some say no.

Re: EV's

Here's one discussion that says EV's, as we currently have them, are not an answer.

Snippet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV9ijKAubfU

Full Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sa5JkeerRo
Gene363 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
Good discussion of the big pocture.

Energy is the key, too many fans of EVs fail to consider the big picture. The same is true for hydrogen-powered vehicles.

EV are NOT zero emissions, they never were and will never be zero emissions until we can change the laws of physics.

EVs should be renamed, external combustion vehicles.
clintCigar Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 05-14-2019
Posts: 4,356
I haven't watched your video posts yet but I agree it's NOT the answer. The massive amount of battery disposal that will be required is almost as bad or worse than the fossil fuel carbon emissions imo. I feel like clean burning fuels/gas is a better solution. Like some of the hydrogen vehicles that are available.
HockeyDad Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 44,265
Wrong forum noob.

(Government mandated = political. That’s settled science)
Stogie1020 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 3,719
Part of me feels like this is akin to when we switched from glass bottles to plastic because it required less fuel to transport (among other lesser reasons), so now we have all these single use plastic bottles but we saved fuel in transporting them. Also, "Save the trees" so here is a plastic grocery bag. Woops.
Gene363 Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
HockeyDad wrote:
Wrong forum noob.

(Government mandated = political. That’s settled science)


Never mind the corporate thieves that want taxpayers to pay for their gambling costs. The basic science does not support the mandate change to EVs.
Gene363 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
The reality of California energy policy;, destroying a repairable nuclear power plant.

Inside the Decommissioning of San Onofre Nuclear Power Station

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQgJkzs63oo&t=475s
MACS Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 76,501
When electric motors can move giant ships, airplanes, trains, and tractor trailers... we could start to see a blip. But I read that all the crap we're doing now will "supposedly" only drop the temp in 30 years by 1/100th of a degree.

And while we still need to transport people and goods long distances... and have reliable power for these EV's... the carbon energy infrastructure must remain in place.

Lets not talk about what farming for the lithium does to the planet.
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 96,601
Are we using EVs to farm da chit..?? Huh
BuckyB93 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
One of the largest dairy farms in MA has an onsite digesting system that composts cow $hit and organic matter. Siphons off the gas, burns it to run a generator to make electricity.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/jordan-dairy-farm-rutland-massachusetts-turning-cow-poop-into-power/

A good friend of mine is part of this family dairy business. I'm sure there are a lot of similar things across the US. It's not the answer to the problem of global warming but hey, harvesting gasses from cow $hit and other vegetable waste is a no brainier if its economically viable.

With that said, I'm not convinced that there is a realistic man made threat on the global scale for our planet's evolution. This rock we live on has undergone major temperature shifts over and over again well before humans arrived on the scene.

To think that we, the little fleas living on the skin of the Earth, can control the climate or the weather is just plain silly.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 96,601
AOC is gonna be pissed... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 18,842
One of our local farms uses methane for fuel. They also have a feed formula that decreases methane production. They also are the manufacturer of cow pots.
Gene363 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
Burning methane adds to CO2 problems, no credit.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 13,253
Still voting nuclear. It's only scary in the movies, and during earthquakes/tsunamis
BuckyB93 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Gene363 wrote:
Burning methane adds to CO2 problems, no credit.


Sacrilege!
BuckyB93 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Sunoverbeach wrote:
Still voting nuclear. It's only scary in the movies, and during earthquakes/tsunamis


You have my vote
frankj1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 42,739
Sunoverbeach wrote:
Still voting nuclear. It's only scary in the movies, and during earthquakes/tsunamis

ok, but I still won't swim in the ocean off Plymouth...
Sunoverbeach Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 13,253
Me neither, but mostly because the Atlantic is friggin cold up there
frankj1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 42,739
um, not the beach in Plymouth!
MACS Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 76,501
frankj1 wrote:
um, not the beach in Plymouth!


It's the shaahks, right? Jaws ate people offuh Maatha's Vinyid.

Allegedly.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 13,253
That too. I definitely wouldn't swim with shaahks
Brewha Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
Gene363 wrote:
Good discussion of the big pocture.

Energy is the key, too many fans of EVs fail to consider the big picture. The same is true for hydrogen-powered vehicles.

EV are NOT zero emissions, they never were and will never be zero emissions until we can change the laws of physics.

EVs should be renamed, external combustion vehicles.

EV's are zero emission if the power plant is - Nuclear, solar, wind, tidal, geo, etc.
They are one step in a big picture problem.

However, even when they are powered by coal or gas burning power plants, they are far, far cleaner and more efficient.

This is why they are a good first step. Add to that the 20 cent to the dollar vs gas operating cost, plus way lower maintenance and better performance.

That is why all of the car manufactures and killing themselves to get in the game.

I have one, and if you did you would wonder why you waited.
Brewha Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
MACS wrote:
When electric motors can move giant ships, airplanes, trains, and tractor trailers... we could start to see a blip. But I read that all the crap we're doing now will "supposedly" only drop the temp in 30 years by 1/100th of a degree.

And while we still need to transport people and goods long distances... and have reliable power for these EV's... the carbon energy infrastructure must remain in place.

Lets not talk about what farming for the lithium does to the planet.

The first EV semi trucks are now being delivered to Frito Lay and Amazon.
And while electricity may never be the right answer for rocket ships (in this century) electric motors are not unknown in the Navy. Even this early on.

Mining Lithium vs Gas and Oil:
Less damaging to the environment to refine lithium, iron and phosphates. and we don't burn them into the air...
BuckyB93 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Brewha wrote:
EV's are zero emission if the power plant is - Nuclear, solar, wind, tidal, geo, etc.
They are one step in a big picture problem.

However, even when they are powered by coal or gas burning power plants, they are far, far cleaner and more efficient.

This is why they are a good first step. Add to that the 20 cent to the dollar vs gas operating cost, plus way lower maintenance and better performance.

That is why all of the car manufactures and killing themselves to get in the game.

I have one, and if you did you would wonder why you waited.


And you know this how? From your 6 months of owning a Telsa? EV's rank near the bottom of the list for reliability. Fact, not opinion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html.

Your big picture is focused on your narrow vision. Maybe try to take the blinders off and see things outside of your small selected world.

20 cents on the dollar as compared to gas at the pump. Yep, got it. You've been beating this drum since since you bought your Tesla.

Yet you ignore the facts on the larger scale on everything else that is involved. I posted a couple links that might be of interest but you have a phobia of YouTube videos from outside sources that don't agree with your mindset on this topic.

Are you willing to provide or post some contrary facts (not opinion) on this topic or should we just trust your experience? You probably have been on Zoom meetings with some super important people that have information that we couldn't understand but it's out there if we wanted to look for it.

It's pretty vanilla... seems like I've heard this claim before...
dkeage Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2004
Posts: 14,554
BuckyB93 wrote:
And you know this how? From your 6 months of owning a Telsa. EV's rank near the bottom of the list for reliability. Fact, not opinion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html
[/h].

Your big picture is focused on your narrow vision. Maybe try to take the blinders off and see things outside of your small selected world.

20 cents on the dollar as compared to gas at the pump. Yep, got it. You've been beating this drum since since you bought your Tesla.

Yet you ignore the facts on the larger scale on everything else that is involved. I posted a couple links that might be of interest but you have a phobia of YouTube videos from outside sources that don't agree with your mindset on this topic.

Are you willing to provide or post some contrary facts (not opinion) on this topic or should we just trust your experience? You probably have been on Zoom meetings with some super important people that have information that we couldn't understand but it's out there if we wanted to look for it.

It's pretty vanilla... seems like I've heard this claim before...



Ooh ooh. Mr Kotter!
Abrignac Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 16,296
Brewha wrote:
The first EV semi trucks are now being delivered to Frito Lay and Amazon.
And while electricity may never be the right answer for rocket ships (in this century) electric motors are not unknown in the Navy. Even this early on.

Mining Lithium vs Gas and Oil:
Less damaging to the environment to refine lithium, iron and phosphates. and we don't burn them into the air...


This is a joke. Current technology limits range to 250 miles per charge with a 90% recharge taking about an hour. Top speed is about 60 mph.

Now for the particulars. That range is on flat land which probably equates to no more than 50% of OTR miles. That range will drop by half going across hilly and mountainous terrain. At that rate a driver will be hard pressed to drive 400 miles in a single 11 hour driving shift. Most drivers can drive 700 in a diesel truck. As a result, shipping costs will double. Can we say inflation?
BuckyB93 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
dkeage wrote:
Ooh ooh. Mr Kotter!


This makes me laugh, I heard the Welcome Back Kottter them song at the grocery store the other day and thought to myself... there are probably 10 people in the store that know this song. Yep... I think I'm officially on the cusp of being old.
Brewha Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
BuckyB93 wrote:
And you know this how? From your 6 months of owning a Telsa? EV's rank near the bottom of the list for reliability. Fact, not opinion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technologies-make-evs-less-reliable.html.

Your big picture is focused on your narrow vision. Maybe try to take the blinders off and see things outside of your small selected world.

20 cents on the dollar as compared to gas at the pump. Yep, got it. You've been beating this drum since since you bought your Tesla.

Yet you ignore the facts on the larger scale on everything else that is involved. I posted a couple links that might be of interest but you have a phobia of YouTube videos from outside sources that don't agree with your mindset on this topic.

Are you willing to provide or post some contrary facts (not opinion) on this topic or should we just trust your experience? You probably have been on Zoom meetings with some super important people that have information that we couldn't understand but it's out there if we wanted to look for it.

It's pretty vanilla... seems like I've heard this claim before...

WTF Bucky - what are asking me?

My point is this is a good 10-20 year transition path. Not next Tuesday - 10-20 years.

This is not my narrow vision. World leaders, governments and corporations are moving to EV's for practical reasons.

This is a large and complicated subject. Where would you like to start?
BuckyB93 Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
EV vehicles, at it stands now, do have their place. EVs are a niche market for short or medium commutes, or for daily drives where one can plug them in and recharge at the end of the day. They also have a niche for "last mile" concept where daily package and deliveries are local within a certain radius (UPS, Post office, Amazon and such). Then the delivery vehicles go back home and park themselves to recharge for the next day.

EV's will probably not, in my lifetime, be a solution to long travel or realistically used for transporting goods beyond about a couple hundred miles. Hopefully I'm wrong but the cards not in their favor.
Brewha Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
Abrignac wrote:
This is a joke. Current technology limits range to 250 miles per charge with a 90% recharge taking about an hour. Top speed is about 60 mph.

Now for the particulars. That range is on flat land which probably equates to no more than 50% of OTR miles. That range will drop by half going across hilly and mountainous terrain. At that rate a driver will be hard pressed to drive 400 miles in a single 11 hour driving shift. Most drivers can drive 700 in a diesel truck. As a result, shipping costs will double. Can we say inflation?

So...I work in the Logistics field. Frito and Amazon are some of our larger customers.

And this is a huge win for them in terms of cost for their relentless route deliveries to your local grocery stores, cross docking and spoke distributors. You are guessing at the application of these vehicles. They are not driving potato chips coast to coast.

And amazon is using them for "last mile" deliveries - code for B2B and B2C shipping.




Now you may not believe me.
But I was putting robotic carton palletizers in the Topeka Frito Lay plant 25 years ago.
I kind of know their business.
BuckyB93 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Brewha wrote:
WTF Bucky - what are asking me?

My point is this is a good 10-20 year transition path. Not next Tuesday - 10-20 years.

This is not my narrow vision. World leaders, governments and corporations are moving to EV's for practical reasons.

This is a large and complicated subject. Where would you like to start?


I'm not asking anything from you. I quoted your post(s). Your words not mine. See... I try to use facts and supply references to support the facts as I see them.

Your "facts" are based on what? Because you bought a Tesla three months ago? (golf clap) .

I don't see you providing any references or independent analysis that supports your position or can dispute the facts and references that I provided.
Brewha Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
BuckyB93 wrote:
EV vehicles, at it stands now, do have their place. EVs are a niche market for short or medium commutes, or for daily drives where one can plug them in and recharge at the end of the day. They also have a niche for "last mile" concept where daily package and deliveries are local within a certain radius (UPS, Post office, Amazon and such). Then the delivery vehicles go back home and park themselves to recharge for the next day.

EV's will probably not, in my lifetime, be a solution to long travel or realistically used for transporting goods beyond about a couple hundred miles. Hopefully I'm wrong but the cards not in their favor.

Well don't forget about PEHV's or the growing super charger networks.
Hell this is the early days.

"Long travel" is best by air. Or train. Or ICE.
No augment on that - today.

I think "every day" and "most of the time" is really the subject.
HockeyDad Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 44,265
Nobody calls it ICE. That’s ghey.
dkeage Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2004
Posts: 14,554
HockeyDad wrote:
Nobody calls it ICE. That’s ghey.

So, you’ve made it to Montrose?
Abrignac Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 16,296
Brewha wrote:
So...I work in the Logistics field. Frito and Amazon are some of our larger customers.

And this is a huge win for them in terms of cost for their relentless route deliveries to your local grocery stores, cross docking and spoke distributors. You are guessing at the application of these vehicles. They are not driving potato chips coast to coast.

And amazon is using them for "last mile" deliveries - code for B2B and B2C shipping.




Now you may not believe me.
But I was putting robotic carton palletizers in the Topeka Frito Lay plant 25 years ago.
I kind of know their business.


This kinda makes my point. EV technology is nowhere near where it needs to be to mandate the end of other technologies. In fact, I’d be very surprised if petroleum burning engines are replaced in medium and long haul applications.

Also, I suspect local delivery will fail to yield the desired results. In town stop and go traffic will likely reveal that parallel fleets are needed as many trucks that have multiple stops will not be able to deliver their full loads before their batteries weaken. There won’t be time to return to a charging terminal and finish a route before businesses receiving hours end.
BuckyB93 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
dkeage wrote:
So, you’ve made it to Montrose?


One of the best drum solos ever. But you spelled it wrong. Montreux not Montrose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhyakhoE4CM
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
Clearly, some did not watch the video. They desperately want to be a tool for change, but they end up just a a tool.

Even in a fantasy world where making EVs and their batteries is totally emission free, let me know when electrical energy production has been increased to equal the energy output of refineries and you might be able to talk intelligently on the topic.
BuckyB93 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 12,833
Some people have a hard time accepting inconvenient truths after they take the bait and propaganda that has been fed to them.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 52,916
Gene363 wrote:
Clearly, some did not watch the video. They desperately want to be a tool for change, but they end up just a a tool.

Even in a fantasy world where making EVs and their batteries is totally emission free, let me know when electrical energy production has been increased to equal the energy output of refineries and you might be able to talk intelligently on the topic.



Just finished your vid...Here is California closing a nuclear power plant while they're mandating no gas powered vehicle sales in 2035.

Insanity.

They have rolling blackouts now, what's going to happen when they rely harder on a weaker grid? They're cutting their throats with a knife in each hand working towards the middle. People are just fine with it too. We just had an election and Florida was the only state that rebuked the DNC not only for their Covid mandated games but for their CRT and grooming of children. We did what needed to be done. Pennsylvania, NY, Michigan, Illinois, California, New Jersey...kept them in power and doubled down. Can't fix stupid.
Brewha Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
HockeyDad wrote:
Nobody calls it ICE. That’s ghey.

HD, Ice-T would like a word with you...
Gene363 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 28,795
BuckyB93 wrote:
Some people have a hard time accepting inconvenient truths after they take the bait and propaganda that has been fed to them.


The worst are those that should know better but keep their eyes and ears closed, and continue to advocate for these crazy policies.
Brewha Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
Abrignac wrote:
This kinda makes my point. EV technology is nowhere near where it needs to be to mandate the end of other technologies. In fact, I’d be very surprised if petroleum burning engines are replaced in medium and long haul applications.

Also, I suspect local delivery will fail to yield the desired results. In town stop and go traffic will likely reveal that parallel fleets are needed as many trucks that have multiple stops will not be able to deliver their full loads before their batteries weaken. There won’t be time to return to a charging terminal and finish a route before businesses receiving hours end.

Let's not mis-represent the few states that have mandates. There are no mandated to "end technologies".
In CA, in 13 years, you cannot buy a NEW car in the state unless it is EV or PEHV (runs on gas).
Drive the wheels off your 2034 model Hemi. Buy a PEHV and fill that tank every week if you like.

The math I have look at and test says that delivery vehicles are an ideal application for EVs. And they don't even need a 500 kWh battery like the semi are getting.
Many companies are tooling up for these. Walmart, Amazon and others are in bed with Rivian, Canoo and others. It's a big wave that is coming...

I agree with you that some applications will stay gas powered for decades to come. Most notable Air.
Brewha Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
BuckyB93 wrote:
Some people have a hard time accepting inconvenient truths after they take the bait and propaganda that has been fed to them.

That is no lie...
Sunoverbeach Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 13,253
I searched YT, and only found drag races. You may well be correct, Rick. I was only theorizing it may be more competitive in and out of corners since I knew there was no chance at straight acceleration. May have to go to super/hypercar levels to have a shot. I'm willing to test it, if you're all willing to fund it.

On the towing, an EV suffers. The Fast Lane Truck channel has a video where they towed identical 6k pound trailers with a gas GMC Denali and the Ford Lightning to compare range. The load took the expected 240mi range of the Lightning down to an estimated 95ish miles. They stopped short at 85mi due to lack of charging stations on the route
Brewha Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
Interesting reading on delivery trucks:

https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2022/07/12/walmart-to-purchase-4-500-canoo-electric-delivery-vehicles-to-be-used-for-last-mile-deliveries-in-support-of-its-growing-ecommerce-business

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/amazons-electric-delivery-vehicles-from-rivian-roll-out-across-the-u-s
MACS Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 76,501
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance. - Thomas Sowell
Brewha Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 11,050
Are you trying to be ironic?
clintCigar Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 05-14-2019
Posts: 4,356
Sunoverbeach wrote:
On the towing, an EV suffers. The Fast Lane Truck channel has a video where they towed identical 6k pound trailers with a gas GMC Denali and the Ford Lightning to compare range. The load took the expected 240mi range of the Lightning down to an estimated 95ish miles. They stopped short at 85mi due to lack of charging stations on the route

The new GMC Denali EV truck costs around $108k and will only tow 9.5k lbs. What a joke. I can tow 1.5x more and my truck cost 1/4 of that. Granted I did buy mine used though.
clintCigar Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 05-14-2019
Posts: 4,356
Brewha wrote:
This is why they are a good first step. Add to that the 20 cent to the dollar vs gas operating cost, plus way lower maintenance and better performance.

That is why all of the car manufactures and killing themselves to get in the game.

I have one, and if you did you would wonder why you waited.

Watch "New Study on Electric Cars Shocks the Entire Car Industry"
https://youtu.be/TfEwp7BUbUo

How much does it cost to replace your battery? And what about battery disposal?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 52,916
clintCigar wrote:
Watch "New Study on Electric Cars Shocks the Entire Car Industry"
https://youtu.be/TfEwp7BUbUo

How much does it cost to replace your battery? And what about battery disposal?


Great vid...well done.

Far cry from 20 cents on a dollar claim, especially when I'm still tooling around in a 2011 F-250.
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