I am getting a bit confused here. Now I thought the joya De's were the ones that made the councul, and Hoya made the robustos, but on the auctions it was the other way around. IN fact I just checked the CI website, and there the Joya does make the Counsul! But on the auctions, there is a box of Joya Robusto, which is not on the CI website. Confused? I sure the hell am, the Hoya and Joya are different cigars, in my mind the Joya much better.