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Last post 6 years ago by delta1. 78 replies replies.
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USS Fitzgerald....
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
dstieger wrote:
Agreed....whether that container ship turned or reversed...or whatever it might have done...will not excuse the crew of the Fitzgerald much...if at all...the characterization in some news reports that the Fitzgerald is some sort of victim that got rammed ....almost sounds silly....I don't care how extraordinarily negligent the commercial ship may have acted...there is no way in hell that the destroyer should have been in position to get skewered in the open ocean...


While I agree with you in theory, I don't want to pass judgement on the crew of the Fitzgerald quite yet. There still is one reason they might have ended up in the path of that merchant, and that's machinery failure. Not saying it happened, we don't know and haven't been told yet, but if something went wrong on the Fitzgerald, then that could easily leave them stranded in the path of an unmanuverable behemoth.

Other than that, yeah, the Fitz likely fvcked up. Managing to get hit by a single screw ship that takes miles to speed up, slow down, stop or even turn.
dstieger Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
You are correct, of course. If the Fitzgerald was DIW and totally dark, it is possible that they could neither detect nor move. And, even then....in busy transit lanes....there's no way that I can imagine that they wouldn't have (additional) S&A lookouts with lights, whistles, NVG's, etc.... would also be pretty hard to imagine the skipper in his rack during such an event
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 121,359
Yup, right now, there are a lot of unanswered questions about what happened. This is a WTF of colossal proportions.
dstieger Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I do want to state that I am grievously saddened at the loss of life and for the Sailors' families. I also am quite certain that there will be a finding of gross negligence on the part of the civilian mariners of the Crystal. My tone above may belie those thoughts....it's just that with tours on seven ships, years as OOD afloat and CICWO, I am very well aware that there is no room for tolerance of inept, careless ship handling/operation....and I can't see my way to a plausible scenario that involves proactive, sound seamanship by the destroyer.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,309
I wonder who fell asleep in the crow's nest?
Abrignac Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,217
dstieger wrote:
You are correct, of course. If the Fitzgerald was DIW and totally dark, it is possible that they could neither detect nor move. And, even then....in busy transit lanes....there's no way that I can imagine that they wouldn't have (additional) S&A lookouts with lights, whistles, NVG's, etc.... would also be pretty hard to imagine the skipper in his rack during such an event


Unless it had just gone DIW and GQ hadn't yet been piped over the 1MC.
Abrignac Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,217
It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Prayers for the lost souls and their families.
Bur Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 07-31-2012
Posts: 5,638
dstieger, you a SWO-Dog? I'm a recovered one-did one tour then decided I wanted to play with bombs.

While I think most the accountability will be on the CRYSTAL, yeah, the bridge watch team on the FITZ is gonna have some hard questions, and to live with the death of 7 crewmates. The Skipper has a long road of recovery ahead both physically and emotionally-a friend here in San Dog knows him and is trying to get in contact.

FC1 Reihm is a full-on hero, knew he was gonna get "dogged" into the compartment when he went back to see if he could get anyone else from what I'm hearing. And it was pretty close to his last underway.
dstieger Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Bur wrote:
dstieger, you a SWO-Dog?


Mustang....Supply Corps, but SWO pin without the pork chop....first SK qualified as OOD(UW), or so I was told....drove a lot of hours, mostly on FFG's, but bridge and CIC time on larger hulls, too
DrafterX Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
Crew members aboard the USS Fitzgerald "should have spoken up" long before the American warship collided with a massive cargo vessel off the coast of Japan last month, U.S. officials said on Friday.

"There were many people who should have spoken up," one U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak publicly about an ongoing investigation, told Fox News.

The "rules of the road" at sea mandate states that any ship should keep out of the way of any ship on her right, or starboard, side.

The USS Fitzgerald was struck on her starboard side on June 17 by a cargo ship three times larger than the American warship. Seven American sailors were killed in the incident.

One U.S. official pointed to the U.S. Coast Guard's Navigation Rules & Regulations Handbook which clearly states this rule: "When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."

There are two navigation teams aboard every Navy warship, one on the bridge where the ship is driven and another team below the bridge in the combat information center, where a backup chart and radar team are located. This means there were two teams of sailors that missed recommending and taking "decisive and early action," the official told Fox News.


Film at 11.... Think



Doesn't really answer any questions... I wish more people knew what "Right of Way' actually means.. especially on da road..
Mellow
MACS Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,599
Pretty much what I said in post 42.
dstieger Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I'm grieving again...for the McCain Sailors, their families...and for my Navy...wtf....really...wtf
8trackdisco Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2004
Posts: 60,000
Maybe these captains should take some boaters saftey classes.

The North Koreans must be getting a great laugh. Embarrassing.

MACS Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,599
dstieger wrote:
I'm grieving again...for the McCain Sailors, their families...and for my Navy...wtf....really...wtf


I've been out for 10 years now. I don't know how long since you retired, but brother... it's not our Navy any more. 4 ships, over 12 years at sea, and nary a close call... let alone a full on collision. And any time there was a mishap of any sort, we got the snot trained out of us so it didn't happen again. How does this happen again so soon?
Gene363 Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,680
Taking selfies on the bridge, sending texts or playing video games because gender sensitivity training was more important than seamanship or discipline. I'm just guessing and I hope I'm wrong.
Burner02 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
Prayers out for the missing sailors and and their families.
TMCTLT Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 11-22-2007
Posts: 19,733
Burner02 wrote:
Prayers out for the missing sailors and and their families.




+1 Pray
Burner02 Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
US Navy dismisses 7th Fleet commander after deadly mishaps

The U.S. Navy has dismissed the commander of its 7th Fleet from duty after the fleet suffered its second deadly mishap in less than three months.

The Navy cited a loss of confidence in Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin’s ability to command, the Associated Press reported.

News that the decision was imminent was first reported by the Wall Street Journal.

The 7th Fleet has been involved in three collisions since January, the last two of which have resulted in the deaths of 17 sailors.

In the latest mishap, the USS John S. McCain collided with an oil tanker before dawn Monday near Singapore. Ten sailors were reported missing, but officials confirmed Tuesday that Navy divers had found the remains of some sailors in a flooded compartment.

In June, seven sailors died when the USS Fitzgerald and a container ship collided in waters off Japan.

In January, the USS Antietam guided missile cruiser ran aground near Yokosuka base, the home port of the 7th Fleet, and in May another cruiser, the USS Lake Champlain from the Navy's 3rd Fleet, had a minor collision with a South Korean fishing boat.

U.S. Pacific Fleet Commander Adm. Scott Swift told a news conference Tuesday that each of the incidents was "unique," but added that "they cannot be viewed in isolation."

Swift added the Navy would conduct an investigation "to find out if there is a common cause ... and if so, how do we solve that."

Navy Adm. John Richardson, the chief of naval operations, on Monday ordered a pause in 7th Fleet operations for the next few days to allow commanders to get together with leaders, sailors and command officials and identify any immediate steps that need to be taken to ensure safety.

A broader U.S. Navy review will look at the 7th Fleet's performance, including personnel, navigation capabilities, maintenance, equipment, surface warfare training, munitions, certifications and how sailors move through their careers. Richardson said the review will be conducted with the help of the Navy's office of the inspector general, the safety center and private companies that make equipment used by sailors.

DrafterX Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
Pray
dstieger Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Burner02 wrote:


The U.S. Navy has dismissed the commander of its 7th Fleet from duty


Good move.

But, I suspect that Aucoin had already presented reasons prior to the collisions. Because that was sort of sudden. What about the DESRON 15 Commodore? Is he still in place? Were either/both of the ships with the CARGRU/STRIKEGRU/CTF70? What about those commanders? Why 7thFLT? Why not PACFLT, too? McCain CO? Is he still in charge of that ship? Why did it take a flippin month or more to can the Fitzgerald CO? Should have been measured in hours, not weeks. I was on a ship that ran aground at 2:30 in the morning....routine ops...CO was asleep in his cabin. He was helo'd off by 1700 that same day and replaced by the Deputy Commodore
delta1 Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
not a good confidence building look for the most powerful Navy in the world...should we also look at the wisdom of routine maneuvers of some of our largest vessels in some of the narrowest and busiest waterways?
dstieger Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
delta1 wrote:
not a good confidence building look for the most powerful Navy in the world...should we also look at the wisdom of routine maneuvers of some of our largest vessels in some of the narrowest and busiest waterways?


McCain and Fitz are some of our 'smallest vessels' ...and as maneuverable as anything afloat longer than 50 feet.

And the mission of the US Navy is to maintain freedom of the seas for the commercial shipping into and out of those busy ports. The Navy operates into, out of, and from places like Singapore and Tokyo.....We've had bases (and ports of operation) in all the busiest ports of the world outside of perhaps mainland China, India and Russia for...ever. Avoiding places with other ships is not the answer.
rumraider Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 08-05-2012
Posts: 727
The vice admiral that was dismissed was already set to retire "in a couple weeks." He probably already has a civilian position lined up. He ain't hurt, it's just for show.
delta1 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
dstieger wrote:
McCain and Fitz are some of our 'smallest vessels' ...and as maneuverable as anything afloat longer than 50 feet.

And the mission of the US Navy is to maintain freedom of the seas for the commercial shipping into and out of those busy ports. The Navy operates into, out of, and from places like Singapore and Tokyo.....We've had bases (and ports of operation) in all the busiest ports of the world outside of perhaps mainland China, India and Russia for...ever. Avoiding places with other ships is not the answer.


I get that...I'm thinking that the local FD's do not routinely drive through some of the busiest places, even when drilling, unless there is an emergency...just thinking aloud...


...is there a possibility any of these collisions were intentional...just seems improbable that there can be a cluster of them like this...
dstieger Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
delta1 wrote:
I get that...I'm thinking that the local FD's do not routinely drive through some of the busiest places, even when drilling, unless there is an emergency...just thinking aloud...


...is there a possibility any of these collisions were intentional...just seems improbable that there can be a cluster of them like this...



Hope I didn't come off snippy....you're correct about where local ops are conducted. Or at least 'were' when I was driving...the only time were in port channel/shipping lanes was getting in and out. We high-tailed it out of the lanes before we started cutting circles in the ocean. I would doubt very much that either ship was loitering in the Straits of Malacca or outside Tokyo...could certainly be wrong about that, tho.

Can't wrap my brain around 'intentional'...nor the suggestion that our ships might have been 'hacked'.

A huge commercial vessel is just about the worst possible weapon against a destroyer that I could imagine....highly UNmaneuverable and very expensive to take off-line and repair...I suppose some rogue captain with a wild hair up his azz could do it during close ops in a strait/channel, but for an actual attack, small boats, ala Cole would be much more effective, easy, reliable...I'd think
Burner02 Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
dstieger wrote:
Good move.

But, I suspect that Aucoin had already presented reasons prior to the collisions. Because that was sort of sudden. What about the DESRON 15 Commodore? Is he still in place? Were either/both of the ships with the CARGRU/STRIKEGRU/CTF70? What about those commanders? Why 7thFLT? Why not PACFLT, too? McCain CO? Is he still in charge of that ship? Why did it take a flippin month or more to can the Fitzgerald CO? Should have been measured in hours, not weeks. I was on a ship that ran aground at 2:30 in the morning....routine ops...CO was asleep in his cabin. He was helo'd off by 1700 that same day and replaced by the Deputy Commodore



Sorry, but I will have to leave USN answers up to you, MACS and Ron. Wrong branch for me.

Did hear today that the Fitz is headed to the gulf coast for repairs.
Mr. Jones Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,359
Just saw they fired the Head ( or Vice?) Admiral of the 7th Fleet ? ....

Man...I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING...

With TRUMP @ the helm now and all his
"THE APPRENTICE" expertise...
He's going ALL LAND ( white house staff), Sea ( this Naval guy) AND AIR ( next, PROLLY the AirForce One pilot when he bangs Ivanka in the Luggage hold)....

BWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!

delta1 Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
dstieger wrote:
Hope I didn't come off snippy....



You didn't...not to me...I'm interested in your take, since I do not know a stitch about naval matters...just trying to determine the purpose for those routes and whether the objectives are worth the loss of lives...
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