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Last post 6 weeks ago by frankj1. 154 replies replies.
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Third party vote a wasted vote?
teedubbya Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 85,804
A vote for trump or Hillary was a wasted vote

I'm with Jade on this one
DrafterX Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
You always take Jade's side.. Not talking
teedubbya Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 85,804
His side sure is dreamy
frankj1 Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
teedubbya wrote:
A vote for trump or Hillary was a wasted vote

I'm with Jade on this one

me too (two?)
RMAN4443 Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,994
teedubbya wrote:
His backside sure is dreamy


Freak Not talking
JadeRose Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 17,570
My only regret for voting for Johnson/Weld was that it wasn't Weld/Johnson. I think Johnson was hitting the ganja a little too much a couple of times, there. Weld seemed to have more of his $hit together.

Either way, I knew I didn't want either mainstream choice. So I voted my conscience. I will never hold my nose and vote "lesser of 2 evils". Evil is evil. I didn't want it. Still don't.
JadeRose Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 17,570
DrafterX wrote:
You always take Jade's side.. Not talking




Come to my side, Drafter. We got better snacks!
teedubbya Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 85,804
True that boo.

I've always wanted to say that.
dstieger Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
I almost hope Ben Sasse doesn't get over his nausea. I've admired him since the first time I heard him speak in Congress. Not sure he's near high enough profile to give a 3rd party any traction at all, but I'd like to see him try.

I'm going recruiting.....I'm sure that critical mass would be unimaginable number of very big names, but let's give it a go....start with Sasse, Paul, McMullin, Lieberman, the Kochs, Kasich, Condy Rice, maybe even Bloomberg - not towards top of my list, but will bring a lot of media attention....who else?
DrafterX Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
You forgot McAfee.... I'm sure he'll run again... Mellow
dstieger Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
Yeah, he's ok....he can be on our team
Speyside Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 8,377
I would like to see Bill Gates and Warren Buffett endorse 3rd party voting. I think their endorsement would carry a lot of weight.
tailgater Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,469
Next election I'm voting for Frankie Tripod.

It will be a third-leg party vote.


frankj1 Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
tailgater wrote:
Next election I'm voting for Frankie Tripod.

It will be a third-leg party vote.



I appreciate your support, though it's not needed, for obvious reasons.
Buckwheat Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 11,720
Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé Biscuitbarrel is the candidate for me or anyone who believes in individual rights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4khxeru5hs

Beer
HuckFinn Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
In two party systems, winner take all systems, a third party vote is a wasted vote.
Unlike parlimentary systems where 3rd party candidates can win seats in legislatures.
frankj1 Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
15% of the vote gets funding and a seat on the debate stage...traction has to start somewhere.
HuckFinn Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 07-10-2017
Posts: 2,044
I've always reluctantly accepted our 2 party system as best as a win of a 34% of an electorate majority government might be divisive.

But parlimentary systems do seem to work pretty well in most of Europe. So there's that.
frankj1 Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
HuckFinn wrote:
I've always reluctantly accepted our 2 party system as best as a win of a 34% of an electorate majority government might be divisive.

But parlimentary systems do seem to work pretty well in most of Europe. So there's that.

yeah, maybe.

but in our system, living in MA a vote for Trump or Hillary would have been wasted votes. She didn't need mine and he had no shot at all to garner our electoral votes.

A third party vote was the only shot at having any impact. If you think about, there had to have been more states that my logic may have helped.
Phil222 Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,713
This is why we need Rank Choice Voting. No more wasted votes...
SteveS Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
Phil222 wrote:
This is why we need Rank Choice Voting. No more wasted votes...


that, is the very LAST thing we need ... CA elections are completely FUBARed now that rank choice has been adopted ...
dstieger Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
frankj1 wrote:
15% of the vote gets funding and a seat on the debate stage...traction has to start somewhere.

Yep.
frankj1 Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
dstieger wrote:
Yep.

thanks for getting it.

In MA we all know which party gets the electoral votes.
I'm sure several other states have similar red or blue automatic winners...why not make your vote matter and help set up an alternative?

Obviously The Johnson (thank you for that Jade) had no chance, fortunately! But no one would ever know of any viable third or even fourth party candidates if they never get on the Big Stage.

Can't speak for conservatives, but a guy like me has no candidates on the horizon.

15% is all it takes.


Phil222 Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,713
SteveS wrote:
that, is the very LAST thing we need ... CA elections are completely FUBARed now that rank choice has been adopted ...


What happened?
tailgater Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,469
It is my understanding that Rank Choice only works for multi seat ballots.
The Presidency is a single seat, so ranking your 2nd or 3rd choice won't matter unless your 1st choice is either elected or eliminated. In other words, you guy either won or lost before your 2nd vote even gets counted.

In an election for, say, the local School Committee, this works fine.

dstieger Offline
#126 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
CSPAN had a guy on this morning from 'Unite America'...they're dedicated to getting 'Independent' candidates elected to office. It initially sounded like they dovetail with my new movement. But the more, I listened, the more I was not so sure. They also are motivated by disgust for the two parties that are both mostly about power and domination of the other.

I think that subtle differences are critical, however. They seem to believe that a groundswell of independents in Washington would upset the Dem/GOP swampy applecart. The idea that independents should be united strikes me strange. I think they have a fundamental flaw in highlighting 'independent' in their mission. I think Frank's right that we need a third party to assert any power and have a hope of being financially viable. Unite America and I probably target the same prospective 'politicians', but I can't see a movement gaining any momentum unless they can come together with a party, name, slogans, banner, etc. Seems that goes against being independent. I maybe picking nits, but I need to learn more about these guys before getting behind them
Phil222 Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2017
Posts: 1,713
Tail, I agree that it would probably work better at the state level, but it could work for the presidential elections too. The way it should work is if a third-party candidate receives 15% of first place votes, then that should be enough to get them on the “big stage” as Frank put it...(government funding, debates, etc.).

With RCV, people who live in swing states can vote for a third-party/independent candidate without fear of wasting their vote, or possibly spoiling the election. I think if you take those two things out of the equation then you will see more third-party/independent votes. This in theory, should force the major parties to come and get votes instead of simply taking them for granted. Or push them out of office all together...

Will it fix everything? Probably not. But if we truly want to get away from the two-party sham without having to pass major election reforms, then RCV is a very good start IMO.
dstieger Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
In UK, a bunch of members of parliament from the left quit their party over Brexit and are part of an independent 'party' (not sure it's an actual party yet.) And some from right quit May's conservative party and sort of joined up with the other independents. Not sure this is any bigger than short term Brexit posturing, but those quitting their parties are sounding like it could be....the Labour folks say their party is getting too extreme...the Conservatives say their's is too extreme.

I cant help but think that just maybe the partisanship here might actually work in favor of getting us to a more centrist coalition in our government, leading to defections from both side....probably wishful thinking....our parties are incredibly powerful, still...but I'm hopeful
tailgater Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,469
dstieger wrote:
In UK, a bunch of members of parliament from the left quit their party over Brexit and are part of an independent 'party' (not sure it's an actual party yet.) And some from right quit May's conservative party and sort of joined up with the other independents. Not sure this is any bigger than short term Brexit posturing, but those quitting their parties are sounding like it could be....the Labour folks say their party is getting too extreme...the Conservatives say their's is too extreme.

I cant help but think that just maybe the partisanship here might actually work in favor of getting us to a more centrist coalition in our government, leading to defections from both side....probably wishful thinking....our parties are incredibly powerful, still...but I'm hopeful



This is good in theory.
But what if a viable third party emerges from one of the extremes, like the Green Party?

Or if a party gets split.
It seems like the Democrats are on the verge of splitting to a Socialist Democrat party.
And it's not even getting attention.
Could you imagine if the GOP were splintering into a Fascist Republican party?



dstieger Offline
#130 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
I suspect the gravity of the current two party system would prevent one side from breaking away without it happening simultaneously in the other. Feinstein and Pelosi and Schumer might roll their eyes at the children, but they aren't going to disown them if it means they hand over the keys to the Beamer to Trump and McConnell.
dstieger Offline
#131 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
Watched Howard Schultz town hall last night. He was short on specifics, but nothing immediately disqualifying to me.

I'm inclined to give serious consideration to anyone running for national office that isn't R or D. I won't vote for someone who I would not want in the office, but Schultz is worth more buzz than he's getting, IMO.
Gene363 Offline
#132 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 24,114
dstieger wrote:
Watched Howard Schultz town hall last night. He was short on specifics, but nothing immediately disqualifying to me.

I'm inclined to give serious consideration to anyone running for national office that isn't R or D. I won't vote for someone who I would not want in the office, but Schultz is worth more buzz than he's getting, IMO.


"Walk away both." interesting.
dstieger Offline
#133 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
dstieger wrote:
In UK, a bunch of members of parliament from the left quit their party over Brexit and are part of an independent 'party' (not sure it's an actual party yet.) And some from right quit May's conservative party and sort of joined up with the other independents. Not sure this is any bigger than short term Brexit posturing, but those quitting their parties are sounding like it could be....the Labour folks say their party is getting too extreme...the Conservatives say their's is too extreme.

I cant help but think that just maybe the partisanship here might actually work in favor of getting us to a more centrist coalition in our government, leading to defections from both side....probably wishful thinking....our parties are incredibly powerful, still...but I'm hopeful


Brexit Party is celebrating some big wins. Not bad for a party that didn't exist five months ago.
I would still like to think that something like that could happen here....but maybe we need to manufacture our own crisis analagous to Brexit. Maybe immigration? Some big position that isn't a wall and isn't amnesty or sanctuary....IDK. But I'll be on the lookout for an important centrist issue that hardened edges of neither party will touch. A centrist splinter would likely require one larger than normal figure...but not more than one. I'm not looking for a Nigel Farage, by any means...Klobuchar could be a catalyst, but may not be big enough...I should probably give Peter King a call and see if he wants to drive this train
DrafterX Offline
#134 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
We could start a party that gives cool free stuff... Not just basic free stuff... Mellow
RMAN4443 Offline
#135 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,994
The "If It's Free It's For Me" Party???Think
I could use some free stuff right about now....Anxious
DrafterX Offline
#136 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
basic free stuff or Cool Free Stuff..?? Huh
izonfire Offline
#137 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 2,185
Problem is, a third party is usually a spoiler for one of the big two.
Perhaps a Rank Choice election initially, then final one for the winning two.
RMAN4443 Offline
#138 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,994
DrafterX wrote:
basic free stuff or Cool Free Stuff..?? Huh

definitely Cool Free Stuff!!!!
DrafterX Offline
#139 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
Ya... Cool Free Stuff is better... Mellow
dstieger Offline
#140 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
Rest in peace, Ross Perot. The last person that gave me real hope that maybe a 3rd party candidate could won a national election
Speyside Offline
#141 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 8,377
I would have liked to see him as president.
DrafterX Offline
#142 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 89,228
A rich businessman trying to change the system..?? Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#143 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
but that Admiral VP guy...whoa!
USNGunner Offline
#144 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 458
frankj1 wrote:
but that Admiral VP guy...whoa!


That guy Admiral James Stockdale, was the real deal. Shot down in Vietnam, spent a ****load of time in the Hanoi Hilton with honor and never talked. They tortured the hell out of him, and he held his mud.

Medal of Honor winner, and a damned good man.
dstieger Offline
#145 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,336
Wait....let me turn on my hearing aid
frankj1 Offline
#146 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
USNGunner wrote:
That guy Admiral James Stockdale, was the real deal. Shot down in Vietnam, spent a ****load of time in the Hanoi Hilton with honor and never talked. They tortured the hell out of him, and he held his mud.

Medal of Honor winner, and a damned good man.

his reputation was earned.
His viability for being next in line for the Presidency at that time was...questionable?
JKilburn Offline
#147 Posted:
Joined: 10-19-2011
Posts: 1,437
Who am I? And why am I here?
frankj1 Offline
#148 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 28,496
JKilburn wrote:
Who am I? And why am I here?

yeah. and that really got a lot of use by comedians...

wonder who will be the third party candidate that gets my vote next election.
RMAN4443 Offline
#149 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,994
USNGunner wrote:
That guy Admiral James Stockdale, was the real deal. Shot down in Vietnam, spent a ****load of time in the Hanoi Hilton with honor and never talked. They tortured the hell out of him, and he held his mud.

Medal of Honor winner, and a damned good man.

No arguement there, but as a Vice Presidential candidate, his mind was a bit fried.Definitely not the man ,at that point, to be #2 in the chain of command
RMAN4443 Offline
#150 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,994
USNGunner wrote:
That guy Admiral James Stockdale, was the real deal. Shot down in Vietnam, spent a ****load of time in the Hanoi Hilton with honor and never talked. They tortured the hell out of him, and he held his mud.

Medal of Honor winner, and a damned good man.

No arguement there, but as a Vice Presidential candidate, his mind was a bit fried.Definitely not the man ,at that point, to be #2 in the chain of command
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