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Last post 5 years ago by bgz. 38 replies replies.
Arizona Teachers
bgz Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
What say you?

(I'm working, my opinion will have to come later)
teedubbya Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Been in Az for a month now. Cbid proximity rule says stfu.
frankj1 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
yeah, proximity rules are strict.
Mr. Jones Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,359
Get the money...
Wait for it...

Unless you strike and f**k the man...

Youse' won't get nuttin'

More power to'em...
bgz Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
teedubbya wrote:
Been in Az for a month now. Cbid proximity rule says stfu.


You're in AZ now?

Didn't know that :D

Anyway, disappointed, you seem to always have well thought out opinions.

Still working, just came for a quick look to see if this got any action.
deadeyedick Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 16,957
As the husband of a retired (40 years) grade school teacher, I'm happy to see them get a raise that should have been in the budget years ago. However, some deserve it and some do not just like in any other profession.
DrafterX Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
TW is organizing strikes now..?? What's the cut..?? Huh
deadeyedick Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 16,957
He can't yet cuz he is still butt hurt about the proximity rule.
frankj1 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
deadeyedick wrote:
He can't yet cuz he is still butt hurt about the proximity rule.

it's like Catch-22...the best catch there is
delta1 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
My wife is also a retired grade school teacher...she earned every penny, and more...frequently buying supplies for her classroom, student projects, rewards, books. She even bought a laser jet printer and reams of copy paper so she could make copies at home, since there was only one machine for classroom use at her school and it was always in use, or broken. She brought a lot of work home. I'm sure that not all teachers are as dedicated as she was, but many are.
frankj1 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
delta1 wrote:
My wife is also a retired grade school teacher...she earned every penny, and more...frequently buying supplies for her classroom, student projects, rewards, books. She even bought a laser jet printer and reams of copy paper so she could make copies at home, since there was only one machine for classroom use at her school and it was always in use, or broken. She brought a lot of work home. I'm sure that not all teachers are as dedicated as she was, but many are.

my wife, The Lovely Caren, retired 4 years ago to help raise our granddaughter after nearly 40 years as a Speech and Language Pathologist (speech terrorist I say).

She spent a fortune out of pocket every year on supplies (that deduction has been deleted...thanks Trump/DeVoss). She MADE books and materials for the families to continue and expand on her efforts at home, because gains are easily lost during vacations.

She met with families (that could not attend PTO meetings) in the evening, on weekends, or before school started in the morning...on her "free" time.

She took many classes over the years beyond her Masters/Plus/Plus/Plus Degree to be able to provide the very finest services possible.

She earned certification so she could screen preschoolers in the Summers before they entered the system, flagging kids who would require Special Ed and stuff in hopes they could mainstream into conventional classrooms sooner, if at all.

One of our daughters is an English teacher at the local high school. She has been heavily recruited each Summer by much wealthier and nationally recognized school systems nearby. But she feels anyone can teach in upper class towns but "our kids need me", says my daughter. She got her Masters in Education specializing in "troubled" school systems.

When our daughter still lived with us, it was not uncommon for me to walk into the kitchen late in the evening to wake them both up from their lesson plannings so they could go to bed.

Neither was/is ever paid nearly enough.

bgz Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Ok, I have time now.

Like Rick and Al, my wife is a former teacher. I know first hand how much work she put in and how much extra she had to spend of her own money on school supplies. She was one of the Arizona teachers that said screw this and went on to a career that is far more lucrative and far less stressful.

As far as my opinion on this issue goes, I think the teachers are doing the right thing. I was following a video on a facebook feed and watching the comments where people were talking all kinds of crap about the teachers and they're usual lines were something along the lines of:

"Fire them, replace them with better teachers".

Really? Arizona is almost dead last in public school funding in the country and the teachers are leaving in droves. There's such a huge teacher shortage in this state, that they started ad campaigns with actors and actresses trying to recruit teachers to come here and work.

I was like, you f***ing idiots, there is nobody to replace them. Every teacher that wants to be a teacher here is already a teacher here.

Anyway, I'm all for a smaller government and all, but I do think the government has certain responsibilities to the population. I believe that the core infrastructure should the primary purpose of the government.

Roads, police and other emergency services, military and last but not least... public education. If we're not providing the best education possible for our children, then WTF is going to make sure our country runs smoothly in the future?

When it comes to education, we're one of the worst there is of developed nations, and that should embarrass people. Education is important, it should be well funded.

We passed a bill here to increase sales tax by 1% which was sold as a tax to fund education. What do they do when it passes? They just rape the education funding from other sources so they could grab the 1%... and who knows wtf they did with it, but it sure as hell didn't go to education.

They keep systematically raping the education budget, then start blaming the teachers for students performing poorly. With a shoestring budget, it increases class sizes, decreases the quality of teachers and leaves deprecated tools (or no tools) for the children to learn and study with.

I'm happy AF that the teachers are doing what they are doing. I think what they are doing is brave as hell, because their time spent doing this is not paid, and the legislators here know it so they are stringing them out and trying to win by atrophy.

I rarely vote for dems, but come election time, I might do my part to vote against these a$$holes out of spite... because what they are doing is just flat out wrong. Kids in America deserve a good education, and if it means paying a little more to the state to make it happen, I'm ok with it as long as it actually goes to education and not get pillaged for who knows what sh1tty programs they're diverting it to.
frankj1 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
bgz wrote:
Ok, I have time now.

Like Rick and Al, my wife is a former teacher. I know first hand how much work she put in and how much extra she had to spend of her own money on school supplies. She was one of the Arizona teachers that said screw this and went on to a career that is far more lucrative and far less stressful.

As far as my opinion on this issue goes, I think the teachers are doing the right thing. I was following a video on a facebook feed and watching the comments where people were talking all kinds of crap about the teachers and they're usual lines were something along the lines of:

"Fire them, replace them with better teachers".

Really? Arizona is almost dead last in public school funding in the country and the teachers are leaving in droves. There's such a huge teacher shortage in this state, that they started ad campaigns with actors and actresses trying to recruit teachers to come here and work.

I was like, you f***ing idiots, there is nobody to replace them. Every teacher that wants to be a teacher here is already a teacher here.

Anyway, I'm all for a smaller government and all, but I do think the government has certain responsibilities to the population. I believe that the core infrastructure should the primary purpose of the government.

Roads, police and other emergency services, military and last but not least... public education. If we're not providing the best education possible for our children, then WTF is going to make sure our country runs smoothly in the future?

When it comes to education, we're one of the worst there is of developed nations, and that should embarrass people. Education is important, it should be well funded.

We passed a bill here to increase sales tax by 1% which was sold as a tax to fund education. What do they do when it passes? They just rape the education funding from other sources so they could grab the 1%... and who knows wtf they did with it, but it sure as hell didn't go to education.

They keep systematically raping the education budget, then start blaming the teachers for students performing poorly. With a shoestring budget, it increases class sizes, decreases the quality of teachers and leaves deprecated tools (or no tools) for the children to learn and study with.

I'm happy AF that the teachers are doing what they are doing. I think what they are doing is brave as hell, because their time spent doing this is not paid, and the legislators here know it so they are stringing them out and trying to win by atrophy.

I rarely vote for dems, but come election time, I might do my part to vote against these a$$holes out of spite... because what they are doing is just flat out wrong. Kids in America deserve a good education, and if it means paying a little more to the state to make it happen, I'm ok with it as long as it actually goes to education and not get pillaged for who knows what sh1tty programs they're diverting it to.

I applaud your post. Knowing you are primarily Conservative, bucking the expectations is not an easy thing to do.

I'd like to add that the fools who say stuff like teachers only work blah blah blah hours and weeks have no clue what teaching is now compared to when they last stepped inside a public school decades ago.

Not to mention (so I will) all the hours spent off the clock preparing for the hours spent on the clock that no one sees but the teachers' families.

To those who whine that they no longer have kids in school and object to paying taxes for current school needs that they no longer receive...this is a Public Trust passed from generation to generation. Who the Hell paid for the buildings and existing systems when their kids did attend? Or when they attended? The previous generation(s), that's who!

And it directly affects property values.












bgz Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
frankj1 wrote:
I applaud your post. Knowing you are primarily Conservative, bucking the expectations is not an easy thing to do.

I'd like to add that the fools who say stuff like teachers only work blah blah blah hours and weeks have no clue what teaching is now compared to when they last stepped inside a public school decades ago.

Not to mention (so I will) all the hours spent off the clock preparing for the hours spent on the clock that no one sees but the teachers' families.

To those who whine that they no longer have kids in school and object to paying taxes for current school needs that they no longer receive...this is a Public Trust passed from generation to generation. Who the Hell paid for the buildings and existing systems when their kids did attend? Or when they attended? The previous generation(s), that's who!

And it directly affects property values.




Glad you and I see this in the same light Frank! I agree with everything you said (except I think I'm more middle of the road overall, just prioritize certain issues).

I would like to expand on it further by saying that having a desire to have a high quality education system should not be a partisan topic.

Countries should take pride in their education systems. It amazes me that we can compete at the highest level in almost all areas, but our system is mediocre at best.
Cathcam13 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-11-2018
Posts: 1,264
I have nothing but respect for teachers, during college I spent 2 summers as a substitute at a Christian school here in Oregon helping with English and history.
deadeyedick Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 16,957
bgz wrote:
Glad you and I see this in the same light Frank! I agree with everything you said (except I think I'm more middle of the road overall, just prioritize certain issues).

I would like to expand on it further by saying that having a desire to have a high quality education system should not be a partisan topic.

Countries should take pride in their education systems. It amazes me that we can compete at the highest level in almost all areas, but our system is mediocre at best.


Matter of fact, I wondered why you put this topic in the politics section. Funding for this should be about as bipartisan an issue as there ever was.
DrafterX Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,508
Grandma was abducted into the Teacher's Hall of Fame.. I gots one of her awards and stuff... Mellow
dstieger Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I fully agree that, in general, public school teachers are underpaid and underappreciated. I'm not entirely sure how we got to where we are. But I have to think that teachers' unions bear some responsibility. The ideal of a member-led organization that supports the individuals while strengthening the whole sure sounds like a good idea. And certainly, unions did a lot of good for workers in many industries. I'm not familiar with the details of the history, but it is apparent to me that the unions have failed our teachers (and us.) Those unions managed to become such an incredible bogey man for everyone right of center for most of the 70's, 80's, 90's. And yet, they haven't gotten the teachers squat, that I'm aware of. I don't know if it was a skewed focus on tenure, which is what I always heard was the problem, but the results clearly show that teachers haven't got much to show from their representation.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
DrafterX wrote:
Grandma was abducted into the Teacher's Hall of Fame.. I gots one of her awards and stuff... Mellow

Thats jacked up.... did they send you the award as like a "we've got granny and this award proves it" type of thing? Usually they do a finger...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I wonder if every teachers husband thinks their wife is an amazing teacher that deserves a big raise...

From k-12 i attended 7 different schools... i was not a particularly good "student" but academically gifted enough to get A's and B's... in my personal experience, it was easy to observe that most teachers are not good at what they do... and most of what they do is easily replaced with YouTube videos...

And even factoring in time spent working at home and off the clock, teachers work far less hours per year than any other full time job...

There are some teachers who are really good, and I'm all in favor of having them make a million dollars a year... i had a freshman English teacher who was amazing... Jeffery Paul Jones... i still remember nearly everything he taught me...

But i also had a teacher break into tears and quit halfway through the year after she admitted she gave my paper a B without reading it....

And a teacher whose brother had been molested by a pastor's son, so she was openly sh*tty to me and the other pastors kid in the class...

Then there was Mr olive who used to write things like "infected" on post it notes and stick them to unsuspecting kids backs...

I could go on and on about the bad ones... the good ones, not so much...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Forgot about my kindergarten teacher, Ms Anitas... fattest person I'd ever met... 3 of us could sit on her lap at a time... i remember i really liked her... she tried to get my parents to make me repeat kindergarten... she had decided to retire the following year and she wanted me and my best friend to be in her class for her last year of teaching... i have no idea if she was a good "teacher" but I'm cool with her making half a million a year...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Mr Consuelo, sophomore Spanish teacher... his English, it wasn't so good... and since it was a first year Spanish class, he didn't do so well... made it half a semester and quit... his replacement was a substitute that didn't speak any Spanish... she didn't like me or my friend Sark so she told us we could have a B for the year if we showed up for attendance and then took our chairs outside for the rest of class.... every day... for a semester and a half... Sark got really high everyday... i didn't know anything about pot yet so i just chilled and wondered why sark never took off his sunglasses...
dstieger Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
There's probably tons of bad ones. The pool of potential top candidates has to be incredibly hollowed out due to compensation. I'm not so sure about your clock, though. I would bet that (good?) teachers spend more time working when not on the clock than most professions. I suspect that they also spend a lot of their 'off' time, especially summers working on education and training, which many jobs make allowance for during clock time. Besides, do they get paid during the summer? IDK, but I doubt it. As to the question of bad teachers, what's your solution, if not better pay?

Its clear that evaluating teachers has been a tremendous challenge for all districts (partly complicated by unions and tenure, of course...what's the incentive to invest in quality evaluation systems when you can't fire them, anyway?)
opelmanta1900 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Mr. Grandy (am i the only one who had multiple teachers quit halfway through the year? I wonder if i was doing that...) Mr Grandy Was a fourth grade teacher and an incredibly soft spoken old man... that's all i remember about him... we could never understand him cuz he spoke so softly... i don't even remember what he sounded like... everything came out in a whisper... he was however (this will make many of you happy) compensated quite well as he was a private school teacher... the big bucks apparently weren't enough, as he quit halfway through the year...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
There's probably tons of bad ones. The pool of potential top candidates has to be incredibly hollowed out due to compensation. I'm not so sure about your clock, though. I would bet that (good?) teachers spend more time working when not on the clock than most professions. I suspect that they also spend a lot of their 'off' time, especially summers working on education and training, which many jobs make allowance for during clock time. Besides, do they get paid during the summer? IDK, but I doubt it. As to the question of bad teachers, what's your solution, if not better pay?

Its clear that evaluating teachers has been a tremendous challenge for all districts (partly complicated by unions and tenure, of course...what's the incentive to invest in quality evaluation systems when you can't fire them, anyway?)

I don't think most teachers are hourly, they're salary... so yes, they get paid for the months they don't work during the summer... and the week at thanksgiving and the two weeks at Christmas and the one to two weeks for spring break... at least in my profession, salary means you're always paid... that's why the plant can call at 2am on a Sunday morning and tell me to get down there...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
There's probably tons of bad ones. The pool of potential top candidates has to be incredibly hollowed out due to compensation. I'm not so sure about your clock, though. I would bet that (good?) teachers spend more time working when not on the clock than most professions. I suspect that they also spend a lot of their 'off' time, especially summers working on education and training, which many jobs make allowance for during clock time. Besides, do they get paid during the summer? IDK, but I doubt it. As to the question of bad teachers, what's your solution, if not better pay?

Its clear that evaluating teachers has been a tremendous challenge for all districts (partly complicated by unions and tenure, of course...what's the incentive to invest in quality evaluation systems when you can't fire them, anyway?)

I'm all for better - even amazing - pay for the good ones... the problem is there are far more bad ones than good but they've all decided to link arms and be treated equally...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Mr skarret... never had him as a teacher but my brother adopted 2 of his grandchildren, as Mr Skarretts son got high on meth, ran from the cops, and drove his van into the river...

Mr Skarrett was arrested for child porn... he used to hook a camera up to the classroom overhead projector and then take pics up girls skirts for the whole class to see... it was a funny little game to him... after his arrest he was fired, but local police "botched" the investigation by "accidentally" erasing his hard drive... he sued the school district and won... he lives right behind my parents....

should Wayne have made more money so that good teachers would've made more money?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
My second grade teacher, Mizz Swanson... Hubba hubba... i would've given up crayolas and graham crackers for that woman...
dstieger Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
opelmanta1900 wrote:


should Wayne have made more money so that good teachers would've made more money?



Nah....its entirely appropriate that all the Jeffery Paul Joneses should make minimum wage because there's some Skarrets out there
opelmanta1900 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
dstieger wrote:
Nah....its entirely appropriate that all the Jeffery Paul Joneses should make minimum wage because there's some Skarrets out there

Touche... how do you spell that?

No! Jpj should be making a million a year... he taught me the 6 elements of a story 22 years ago, he got excited about it, he jumped up and down and yelled them and swore that in 20 years I'd still remember the 6 elements of a story - PLOT CHARACTER THEME SETTING POINT OF VIEW AND TONE!!!

Everything he taught me i still remember... i remember the way he walked and talked and the way he'd pull a student aside when he knew something wasn't right - the guy probably had 250 students and it seemed like he knew us all...

Jpj shouldn't be punished for Wayne and Wayne cant be rewarded for Jpj.... neither situation works and neither situation creates and keeps good teachers...
dstieger Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
damn......
edited ....but, still damn....I don't know what the occurrence rate is, but the idea that any 15 year old student who gets pizzed about a bad grade could very easily destroy a teacher's entire life with false accusations is pretty scary
opelmanta1900 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I deleted what you're referencing... i googled it and did not accurately remember the events in question...
frankj1 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I don't think most teachers are hourly, they're salary... so yes, they get paid for the months they don't work during the summer... and the week at thanksgiving and the two weeks at Christmas and the one to two weeks for spring break... at least in my profession, salary means you're always paid... that's why the plant can call at 2am on a Sunday morning and tell me to get down there...

close.
salaried, yes. paid for Summer vacation, not exactly. Many teachers opt to have their 10 months of pay spread out over 12 month. My wife did not, but many of her work friends just couldn't deal with budgeting money during the work year to have cash flow in the Summer...not too different than people loving tax returns from the Fed. But locally, teachers salaries are for approximately 40 weeks. I presume it's the same everywhere.

You do know I believe you are very bright, but perhaps when young and uprooted so often you did not get a chance to feel like the "insiders" did in local school systems, no chance to get comfortable? Maybe you expected problems? Cuz when you do expect them, you almost always find them. I sure did.

or maybe some of the seven systems were underfunded?

Or maybe you are correct?
Just Relax Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 09-26-2016
Posts: 587
When I was in school it was strange seeing a young teacher busting his hump at some menial job over the summer around town (mowing grass, working the go kart track, etc) to supplement his pittance and when we got back to class the old crumpety teacher talked about heading out west for a 5 week sabbatical.

The older teachers were completely out of touch with the kids they were teaching and making 2-3 times more than the ones I thought were relevant and helped me in life. I understand paying your dues but the system seems really skewed for teachers.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
frankj1 wrote:
close.
salaried, yes. paid for Summer vacation, not exactly. Many teachers opt to have their 10 months of pay spread out over 12 month. My wife did not, but many of her work friends just couldn't deal with budgeting money during the work year to have cash flow in the Summer...not too different than people loving tax returns from the Fed. But locally, teachers salaries are for approximately 40 weeks. I presume it's the same everywhere.

You do know I believe you are very bright, but perhaps when young and uprooted so often you did not get a chance to feel like the "insiders" did in local school systems, no chance to get comfortable? Maybe you expected problems? Cuz when you do expect them, you almost always find them. I sure did.

or maybe some of the seven systems were underfunded?

Or maybe you are correct?


I was incredibly shy as a kid... never a trouble maker, especially with authority... moving a lot maybe had an effect on my ability to connect with teachers but i was never one to go looking for problems... i admit, around my junior year i turned into a real smart ass, but prior to that i was good.... never sent to the principal, never (intentionally) disruptive...

The schools in Vista (north San Diego) were definitely underfunded... and scary... but the best teacher i ever had came from one of those schools...

I think i just encountered a lot of bad teachers... maybe my expectations were too high... i don't know... some of the worst teachers i ever had really liked me... and i liked a lot of them too.... they just weren't into teaching, or just didn't have it...

The more i think about it, the more i come to the conclusion that unions are the issue.... but getting rid of them won't fix it... i definitely don't have the solution...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
You know who doesn't deserve a raise? He's not a teacher, but superintendent Thomas Tramaglini of New Jersey makes almost $150k a year and he poops on the football field.... every day... at least he used to... up until he was arrested yesterday...
tailgater Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
teedubbya wrote:
Been in Az for a month now.



You forgot the second "z".






bgz Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
I can relate with you opel about not connecting with teachers. I moved a lot too.

I went to 12 different public schools, pretty much didn't go to class for 2 of my high school years, and graduated on time.

I always thought the education system was trash, and I easily gamed it. I've always been of the opinion that the system should be better... if it was better, I might have actually went lol.

I don't really have any traumatic memories about school though, I was always able to get along with people (I know, shocking right!!! with as much as I talk trash... well, I did get in a lot of fights, but that's had more to do with being the perpetual new kid), but there weren't too many memorable people that I met during my school years...

...

But I had fun though :)


Edit (correction):

Just counted, 13 public schools, not 12.
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