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Last post 5 years ago by bikrtrsh. 22 replies replies.
I know this has been beat ta death, but ....
bikrtrsh Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 01-29-2009
Posts: 134
As I sit here enjoying this Fallen Angel perfecto ROTT, I can't help but wonder what would happen to the cuban cigar market if the embargo was lifted?

I mean, I ashed a San Cristobal De La Habana after 13 months rest and as much as I enjoyed it, I'm not sure it was any better than this ROTT smoke from AJ Fernandez.

So I can't help but think, if the embargo was lifted and the mystique here in the US was gone, could the cuban cigar really compete head to head with one of these treats from say, Nicaragua? It seems to me that cigars from South America have truly upped their game over the years, and for the price point? C'mon .....

On the other hand .... There's that unmistakable aroma as you pull the parchment from a box of habanos. And that unmistakable and indescribable nuance of flavor that a well rested habano has. It seems to me tho, that the quality and craftsmanship has declined over the years. Maybe it's just me?

Then there's also the concept that it's like comparing apples to oranges (as the worn out adage goes) and there wouldn't be any true head to head competition in the cigar market. Maybe cuban cigars would remain more of a novelty smoke to the majority of cigar enthusiasts.

I can't know .... now I need more adult beverage (or maybe I've already had one too many?)

fog
dstieger Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
Whether they are 'better' to you or to any discerning smoker makes zero difference. Prices will shoot up, and still, demand will outpace production. Quality will slide. I suspect that the effects will last for at least 3 or 4 years... maybe longer.... going to take a long time for the mystique to run it's course. Stock up now.
tonygraz Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
You lost me with "enjoying a Fallen Angel".
Buckwheat Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Actually, it's all just speculation until it actually happens. Quality will certainly fluctuate. fog
bgz Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Ya, quality control already sucks, it would only get worse.

Had a PSD 4 one time, wrapper was all nice and what you would expect... but the wrapper started unwinding and the binder looked like it was used in one of those bb gun games at a local fair where you shoot the star out...

Who ever put it together... ya, this binder was chewed to sh*t by some bugs, f it, throw it on there anyway.

Not to mention plugged cigars. Plugged ccs to ncs is like 20 to 1.

Found a thick string in a Monte #5 one time...

Ya, if they made ccs legal, I would probably quit buying them for a while.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,301
Buckwheat wrote:
Actually, it's all just speculation until it actually happens. Quality will certainly fluctuate. fog



As we speak!!!!Herfing
bikrtrsh Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-29-2009
Posts: 134
tonygraz wrote:
You lost me with "enjoying a Fallen Angel".


LoL! It was fairly good. It was the first and only one I've ever had. Definitely not in the realm of a cc but was good for a deviation from the rotation.

I definitely agree with "stock up now". I truly believe the embargo will be lifted, maybe more to the sooner side than later. It seems like the political picture has been drifting slowly in that direction. Maybe another 10 years at best?

I agree with the general consensus on the short term effects on cc's after lifting the embargo. But that will subside. Mystique here in the US will dissipate. As short supply, high prices, cc's sold while sick (demanding a long rest) and even worse quality become the new norm, South American stogies will surely continue their present course of creating a plethora of taste profiles, quality products and a stick ready to smoke ROTT. Could that knock out more cc factories than the revolution and embargo combined? hmmmmmm.

I'm not sure investing in cc manufacturing would be good advice (even if it were possible) but investing in stock of boxes now will definitely pay off (one way or another) in the future.

The best part of losing the embargo to me is; we'd probably, finally, be able to chase our favorite cc's on cbid! at least for the short term

fog Herfing
frankj1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Central America.
shaun341 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 08-02-2012
Posts: 8,826
I'd probably still buy from the same vendors that I do now to avoid the taxes that would come with entering this market.

Personally I don't find anything wrong with smoking many cubans rott either. I have been gifted many older cubans and while I have found some year to be better than others (08 Mag 46s are definitely better than other year I have tried) I feel it is hit or miss on the years crops. Same goes for most ncs imo. The new Tat Broadleaf Collection just is not the same as the single year releases of years past, for instance the 13 Noellas are far superior to the recent release. It will all still come down to preference and once the dust settles I believe the ratio of those that prefer cc to NC will be similar to today.
frankj1 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
we've actually moved back a few steps toward Cubans being allowed since Trump took over.
tonygraz Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
The one CC I smoked most was machine made and I didn't know that until several years after I smoked my last one. Never had a plugged one and couldn't believe they weren't hand made (sold in aluminum tubos).
Apparently the Cuban machines make a better machine made cigar. Maybe they can compete price wise if it ever becomes possible.

bikrtsh - I smoked 8 Fallen Angels and they don't even rise to decent yard gar status for me.
KingoftheCove Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,600
If Tony says a cigar doesn't rise to yard gar status..............that is a serious indictment.
bikrtrsh Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-29-2009
Posts: 134
LMAO! In all fairness I have to admit that the Woodford Reserve may have aided in the flavor profile a bit. And if thats truly the case ... well I guess I need to put a sticky note on the other 4 to remind me of that when I get around to herf'n another

Frank, I thought central america was like Kansas or something. I do agree with ya on loosing ground toward lifting the embargo with The Donald. I had hopes that he would buck the establishment stance and continue the path that Barry laid open. I guess relations with Cuba isn't on the high profile priority list. He probably already has limitless access to cc's.

Tony, you're the second fella in the past few days to say basically the same thing. My buddy went on to say that he wouldn't pass on a machine rolled cc for a hand rolled in most circumstances. Maybe I should consider using those final 4 Fallen Angels for a "home infusion" project? LoL!

Yeh King, I felt the blow to my aficionado status. ;)
Pudding Mittens Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 1,291
.
One of my pals and I have almost identical palates, and he loves the Fallen Angels, so I put in some bids here and won. Anything he likes, I usually like.

People are so different. Lots of guys gush about the awesomeness of Fuente and Davidoff and Ashton, but they all taste like nothing to us (with the exception of the Davidoff Nicaraguan stuff which tastes similar to an AJ cigar but at a much higher price). Total boring airballs.

There's also the age issue. Some cigars are "not even worthy of yard gar" status ROTT, are yard gar status 6 months or 1 year later, are "hey not bad" at 2 years, then "wow nice!" at the 3, 4 or 5 year marks.

Or maybe they've been switched to a margin-maximizing lesser-quality blend today, and my buddy's ones are from a few years ago when the blend was better. So many variables!
.
KingoftheCove Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,600
Lot of truth in dat Puddin.
But, it's rare that a turd will turn into a silk purse after a few years..............very rare indeed.

Some mid range cigars may be a bit "rough" ROTT, but you can often tell they are going to improve quite a bit with a long nap.

But a dog rocket is usually gonna stay a dog rocket.........it will just be an older dog rocket.

Also, there are quite a few blends out there that actually start to lose their luster after a period of time.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Gotta agree with all of that... I tried aging a lot of dog rockets when i first started out... None of them got better... Most of them got worse... Aging bad tobacco just makes it old bad tobacco...

And I've had issues with some de stuff that absolutely sucked after a 3 year nap...

The only cigars I've ever had that benefited from further aging were cigars that were already really good to start with...
Pudding Mittens Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 1,291
KingoftheCove wrote:
Lot of truth in dat Puddin.
But, it's rare that a turd will turn into a silk purse after a few years..............very rare indeed.

Yup, you need sufficient quality to start with. My pal says the Fallen Angels have it, but I guess I'll find out!

Quote:
Some mid range cigars may be a bit "rough" ROTT, but you can often tell they are going to improve quite a bit with a long nap.

Yeah, the cool thing is, with enough experience you can start to taste the difference between "ROTT and no hope" and "ROTT with potential". Can't put it into words, but your palate learns the telltale signs of the difference.

Quote:
Also, there are quite a few blends out there that actually start to lose their luster after a period of time.

Never noticed this in all my years in the hobby. It's always been either no improvement, some improvement (whether it be a little, some or a lot) always with diminishing returns (less improvement per unit of time as time goes on, trending toward zero), but never a worsening that I can remember. My longtime cigar buddy has had the same experience.
.
tonygraz Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
I've found a few that lost it with aging- in particular Legado de Pepin. Good smoke with taste ROTT and after a few months the flavor disappears
bgz Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
If I buy cigars that aren't good ROTT, I probably won't buy them again.

For me, I'm not a big fan of cigars stored for long periods of time as they tend to lose their strength.

As for aging cigars, I have no desire to age cigars... nor do I keep a humidor suitable for aging cigars... I have a desire to smoke cigars!

Because of all that, I try to keep my wineador full, but try not to utilize my overflow unless I have to (good deal couldn't pass up) because I know I prefer younger cigars in general.


tonygraz Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
Those Fallen Angels I had were purchased in December of 2014 at $2 each. Probably a bit of an overbid.

Smoked the first in May,2015 and the last in June 2016 - might have one or two left.
KingoftheCove Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 7,600
Lots of Connies have a "shelf life".
and in my opinion, Undercrowns are best between 1 and 2 years.
I had some 3+ year old ones a while back.....they seemed a bit flat, not as good as they were earlier.
bikrtrsh Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 01-29-2009
Posts: 134
Years ago I didn't worry much about storage beyond the short term. What I mean is, my turnover was probably 90 days roughly. Then I bought cc's and got a quick lesson on cigar sickness and the value of patience. I smoked a few green and I liked 'em just fine. Smoked a few more around 6 months later and thought they sucked but shrugged it off thinking it was just my imagination. Another year later and i realized the stuff I had been told was actually true, those cc's were awesome! Now my cc's always get get a long nap with the exception of a couple to sample.

My nc's on the other hand, I buy mostly 5'ers ... burn one, and then decide whether to add them to my rotation, try resting them a bit or pawning them off on my smoking buddies. IMO, it seems the darker side with a stronger blend likes rest more than the lighter smokes with softer blends. Overall tho, not significant enough change to warrant long term storage. There have been exceptions tho. For instance, a couple of years on an 80th anniversary Padron brought out a definite cinnamon taste. My wife said she could smell cinnamon in the smoke as well.

BTW, the remaining Fallen Angels I have, have been relinquished to the back of my 'resting for bit' drawer. Hell, they are still an AJ blend after all. To me they tasted like a light punch cigar with a hint of dark chocolate. I'll have the next one fall in to my singles rotation in a couple of months. I really don't expect any change.

I can't keep a damn undercrown for a year. I just gotta smoke 'em if I got 'em LoL

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