America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Last post 5 years ago by victor809. 43 replies replies.
Russian Trolling...fascinating read
dstieger Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
From Washington Post

BY JAMES HOHMANN
with Joanie Greve
THE BIG IDEA: A new report prepared for the Senate Intelligence Committee reveals that the Russians, in their bid to boost President Trump, have been more fixated than previously understood on trying to dampen African American political engagement.

Researchers at Oxford University’s Computational Propaganda Project and Graphika, a network analysis firm, spent seven months analyzing millions of social media posts that major technology firms turned over to congressional investigators. Their goal was to understand the inner workings of the Internet Research Agency, which the U.S. government has charged with criminal offenses for interfering in the 2016 election.

It turns out that African Americans were targeted with more Facebook ads than any other group, including conservatives.

Three of the four most-liked Facebook posts put up by the Russian influence effort came from an account called Blacktivist that urged the community to be more cynical about politics. African Americans were urged to vote for Green Party candidate Jill Stein throughout the month before the 2016 election. A post on Oct. 29 that year declared: “NO LIVES MATTER TO HILLARY CLINTON. ONLY VOTES MATTER TO HILLARY CLINTON.” A message on Nov. 3 added: “NOT VOTING is a way to exercise our rights.”

On Twitter, four of the Russian agency’s five most‐retweeted accounts catered exclusively to African Americans.

On Instagram, all five of the most-liked posts created by the Russians were aimed at African American women. They included the hashtags #blackpower, #blackpride, #unapologeticallyblack, #blacklivesmatter, #icantbreathe, #riot and #blackgirlskillingit.

The influence operation – run out of St. Petersburg – was sophisticated, relentless and became more effective with time. Its goal was to manipulate identity politics to tear America apart. The Soviet Union had also tried to heighten racial divisions during the Cold War, but their operatives lacked access to the technology platforms that now make it so easy.

“Messaging to African Americans sought to divert their political energy away from established political institutions by preying on anger with structural inequalities … including police violence, poverty, and disproportionate levels of incarceration,” the report says. “These campaigns pushed a message that the best way to advance the cause of the African American community was to boycott the election and focus on other issues instead.”

The Internet Research Agency ran its disinformation campaign out of this office in St. Petersburg. The troll farm is one of a web of companies allegedly controlled by Yevgeny Prigozhin, who reportedly has ties to Vladimir Putin.

My colleagues Craig Timberg and Tony Romm exclusively obtained a draft of this study yesterday. The intelligence committee, led by Sens. Richard Burr (R-N.C.) and Mark Warner (D-Va.), plans to publicly release it later this week, along with a separate report conducted by another team of researchers. It’s not clear whether they’ll formally endorse the findings.

Craig and Tony generously shared with me their copy of the report, which runs around 90 pages. The Russian machinations to manipulate conservatives have been well covered over the past two years. But the scale of the operations focused on African Americans has never been laid out so vividly. And it’s especially notable because Clinton very narrowly lost three key states – Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin – because of lower-than-expected black turnout in the urban areas of Philadelphia, Detroit and Milwaukee.

In addition to targeting major metropolitan areas that had become hot spots in the Black Lives Matter movement, the agency also microtargeted Ferguson, Mo. – attempting to reignite the flames of racial animus after the violence in the streets had died down. They used Facebook’s Ads Manager tool to target African Americans who were specifically interested in “Black Nationalism and identity,” as well as “incarceration” and the criminal justice system.

“The IRA used a variety of false personas (sock puppets) to infiltrate American political discussion communities on the right and left, including black activist communities, in order to exacerbate social divisions and influence the agenda,” the document explains. “Accounts posing as Americans on the right and left were frequently created and operated from the same computers.”


-- The report is definitive that a central goal of all this was to elect Trump and, subsequently, to buoy him once he took office: “What is clear is that all of the messaging clearly sought to benefit the Republican Party — and specifically Donald Trump,” it concludes. “Trump is mentioned most in campaigns targeting conservatives and right-wing voters, where the messaging encouraged these groups to support his campaign. The main groups that could challenge Trump were then provided messaging that sought to confuse, distract and ultimately discourage members from voting.”

-- The Russian campaign generated levels of engagement that would make the marketing departments at even the country’s biggest corporations envious. Between 2015 and 2017, over 30 million users shared the agency’s Facebook and Instagram posts with their friends and family – liking, reacting to and commenting on them along the way. Their organic Facebook posts were shared 31 million times, liked 39 million times and generated 3.5 million comments. Their Instagram posts garnered almost 185 million likes and 4 million user comments. For the study, Twitter turned over 8.5 million tweets from 3,841 accounts believed to have been managed by the agency.

-- The Russians used all the best practices of digital marketing. They primarily posted general feel-good posts to build large and loyal followings on their accounts so that the anti-Clinton political posts would pack more of a punch. They used tools designed to help American businesses reach customers to slice and dice the electorate for sinister propaganda purposes. The report says that the Russians used memes, comedy, funny pictures and music streaming to attract younger users.

“Facebook uses an auction system to price impressions for different segments, meaning different target interests are priced differently, according to advertiser demand,” the report explains. “Ads to African Americans, Native Americans, Latin Americans, and youth were the cheapest, while ads to conservatives, Muslim Americans, and LGBT users were the most expensive. If we look at the amount spent in total, we see that a similar amount was spent on conservatives (a small number of expensive ads) as was spent on targeting African Americans (a large number of cheap ads).”

-- There was a lot of trial and error, and the Russian agents used their experience targeting dissidents domestically to sow discord overseas. The group began targeting U.S. voters for misinformation as early as 2013, according to the report, using some of the techniques that it already deployed on its own citizens and in Eastern Europe. Several of the accounts had even been repurposed. Researchers found that one targeted an Indonesian audience in Indonesian before abruptly shifting to English-language posts about U.S. politics.

The Russians started on Twitter and then moved toward YouTube, progressed to Instagram and finally figured out Facebook. As they ramped up, they conducted dry runs to gauge their ability to influence Americans. For example, accounts aimed at both conservatives and liberals peddled an entirely fabricated story around Thanksgiving in 2015 that turkeys from Koch Farms and Walmart would cause food poisoning.


How Russian operatives used social media to divide America
-- One case study in an appendix of the report illustrates how the Russian effort evolved across platforms in a way that made it harder for technology companies to stop. “Black Matter US” was created to translate online activity into in-person activism for “the Black rights movement.” This fictionalized persona maintained accounts on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Google+ and Tumblr. The Internet Research Agency purchased Google ads to promote an associated website called blackmattersus.com and set up a PayPal account to encourage and accept donations to the false organization.

Its Twitter account, @blackmatterus, started in October 2015 and grew to have more than 20,000 followers. There were Twitter profiles set up for fictional African American “contributors” to the website; the made-up @Crystal1Johnson became the sixth-most-retweeted IRA asset. Most of the posts were written to amplify racial tensions.

The group’s Twitter account often linked to a Facebook page called “Black Matters” that acquired more than 222,000 followers. It encouraged African Americans to participate in real-life rallies against police treatment of minorities. The page promoted events in at least six cities, according to the report, from New York to Jackson, Miss., Detroit, Charleston and Baltimore. The report highlights 14 links from the @blackmatterus Twitter account to various Facebook events, including one called “Firearms Training Class for #BlackWomen.”

That Facebook account was shut down in August 2016. The very next day, a new Facebook account called “BM” was created. The original Twitter account, which was not closed at that point, accused Facebook of “supporting white supremacy” by shutting it down and pointed traffic to the new Facebook page. The Russians then began buying Google ads targeting African Americans with links to the “Black Matter US” website. One of the display ads said: “Cops kill black kids. Are you sure that your son won’t be the next?” This second Facebook page grew to 103,013 followers, according to the report. Its messages shifted to become less militant and more focused on positive black empowerment.

In August 2017, the original Facebook page somehow reemerged. “We’re back,” the Russians wrote. It’s since been deleted – again.

-- Emboldened by Trump’s victory, the scale of the disinformation campaign picked up substantially after the 2016 election – especially on Instagram – until companies cracked down last summer. The report finds that the peak of ad volume on Facebook from the agency came in April 2017 around the Syrian missile strike. One notable development is that the Russians began to aggressively target Hispanics with what they dubbed a “Brown Power” campaign. Using many of the same themes they’d used with African Americans, they highlighted stories about deportations, discrimination and the treatment of migrants. It’s hard to believe, though not impossible, that the Russians could do all this without any advice from any Americans to understand how our process works. But the report doesn’t address that, and there’s much that remains unknown.

-- The new report calls out Google, and its subsidiary YouTube, for being especially unhelpful to congressional investigators trying to study what the Russians were up to. “Unfortunately, Google made the unusual choice to provide data to the Committee in nonmachine‐readable format,” the researchers complain. “The ads data was provided in lengthy PDF format whose pages displayed copies of information previously organized in spreadsheets (Google could have provided the original spreadsheets in CSV or JSON files). A separate folder contained 228 video files, without metadata, giving no details on the user that uploaded the video, which channels it may have been associated with, and the engagement that it received. Our investigation into the data provided by Twitter and Facebook suggests the IRA maintained other properties on Google products, notably Google+ profiles.” Google and YouTube did not respond to requests for comment on Sunday.

-- Most sobering, though, the report suggests that the disinformation campaign is active and ongoing elsewhere: “The dataset only includes data provided by Twitter, Facebook, and Google. Although it is reasonable to assume that the core of the IRA’s effort was conducted on these platforms, other social media platforms also acknowledged that their internal investigations yielded IRA‐related activity (notably Reddit, Tumblr, Pinterest, and Medium). Posts and profiles contained in this dataset clearly show other platforms were also targeted in this effort. Investigating the suspended pages and posts in the dataset also led to a high‐probability of IRA‐affiliated live pages still being online and posting.”

The authors sound a cautionary note about what’s become of the platforms that helped ignite the Arab Spring. “Social media have gone from being the natural infrastructure for sharing collective grievances and coordinating civic engagement,” they write, “to being a computational tool for social control, manipulated by canny political consultants and available to politicians in democracies and dictatorships alike.”
Abrignac Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
The Phoenix program part dieux without the assignations.
dstieger Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I don't know what that means.


Additionally, I hope to put aside our political bickering for a moment and consider what's laid out here. I'm not interested in using this thread to comment on Trump or Hillary, or collusion, or 2016 elections except to contemplate the magnitude and scale of the subversion.
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,580
this should go well....
delta1 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
It'd be interesting to see the details, and especially what efforts are underway to close these avenues down. There is enough corrosion in our political environment that any additional outside instigation should not be tolerated. It's such a threat that all Americans who espouse our free and democratic values should band together and request a full and open exposure of the ways and means of this foreign invasion.

to minimize or even dismiss this just because the foreign plot helped one side versus the other seems, at best opportunistic, and at worst, un-American...
dstieger Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
I agree. Everyone has heard about the trolling, but I think most would be astounded by operation
ZRX1200 Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,580
LMAO.......
opelmanta1900 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Sooooooo... Muzzle free speech for non Americans?
opelmanta1900 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
“NO LIVES MATTER TO HILLARY CLINTON. ONLY VOTES MATTER TO HILLARY CLINTON.”

Purty sure Russians didn't write that... Purty sure I wrote that... It's gonna be hilarious when the American public realizes that 4ch trolls are responsible for not only all of this content that's being blamed on the Russians but also responsible for directing the blame towards Russian...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
The "fill-in-the-blank" operation – run out of "fill-in-the-city", USA – was sophisticated, relentless and became more effective with time. Its goal was to manipulate identity politics to tear "fill-in-the-country" apart. The United States had also tried to heighten "fill-in-the-conflict" divisions during the "fill-in-the-time-period", but their operatives lacked access to the technology platforms that now make it so easy.
victor809 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I said probably over a year ago that the Russians played both sides on this.
They created fake BLM sites and posted outrageous stuff, both to manipulate BLM supporters AND would then post that same sh&t to Blue Lives Matter sites saying "can you believe the crazy stuff those BLM supporters are doing!?"

They have been able to control both sides of the discussion.
delta1 Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
Newt Gingrich will be exposed as a Russian operative...
opelmanta1900 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
delta1 wrote:
Newt Gingrich will be exposed as the Pillsbury doughboy...

Agreed...
Abrignac Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
I heard he was a consumer of Russian poon.
delta1 Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
he always looks like he just swallowed...


FYI...I heard an NPR piece about Newt Gingrich's significant role in changing the course of politics in America...he helped usher in the current era of extreme polarization, helping to unseat many moderate GOP congressmen, who had long histories of bipartisanship...
Abrignac Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
It’s a real shame where things stand now. Instead of bipartisanship it’s survival of the fittest.
delta1 Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
lotta peeps say politics was more civilized back when Reagan was President and Tip O'Neill was the Speaker, on opposite sides of the aisle, but always looking for middle ground, where most Americans would benefit...
victor809 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
...I really don't think "survival of the fittest" means what you think it means.
frankj1 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
victor809 wrote:
...I really don't think "survival of the fittest" means what you think it means.

survival of the fattest, maybe?

Jack London
delta1 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
think Trump and Pelosi can play nice, like Reagan and O'Neill?
Mr. Jones Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,410
#1... Was hard to read...and stay focused...half the megdata, marketing and computer terms were only invented in the last five years...

I am a dinosaur....

But..."snub whitey" sure could deliver samsonites full-0-cash...
"ON SCHEDULE, ON TIME, RIGHT PLACE AND ....
IN F.U.L.L." for the DNC....BARELY ANY COMPUTERS BACK THEN...OR FOCUS GROUPS...
deadeyedick Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,068
If any voters were swayed by trolls on social media sites it seems we got what we deserved.
Gene363 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,797
I read through the report and they point the finger at BLM, including accounts, but nothing specific is mentioned about conservatives or the support of Trump, it all inferences or did I miss something?
dstieger Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 10,889
What?

Not sure what you're looking for Gene.

I only posted because I was quite amazed at the sophistication and effort put forth. Cbid is about as much as I do social media (I look at FB about once a week, if that.) And I never imagined the Ttolls', persistence, reach and ability to probably influence. It's startling to me, and I'm a huge skeptic. I think that some sort of abridged version should be required reading before anybody shares anything on FB or retweets any Twitter stuff. This should be a pop-up reconfirm anytime someone wants to 'share':
https://me.me/i/now-son-do-you-know-what-you-did-wrong-yes-2587387
Gene363 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,797
dstieger wrote:
What?

Not sure what you're looking for Gene.

I only posted because I was quite amazed at the sophistication and effort put forth. Cbid is about as much as I do social media (I look at FB about once a week, if that.) And I never imagined the Ttolls', persistence, reach and ability to probably influence. It's startling to me, and I'm a huge skeptic. I think that some sort of abridged version should be required reading before anybody shares anything on FB or retweets any Twitter stuff. This should be a pop-up reconfirm anytime someone wants to 'share':
https://me.me/i/now-son-do-you-know-what-you-did-wrong-yes-2587387


I just noted the difference of evidence. Yes, that is a lot if shenanigans , however, done by Google, Microsoft, FB etc, it's called marketing. It's also a technologically current version of what the USA has done in other countries. Not an excuse, just history, e.g., in Guatemala.
delta1 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
have we become so partisan that we are willing to accept foreign hostile nation's interference in our elections as a way of life? Just because we did/do similar things? Do our interests really align with Russia's that we will tolerate a Presidential campaign (the highest office/most powerful in the world) that accepts their help?

I submit that the con's laissez faire attitude towards this development would be quite different if the outside influence had helped Hillary....

my read is that there are sheep on both sides of the political divide, easily swayed by disinformation and fake news...lies designed to discourage and dissuade some voters (blacks) and to motivate and encourage others (older whites)...stuff that our own campaigns do, only less blatant and over the lines in some ways because our norms don't allow that stuff out in the open...except on social media where anything goes and the unbelievable is unchallenged and believed by willing sheeple...

It seems Instagram was the platform that was most effective (more than 276 Million "engagements")...imagine that...memes get more attention, just like bumper stickers in the past...

the real takeaway: collectively, we are a lazy nation full of Barnum and Bailey dupes...who need active vigilance on the part of our protective services to sustain our independent democracy...
Gene363 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,797
delta1 wrote:
have we become so partisan that we are willing to accept foreign hostile nation's interference in our elections as a way of life? Just because we did/do similar things? Do our interests really align with Russia's that we will tolerate a Presidential campaign (the highest office/most powerful in the world) that accepts their help?

I submit that the con's laissez faire attitude towards this development would be quite different if the outside influence had helped Hillary....

my read is that there are sheep on both sides of the political divide, easily swayed by disinformation and fake news...lies designed to discourage and dissuade some voters (blacks) and to motivate and encourage others (older whites)...stuff that our own campaigns do, only less blatant and over the lines in some ways because our norms don't allow that stuff out in the open...except on social media where anything goes and the unbelievable is unchallenged and believed by willing sheeple...

It seems Instagram was the platform that was most effective (more than 276 Million "engagements")...imagine that...memes get more attention, just like bumper stickers in the past...

the real takeaway: collectively, we are a lazy nation full of Barnum and Bailey dupes...who need active vigilance on the part of our protective services to sustain our independent democracy...


So then you've changed your mind, especially political positions, from reading posts here?

H.L. Mencken is credited with saying something like:

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”
delta1 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
a few times...ask Drafter...did I get trolled?

are there Russian trolls lurking in CBidland? I don't do Facebook anymore, never did Twitter or Instagram, don't know if my myspace account is still open, though, feeding fake news into my cell-phone....

we'll never be able to measure the effectiveness of the Russian campaign...but an honest look at the numbers in the closest states: Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, shows black voting rates way down...those are the states that turned the election Trump's way...but he also campaigned heavily there, so who knows...

regardless, I do not want any other country to ever have a say in our elections and want that as a national security priority...
Abrignac Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
It’s not so much that we as a nation are willing to accept interference, I suspect we’ve grown weary of those who politicize the process of investigating the end result. Case in point is Mueller‘s investigation. We now know behind a doubt that one of the agents who interviewed Flynn most definitely had an agenda. Comey has gone on record about how he preyed on Trumps disorganized administrative to go off the reservation with Flynn. Apparently, the FISA warrant was based largely on opposition research for the democratically.

**** like that divides a nation. When we are divided Russia benefits.
Gene363 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,797
delta1 wrote:
a few times...ask Drafter...did I get trolled?

are there Russian trolls lurking in CBidland? I don't do Facebook anymore, never did Twitter or Instagram, don't know if my myspace account is still open, though, feeding fake news into my cell-phone....

we'll never be able to measure the effectiveness of the Russian campaign...but an honest look at the numbers in the closest states: Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, shows black voting rates way down...those are the states that turned the election Trump's way...but he also campaigned heavily there, so who knows...

regardless, I do not want any other country to ever have a say in our elections and want that as a national security priority...


Nor do I, undermining democracy, something the Russians want to do, is a real problem. For the same reason not resolving the issue over voter disenfranchisement Vs voter ID is a very serious issue, not a political football.
delta1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
Abrignac wrote:
It’s not so much that we as a nation are willing to accept interference, I suspect we’ve grown weary of those who politicize the process of investigating the end result. Case in point is Mueller‘s investigation. We now know behind a doubt that one of the agents who interviewed Flynn most definitely had an agenda. Comey has gone on record about how he preyed on Trumps disorganized administrative to go off the reservation with Flynn. Apparently, the FISA warrant was based largely on opposition research for the democratically.

**** like that divides a nation. When we are divided Russia benefits.


the con narrative that Flynn was entrapped by an over-zealous FBI was laid bare by his own attorney in open court today. He said "no your honor" when the judge asked him if he was entrapped by the FBI. Flynn was raked over the coals by the judge for his very serious crimes, saying "you sold your country out."

He is only getting a break because he has provided key evidence to the Mueller investigation into the Trump/Russian investigation.

Since when did we start taking the side of a convicted perjurer/foreign agent over the FBI...
Gene363 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,797
delta1 wrote:
the con narrative that Flynn was entrapped by an over-zealous FBI was laid bare by his own attorney in open court today. He said "no your honor" when the judge asked him if he was entrapped by the FBI. Flynn was raked over the coals by the judge for his very serious crimes, saying "you sold your country out."

He is only getting a break because he has provided key evidence to the Mueller investigation into the Trump/Russian investigation.

Since when did we start taking the side of a convicted perjurer/foreign agent over the FBI...


You are proving Abrignac's point.Speak to the hand
Abrignac Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
delta1 wrote:
the con narrative that Flynn was entrapped by an over-zealous FBI was laid bare by his own attorney in open court today. He said "no your honor" when the judge asked him if he was entrapped by the FBI. Flynn was raked over the coals by the judge for his very serious crimes, saying "you sold your country out."

He is only getting a break because he has provided key evidence to the Mueller investigation into the Trump/Russian investigation.

Since when did we start taking the side of a convicted perjurer/foreign agent over the FBI...



Thank Al. You made my point.
Speyside Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
This is not a conservative issue, or for that matter a liberal issue. It is an American issue. We have been attacked by a foreign power. It should be treated as such. Going forward there should be repercussions for Russia. It needs to be stopped.
delta1 Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
#32 and #33...

if you believe I've made Abrignac's point, then you have not read my entire post and put it in the context of Abrignac's post above, #29.

He believes that the Mueller investigation is dividing the country and that there are some indices of impropriety. His first allegation is that one of the FBI agents who interviewed Flynn had an agenda. This ignores the numerous other FBI agents who interviewed Flynn and /or worked on the case. And the agent with the agenda didn't prepare the case nor did he work with the prosecutors who brought the case to court. Every law enforcement agency is made up of humans, some of whom make mistakes or have improper motives. But that doesn't mean the entire agency should be dismissed...just the bad apple...

His second assertion is that Comey preyed upon Trump's disorganized administration to go off the reservation on Flynn. This sounds like Abrignac believes the FBI improperly investigated and prosecuted Flynn. Flynn admitted he committed serious crimes in court today, and the FBI would be remiss if they failed to investigate a crime of that magnitude with the very public evidence in front of them.



"Since when did we start taking the side of a convicted perjurer/foreign agent over the FBI..."

I posted this to ask why the cons dragged the FBI's case against Flynn through the mud in the days before his sentencing. The answer is "Trump". Trump is the one who is at the center of all these investigations, and has the most to lose when his past colleagues testify against him. He has consistently put out lies after lies as more and more evidence is revealed. The con argument that Flynn was ambushed came directly from Trump and his advisers. He is muddying the waters, trying to win the case in the court of public opinion.

After all the instances where Trump has been shown to be a liar about events that led to criminal prosecutions and guilty pleas by his underlings, it's remarkable that Trump still has supporters who buys his schtick of attacking the investigators, attacking the flippers, attacking the prosecutors, attacking the judge and attacking the media who report these events factually.

Something really historic happened during the presidential campaign, and we should all want to know the truth about it. Flynn was involved and was a participant. He also committed some serious crimes along the way and lied about it. He only has value if he can provide evidence about the events that happened during the campaign, some of which may be criminal. By cooperating with the FBI, Flynn can avoid lawful prison time. I don't hold him in higher regard than the totality of the FBI or the SCO investigating the Russian involvement in our election.

Partisanship may have something to do with how we all view these investigations...but truth has no party identification... and the quest for truth is greater than either party...
frankj1 Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
nice job Al
Abrignac Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
Re: 35

I don’t disagree with you. But, you still missed the point of #33. Simply put, the foundation on which the Mueller case was built began as a partisan endeavor. Think fruit of the poisoned tree. It’s not that anyone is flippant regarding foreign intervention, it’s the cynicism brought forth by the action of those who have an agenda.

I as much as anyone want this investigated. Hell, we might learn some useful tactics. But, it needs to be done for the nation as a whole, not just to benefit the left or the right.

There once was a time when members on the left and the right worked together for a common goal. That is pretty much nonexistent today. As a result, Congressional approval ratings suck because there little left besides gridlock.

Btw, I’m neither a Republican or a con. My voter registration card has the exact same party affiliation today as it had when I received it in 1983: No Party. In the last election I voted for Democratic and Republican candidates. I vote my conscience, period.
Abrignac Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,261
BTW, I don’t think I’ve condemned the FBI as a whole. By and large, the rank and file do important jobs and serve with honor and distinction. On the other hand, it’s perfectly honorable to call out questionable actions of persons involved. In fact, isn’t that the purpose of an investigation?
bgz Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Russian trolls are a good thing, they cause discord, and discord makes news entertaining.
delta1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,776
let's see now...

the left/libs want the Mueller investigation to get to the truth...and believe that something bad happened and the POTUS may have played a part...the investigation thus far has proven that something bad happened and several people involved at the top of the POTUS's campaign have pled guilty and sit in prison...

the right /cons believe this is a fixed investigation...

Regardless of the final outcome, Trump has already won...
Speyside Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
I believe there are many conservatives and liberals who want the truth. I don't think I am being naive. The talking heads on both sides sensationalize. But the average American is neither part of the far left or far right loons. We can converse sensibly about an issue even when we have differing opinions. In fact we often do here. We exchange ideas. We challenge pre conceived ideas. We even get angry at each other at times. I think Anthony stated it well the other day when he said perhaps we could ratchet it down a little. Heck, Z and I periodically throw land mines at each other, but I would certainly enjoy drinking some good wine at a nice winery with him. We will certainly survive the Trump presidency. The only way we loose is if we further divide ourselves. When thinking of Americans I prefer to think of us, never them. The one addition I would make to that is add a third letter. When we think of USA we always win.
tailgater Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
delta1 wrote:
let's see now...

the left/libs want the Mueller investigation to get to the truth....


Only if the "truth" fits their preconceived verdict of trump being guilty.

Because if/when Trump gets past this unscathed, the left/libs will still be moaning about the next perceived scandal du jour.

Russia!


victor809 Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Mhmmm... So NOW you have a problem with investigations that aren't over until a crime is found?


Users browsing this topic
Guest