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Last post 2 months ago by KingoftheCove. 69 replies replies.
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Aging Advice
Greggilmore99 Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
I picked up a few 5-ers to try different brands. New to Cigars and dont have a "go to" yet or even really know what I prefer
as far as Wrapper, Filler, Binder, Body. Only thing I am certain of is shape: Robusto.

Ramon Bueso-Genesis the Project.
5 Vegas - Gold
RP - Catch 22
Diesel - Unholy Cocktail
Foundry- Chillin Moose
Ave Maria - Argentum
MUWAT - Baitfish

Reading the Forum I know the AJ's need to be put aside and forgotten for a while...

Any advice on the others?

Thanks.
Salmoneye Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-18-2011
Posts: 154
IMNSHO, nothing on that list will benefit from aging...

But that's just me...

shaun341 Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-02-2012
Posts: 8,073
I would say Diesel is a brand that strikes me as one to put aside for awhile, but then again I am not sure if AJ is still the producer of that label. The rest I wouldn't know much about. There is a thread that got topped recently on the Genesis the Project and the quality of them going south.

The Argentum sounds like a candidate to age but that is because when I see broadleaf maduro I instantly think of Tat Reservas and they age well.

Best way to go about it is to try one rott and then every few months honestly to tell what will happen.
stinger88 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 5,108
I agree with salmon. They might get a little better but would take years.

However, the Baitfish are my favorite short smoke. They wouldn’t make it long in my humidor anyways. They are usually good straight out of the store, if they were humidified correctly. If not, give them a couple weeks in your humidor and then smoke those babies up.

David
danmdevries Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 02-11-2014
Posts: 10,062
stinger88 wrote:
I agree with salmon. They might get a little better but would take years.

However, the Baitfish are my favorite short smoke. They wouldn’t make it long in my humidor anyways. They are usually good straight out of the store, if they were humidified correctly. If not, give them a couple weeks in your humidor and then smoke those babies up.

David


x2

I miss the days of sub $2 BaitFish.
tonygraz Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 10,374
Aside from the Unholy Cocktail and the Muwats the rest of your stash are yar gars- smoke them whenever you like. It is a good idea to let any cigar rest in a humidor for at least a week.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
Greggilmore99 wrote:
I picked up a few 5-ers to try different brands. New to Cigars and dont have a "go to" yet or even really know what I prefer
as far as Wrapper, Filler, Binder, Body. Only thing I am certain of is shape: Robusto.

If you like Robustos, try Toros too. My pal jokingly calls the Toro the "Robusto Extra". It's basically a Robusto with 1 extra inch of length added. As he rightfully points out, regardless of cigar length, you lose about 1 inch at the head because you have to hold the cigar, and even if you use a clip or nail, the last inch is often too hot and bitter anyway. Therefore, the shorter the cigar, the biggest a loss that last inch is, percentage-wise:

Robusto: that unsmokeable inch is a 20% loss.
Toro: that unsmokeable inch is a 16.7% loss.
Churchill: that unsmokeable inch is a 14.3% loss.
8-inch vitolas: that unsmokeable inch is a 12.5% loss.

You lose less of the overall length of the cigar with a Toro than with a Robusto.

As for your mentioned cigars:

Ramon Bueso-Genesis the Project - These improve with a few years, but not as much as other stuff such as AJ's cigars.

5 Vegas - Gold - No apparent improvements regardless of aging time. Remember, mild cigars typically don't age well, and don't improve.

Diesel - Unholy Cocktail - These are by AJ and get much better with age, losing all bitterness and a little strength but gaining much complexity. Note, I got all mine years ago, AJ may not make them anymore, this is unclear.

Ave Maria - Argentum - These are also supposedly by AJ, or at least were when I got mine (who knows today though?). I got a batch of them in 2016 (Morningstar vitola) and at the time they were frankly rather crappy, but instead of returning them, I knew to sit on them instead. Thankfully they are JUST NOW starting to taste halfway-decent, in early 2019. Maybe by 2021 they'll be really good, so I'm sitting on the rest for a few more years. Age the hell out of them, I'd say! Or, don't bother and get something that doesn't need so damned much age to get good.

MUWAT Baitfish - I have a lot of this vitola's brother, the Nightcrawler, from back when "the mothership" had a BOGO-plus-Bucks-card deal that made each brown paper 10-pack net out to about $12 each (I know, right? I ordered a large quantity!). If I remember right though, that was early or mid-2018, less than a year ago, so I have no real data on significant aging. Try the Nightcrawler vitola though, same blend as Baitfish but a bit larger (4.5x50 Rothschild size) and longer-lasting, created when people kept pestering Drew for a "bigger baitfish, please!" because while delicious, they didn't last long enough. They're considered by many including myself to the best MUWAT vitola of the entire line.

Quote:
Reading the Forum I know the AJ's need to be put aside and forgotten for a while...

Heavy in the affirmative!
.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
But should you age cellos on or off???

horse
Greggilmore99 Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
Thanks for all the good info. I may get this figured out eventually.
Greggilmore99 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
Sunoverbeach wrote:
But should you age cellos on or off???

horse



You actually covered that in my n00b intro post..

You recommended off for aging and on for smoking.....

Sarcasm
RMAN4443 Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,016
I've had them roasted and pan-fried, but I never tried to smoke one...Think
Pudding Mittens Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
.
Oh, I forgot to mention: although I don't have much personal experience aging MUWATs yet, I've heard people use the nickname "MU-WAIT" for them, because supposedly you have to age them a pretty good amount of time to maximize their flavor potential.

I can tell you that the 9-10 months of age on my Nightcrawlers have indeed helped them noticeably, but I suspect more age will help even more.

Hope that helps!
.
Greggilmore99 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
So guys,

What is yall's go to, everyday, no special occasion stick?

Start throwing suggestions out.

I would like to hear the ones yall are smokin.

smokestaxx Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-27-2012
Posts: 4,074
Greggilmore99 wrote:
I picked up a few 5-ers to try different brands. New to Cigars and dont have a "go to" yet or even really know what I prefer
as far as Wrapper, Filler, Binder, Body. Only thing I am certain of is shape: Robusto.

Ramon Bueso-Genesis the Project.
5 Vegas - Gold
RP - Catch 22
Diesel - Unholy Cocktail
Foundry- Chillin Moose
Ave Maria - Argentum
MUWAT - Baitfish

Reading the Forum I know the AJ's need to be put aside and forgotten for a while...

Any advice on the others?

Thanks.

Just smoke what you got. Then smoke some more. I wouldn't worry about aging cigars at the moment. Figure out what you like and don't like.

I was at a cigar event once and Hamlet Paredes (of Rocky Patel) was Rollin fresh cigars and some one asked him a question about aging specific cigars. He said if you age a chit cigar it's still going to be a chit cigar.
Now what is chit to some one might be great to another but it's something to keep in mind.
smokestaxx Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-27-2012
Posts: 4,074
Also if your looking for suggestions, try La Aurora.
They can be found here as well as other places for a good price.
They make cheaper cigars as well as more expensive cigars but every one I've had from them has been worth it.
They've also been around for 100 something years so they know what they're doing.
smokestaxx Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-27-2012
Posts: 4,074
My favorite/go to brand is La Flor Dominicana
They're more mid range and up for pricing.
Also a majority of their smokes are stronger and full bodied but are very, very consistent and equally as good.
I've rarely been let down by them.
KingoftheCove Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,134
smokestaxx wrote:
My favorite/go to brand is La Flor Dominicana
They're more mid range and up for pricing.
Also a majority of their smokes are stronger and full bodied but are very, very consistent and equally as good.
I've rarely been let down by them.

Heh heh.....smoking a 5 year old Air Bender Matatan while I’m typing this........very good.
I was lucky to get the box, given the fact that Whistle was buying literally every LFD for sale back then...
ram27bat
ZRX1200 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 48,742
Gregticklememore I would suggest for fresh cigars try an Opus X #4 and an LFD Chisilitto maduro as great fresh cigars for the morning.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
.
Greggilmore99, you say you're new to cigars, so you may not have experienced this yet, but don't be surprised if you do: Some cigar guys get absolutely nothing out of highly-respected brands that many other cigar guys love and gush about.

For instance, I find Fuentes and Ashtons (which are made by Fuente, if I remember right) to be pretty bland and flavorless, ditto almost all Davidoffs (except stuff like their Nicaraguan lines). Several of my cigar buddies agree that they taste like hot air, and little else.

Many other cigar guys love these brands and consider them full of flavor and excellent.

Palates vary wildly, and there is no right or wrong, just apparently a lot of anatomical differences between people. If you dislike a cigar lots of other people fervently love, it doesn't mean you're weird or wrong. Keep that in mind.
.
Greggilmore99 Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
Thanks,

All helpful advice.
Palama Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 02-05-2013
Posts: 10,966
Another thing to keep in mind, if you keep buying cigars at a decent clip (...I’m gonna assume you’ll be in your “acquisition” phase for a few more months, maybe even years...), you will naturally age / rest your cigars. At some point down the road, you’re gonna look back and laugh at your angst over this question. Herfing
Greggilmore99 Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 12-05-2018
Posts: 52
Palama wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind, if you keep buying cigars at a decent clip (...I’m gonna assume you’ll be in your “acquisition” phase for a few more months, maybe even years...), you will naturally age / rest your cigars. At some point down the road, you’re gonna look back and laugh at your angst over this question. Herfing




ThumpUp
Sunoverbeach Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
Couple of my main go-tos are LA Auroras and Anything Asylum that's not an Insidious. Sweet caps usually turn me off.

All of my aging is accidental as I have zero chill when I have a new cigar in my possession. Like Palama alluded to, it just happens while you're trying everything else
Abrignac Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 14,266
About 5 years ago I went on a spree buying as many boxes of LaAurora 1495 Robustos for about $40 per. Buried them for a few years then enjoyed many, many excellent $2 smokes.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
Had a similar spree with the Untamed a couple years back. My only regret is allowing the wife to be aware of how many boxes showed up at the house
Pudding Mittens Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
Sunoverbeach wrote:
Had a similar spree with the Untamed a couple years back.

I bought 3 boxes of Untamed back when the "Very Well-Known" cigar company was inexplicably selling boxes of them for around $40 while everyone else was charging $160.

Put them away for aging. Never got around to smoking one yet.

Are they any good? They sure smelled good when I sniffed inside the box!

Do I have to look forward to greatness, mediocre-ness, or lameness? Thanks.

Quote:
My only regret is allowing the wife to be aware of how many boxes showed up at the house

No such problems here. My motto is, "NO WIFE, HAPPY LIFE!".
.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
Abrignac wrote:
About 5 years ago I went on a spree buying as many boxes of LaAurora 1495 Robustos for about $40 per. Buried them for a few years then enjoyed many, many excellent $2 smokes.

This is my general strategy, not specifically with that cigar but with ALL cigars.

1. Find crazy-cheap deal (closeout, liquidation, whatever) on boxes of a quality cigar with good aging potential (strong, etc.)
2. Buy a schittload, put them away.
3. Wait several years.
4. Enjoy dirt-cheap, excellent-tasting aged smokes.

It works great. Requires a lot of money up-front though, with nothing to show for it until years later. But I don't mind! Might be a deal-breaker for some guys though.
.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
IMO you have some good times ahead of you. I stocked up around the same time I'm guessing. Loved them new. Love them aged, and no complaints at all points in between.

Fair warning though: this was one of my early discoveries after breaking out of my super mild intro period. So, may be a case of you always remember your first love

On the wife end, I acquired her before I started acquiring cigars, but if I ditch her now I won't be able to afford cigars. Catch 22, not just another RP blend
Pudding Mittens Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
.
By the way, they have the "Untamed EXTREME" on sale now, 24-boxes for $62 (5x50) and $73 (5.5x54). Not sure what the difference is, extreme versus original. I assume the extreme has more strength.
.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
Have some of those from around the same time. I believed the same as far as strength but really think the original had more power. Definitely the original had better overall balance and flavor. Extreme still a decent smoke but I'd take the plain Untamed any day over them
Sunoverbeach Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
And if your palate disagrees with mine I'd be happy to take those boxes off your hands at deeply discounted savings (on my end), as a favor of course.
Whistle

I noticed the LA site doesn't list this blend anymore so assuming it's an endangered species
bs_kwaj Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 02-13-2006
Posts: 5,100

Aging advice:

New prescription for glasses
New nose hair trimmer
Naproxen Sodium
Don't run
Less Alcohol
Strong cigars to show off for the kids

Basic stuff . . .

fog


Sunoverbeach Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
Will the nose hair trimmer work for ear hair as well or do you need to specialize? Also, any recommendation on jock support brand to keep from tripping on the sac?
live4cigars Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2014
Posts: 22
Terrific discussion brothers! Wish I were around for it or have the time to post more now, but just gotta weigh in to say thanks and kudos for making the whole aging topic so much more specific and democratic-minded than elsewhere. I’m an OCD collector and huge fan of aging, even if just for the fun challenge of it, so have read and gathered tons of info about it. U guys give great advice, r true brothers of the leaf, and Puddin’s wisdom is dead-on according to my experience. Way to care for a noob brothers! Much respect.
Pudding Mittens Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
live4cigars wrote:
Puddin’s wisdom is dead-on according to my experience. Way to care for a noob brothers! Much respect.

Thanks much, glad someone agrees! Rock on!
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gummy jones Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 6,746
queue aging vs resting debate
frankj1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,335
gummy jones wrote:
queue aging vs resting debate

I do both at the same time...on da couch.
dstieger Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,671
The ager I get, the more rest I need
dstieger Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,671
Or..what Frank said
frankj1 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 26,335
I told my wife I am multi-tasking
gummy jones Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 6,746
frankj1 wrote:
I do both at the same time...on da couch.


im juss simmerin
dstieger Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,671
But, gummy is right. I've had a difference in opinion from puddin about this in the past. IMO, non-Cubans really only benefit from aging (resting) when they were brought to market to quickly. Some NC's will benefit from a year of rest. I don't recommend buying many (any?) NCs with intent to age. Buy better cigars that are ready to smoke...if they end up sitting in your humid for a while and get some aging, fine. Or buy Cubans and do some controlled experiments with real aging....buy Cubans in pairs of boxes and bury one...keep notes as you smoke through the other over the course of years.
KingoftheCove Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-08-2011
Posts: 5,134
dstieger wrote:
But, gummy is right. I've had a difference in opinion from puddin about this in the past. IMO, non-Cubans really only benefit from aging (resting) when they were brought to market to quickly. Some NC's will benefit from a year of rest. I don't recommend buying many (any?) NCs with intent to age. Buy better cigars that are ready to smoke...if they end up sitting in your humid for a while and get some aging, fine. Or buy Cubans and do some controlled experiments with real aging....buy Cubans in pairs of boxes and bury one...keep notes as you smoke through the other over the course of years.

I'm kinda slow........so please explain this to me.
Is NC tobacco inferior?
Is NC tobacco already aged to the point where any additional time doesn't matter?

I ask, because from my limited experience, I've absolutely found, stored, aged, and smoked NC cigars, that were much better at 3, 4 and 5+ years, than they were at 1 year, or less.
dstieger Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,671
KotC, I cant say that I know enough about the production of either to say why. I wouldn't ever make a blanket statement about whether Cuban or non-Cuban tobacco is superior. I do believe that many NC blends involve higher degrees of fermentation and that may play a role in how a cigar changes with age...and perhaps amplify the risk of pushing it out the door too soon. But I just have not experienced the marked improvement in 3+ year old NC cigars that you have. If anything, the NC cigars I like most generally tend to diminish after years, IMO.
Anyway, maybe gerbs, or another smart guy will explain production more. I suspect that quality NC filler and wrapper is typically aged longer than Cuban tobacco....and maybe that would explain what I think I've experienced.
mjrburn Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 02-28-2016
Posts: 493
I have little to no cc experience, but I can honestly say that the nc smokes I've put back (due to lack of interest) have for the most part gotten much more appealing after a couple of years rest... may be that my taste has changed, may be that I am less objective now that I have tried so many different blends, may be that some vets have subliminally convinced me that aged is better, but I know I find those that were once too strong and peppery to be much more appealing now. With one exception, the Connecticut cigars do not age favorably... my $0.02.
Cereal City Cigar Smoker Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 03-30-2006
Posts: 14,020
I have a ton of well aged cigars, both Cuban and NC. Bought when I was working and had lot to choose to smoke. Most stayed in my humidors while I was doing interim work. As I begin to smoke these cigars, now 5-12 years old, I can't really recall how they first tasted. Think However, they are quite enjoyable, even some of the RPs, CAOs, Toranos and Perdomos. Maybe my taste buds just aged along with the cigars. :-"

My 3¢

c3s
mjrburn Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 02-28-2016
Posts: 493
^^^ this guy... some very fine, well aged smokes!
Pudding Mittens Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 08-15-2016
Posts: 652
.
As far as I know, there's nothing magical or excessively special about Cuban tobacco, versus Nicaraguan, Honduran, Dominican, etc. tobaccos. Just different geographic areas, soils and climate. The plant, while having several strains of course, is basically the same thing. Tobacco grown in Cuba doesn't magically get hugely more benefit out of aging than does tobacco grown in any other nearby country.

Here's what I suspect gets people confused: In general, Cuba, having that famous commie Q.C. or lack thereof, is more likely to ship super-young product. Non-Cuban stuff is capitalist-made and has better Q.C., so is more likely to do more pre-ship aging than the Cuban stuff gets.

Theoretical example time! Let's say a certain Cuban cigar gets no aging before shipping, and a certain non-Cuban cigar gets, say, 24 months of aging before shipping.

Remember that in general, aging's benefits are a diminishing-return phenomenon, meaning usually the earlier years produce far more improvement than the later years do.

Putting this all together, and ignoring distribution/shipping times for simplicity:

The Cuban cigars get in customer hands after 0 months. Customers smoke one immediately, then age them for 2 years and then smoke some then and say, "Wow, 2 years of age has made this Cuban FAR better than when it was new! Clearly, aging REALLY helps Cuban cigars!"

The non-Cuban cigars get in customer hands after 24 months. Customers smoke one immediately, then age them for 2 years and then smoke some then and say, "Well, this is better than when I got it 2 years ago, but not nearly as much better as the Cuban became during that same 2 year wait! Clearly, aging doesn't really help non-Cuban cigars as much!"

The critical point is: although to the customer it seems like both these experiments are testing the amount of improvement between 0 and 2 years, in reality only the former (Cuban) is testing that. The latter (non-Cuban) is actually testing improvements between the 2 and 4 year mark instead.

Usually, the noticeable improvements between the 0 and 2 year mark will be far greater than those between the 2 and 4 year mark.

I believe this is the origin of the widespread misconception that "Aging helps Cubans, but it doesn't really help non-Cubans"

Aging helps both equally, it's just that with Cubans, you're doing what the factory should've already done, and the largest improvements happen in that initial timespan.
.
Sunoverbeach Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 938
^^ I'd read somewhere that this theory is accurate. Cuba tends to race these to the boat, both for revenue needs and supply/demand is so short/great respectively
Thunder.Gerbil Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 120,249
dstieger wrote:
KotC, I cant say that I know enough about the production of either to say why. I wouldn't ever make a blanket statement about whether Cuban or non-Cuban tobacco is superior. I do believe that many NC blends involve higher degrees of fermentation and that may play a role in how a cigar changes with age...and perhaps amplify the risk of pushing it out the door too soon. But I just have not experienced the marked improvement in 3+ year old NC cigars that you have. If anything, the NC cigars I like most generally tend to diminish after years, IMO.
Anyway, maybe gerbs, or another smart guy will explain production more. I suspect that quality NC filler and wrapper is typically aged longer than Cuban tobacco....and maybe that would explain what I think I've experienced.


I don't think there are any absolutes, at least none that I have experienced. I've had NC cigars that are exactly as you describe and others that do improve. I've had Cuban cigars that improved, and Cuban cigars that lost their luster.

Aging tobacco is a big investment in product, storage and is still a gamble. Something could go wrong in the process, it could be ravaged by insects / rodents, the warehouse could burn down... How many barns of tobacco did Fuente lose last year to fire? 8 or 10? Huge ones too.

Not all tobacco is worth the investment. Some of the lower cost, lower margin cigars don't get much pre-aging on their tobacco. 6 months, maybe a year. 1-1/2 to 2 for the wrapper leaf. The cigar is rolled, stored for 60-90 days for the added extra moisture needed for the rolling process to dissipate, then it's banded, boxed/bundled, crated and shipped. Obviously cigars like that have the highest likelihood of changing.

Cuban cigars used to be that way, a few still are. Cuba has been moving more towards using aged tobacco in recent years. Most of the more famous / globally known marques are using it. Habanos is very secretive, they aren't saying how much age, I've heard 2-3 years, maybe a bit longer for Capa leaves. How accurate is that information I can't say, but I can say that I've had a lot of fresh stuff over the past few years that is all very smokeable.

Very few finished cigars are stored for long periods at the manufacturer, in any country. This is just sitting on potential revenue and risking loss. There are some, but it's a small percentage.

Something else to remember about NC cigars is that almost none use date codes, so it's hard to say how long that cigar has been sitting at the distributor / retailer. That NC cigar we think of as fresh because climate controlled warehouse storage is different than humidors, might actually have sat for 2-3 years. I've been able to knowingly experience this first hand a number of times with JR Ultimates as their boxes are hand dated in pencil when packed. I've gotten 3 year old boxes before, but, if that marking wasn't there, I wouldn't have known. Unlike an overseas order, where everything has a date on it.

So, maybe you have a situation where your cigar is made with 2-3 year old tobacco, then the box sits at the distributor for another 2 years. That's 5 years before you get it, this could possibly explain of what you, me and a few others have experienced with NC stuff not taking well to additional aging.

And, just like wine, some tobacco / blends doesn't age well. It peaks, some earlier than others. I think this is exists in every growing region in every country. No different than wine.

Don't know if that helps or makes it even more confusing, but it's what I typed.
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