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Shocking moment conservative activist is punched in the face on UC-Berkeley campus...
delta1 Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,834
as victor alluded to, 18 U.S. Code § 249, section (b) does address the circumstance where the feds may step in to charge a criminal for a hate crime if the state fails to do so...

a key phrase in that section is "eradicating bias-motivated violence" ...some who have not been subjected to non-violent or violent discrimination may have difficulty grasping this concept... imagine being afraid to go out at night for your entire life for fear that you could end up in the hospital or worse, for no other reason than how you look...

in 1985, while out jogging (I used to run before my knees wore out) down the street in the SoCal city where I lived, a pick-up truck with several white male teens sitting in the bed drove by me...as the truck slowed, a couple of the guys threw oranges at me, and yelled "go back where you came from, **** (pejorative for Chinese)" ...assault, with hateful intent...unreported, which most of these incidents are...
DrafterX Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
poor CROS.... Sad
victor809 Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Tail, don't get hung up on the term "hate crime"... Consider it identity based terrorism....
The intent in those cases is larger than the crime itself. They aren't just hitting someone with a bat because they want to hit someone with a bat, they want to eradicate or subdue an entire group.

You hang a black man so that the rest of the blacks stay "in line".
You beat a "phag" with a bat so the rest of them know better than to sashay around in those tight jeans and open collars that make you feel funny in your groin.

Sure there's grey area, and sure every case needs to be tried and determined accurately whether theres a hate crime... But the reason this exists is because the people really committing hate crimes are trying to accomplish something more than just the crime itself... Whether they consciously know it or not.
JadeRose Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 17,415
Where's jimmy and bloody when we need them.
DrafterX Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
Prolly screwing chikens.. Mellow
tailgater Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
Speyside wrote:
Tail, as a generality you are correct. But I think Victor is describing very specific circumstances. A guy lynching a black man while wearing a Klan robe and hood is commuting a hate crime. There is no wiggle room here. A guy dragging a gay man down the road with a bumper sticker that says death to gays, who is also shouting die homo die is committing a hate crime. This is black and white. And so on.


I'm glad we have laws that cover .000000000000002% of the crimes.

tailgater Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
Tail, don't get hung up on the term "hate crime"... Consider it identity based terrorism....
The intent in those cases is larger than the crime itself. They aren't just hitting someone with a bat because they want to hit someone with a bat, they want to eradicate or subdue an entire group.

You hang a black man so that the rest of the blacks stay "in line".
You beat a "phag" with a bat so the rest of them know better than to sashay around in those tight jeans and open collars that make you feel funny in your groin.

Sure there's grey area, and sure every case needs to be tried and determined accurately whether theres a hate crime... But the reason this exists is because the people really committing hate crimes are trying to accomplish something more than just the crime itself... Whether they consciously know it or not.


You're right.
But since the American judicial system circa 2019 still doesn't have the means to detect intent, the VAST majority of "hate crimes" or "identity based terrorism" lies in the grey area.


Look. There are reasons to commit crimes. Some make sense. Most don't.
High on that list of "doesn't make sense" is attacking a group of people not for what they do, but for who they are.
But even if we agree on the stupidity of it all, it doesn't make the crime worse.

If my mother was killed yesterday by a dude breaking into her house for money, it doesn't make her death (or the crime of committing it) any less significant than if my Jewish neighbor's mom was killed by someone who hated Jews and had a swastika on their forehead.

Not sure why it's even a debate.






tailgater Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
DrafterX wrote:
Prolly screwing chikens.. Mellow


But who came first?

victor809 Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Tail... It may not make a difference to you or your mother, but it would make a difference to all the remaining Jewish mothers in your neighborhood who are now afraid of being targeted for being Jewish.

Punishment isnt in place to benefit the victims. It's intended to benefit society.
JadeRose Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 05-15-2008
Posts: 17,415
DrafterX wrote:
Prolly screwing chikens.. Mellow




Couldn't you go for some chikens right now?
DrafterX Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
You wish.. Not talking
victor809 Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Drafter sure does love watching Bloodsport f-k those chickens tho.....
frankj1 Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
victor809 wrote:
Tail... It may not make a difference to you or your mother, but it would make a difference to all the remaining Jewish mothers in your neighborhood who are now afraid of being targeted for being Jewish.

Punishment isnt in place to benefit the victims. It's intended to benefit society.

the truth is, I'm not sure on which side of the tw fence post I fall.

but of all the things tossed out there on both sides of the discussion over the need for the designation "hate" added to a (violent) crime, Victor has hit upon the one thing I've always held in my gut and that is hard to qualify but is likely a real motivation for the perpetrator...

the goal: make 'em all scared!

scared to be in public, scared to make eye contact, scared to live free in the land of the free.

drag a black guy behind a pick up truck, that's way louder of a statement than hating that individual because of the color of his skin, that's a threat message to all blacks in town. It has nothing in common with a random bat beating by a lunatic other than the physical damage done to the victim.

Yet I'm still wrestling with my feelings on laws for this, certainly over when and where they should apply.

I recall being 7 or 8 years old and drawing swastikas with a friend. Neither of us had a clue...and that was barely 20 years after the Liberation of the Concentration Camps. I've seen the same nazi graffitti drawn on Synagogue doors, gravestones in Jewish cemeteries, bridges over highways...and easily dismissed it as stupidity.

But stuff that is horrifyingly violent, true message crimes...I dunno. I'm still listening. This one is not as easy for me as others here.
DrafterX Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
But of course but the Nazis stole the swastika..... It was an Indian design originally.. Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
DrafterX wrote:
But of course but the Nazis stole the swastika..... It was an Indian design originally.. Mellow

not Comanche though...
tailgater Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
Tail... It may not make a difference to you or your mother, but it would make a difference to all the remaining Jewish mothers in your neighborhood who are now afraid of being targeted for being Jewish.

Punishment isnt in place to benefit the victims. It's intended to benefit society.


So when a white suburban neighborhood is afraid because an Hispanic man committed a felony, the guy should be charged more severely than his crime?
Let's face it: there are a LOT of black criminals who literally hate white people.
I think it would be imprudent to categorically dole out more severe sentences when they're caught committing a crime against the whites.

It would be better to consider the crimes of a white supremacist (for instance) as an act of terror when appropriate.
thus preventing the "hate crime" tag whenever there is white-on-minority crimes.

As for punishment benefiting society rather than the victims?
Perhaps we should start a new thread regarding tort reform.






Ewok126 Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 06-25-2017
Posts: 4,333
tailgater wrote:
But who came first?




The Roster?
dstieger Online
#118 Posted:
Joined: 06-22-2007
Posts: 9,954
Something to think about, Frank. Thanks. I guess if I were to consider community intimidation as a separate 'act', maybe it could be easier to 'justify'.
victor809 Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Tail... If you don't think punishment is intended to benefit society and not the victims then feel free to put that to the test.

Go kill a person with no known relatives or friends. Then, since no one knows he's dead, go tell the cops. Let them know that there are no living victims so you shouldn't be punished. Since the dead aren't benefitted by your punishment there is nothing they can do to you.
DrafterX Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
So, as long as you kill da whole family it's cool... Think
delta1 Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 16,834
tailgater wrote:
So when a white suburban neighborhood is afraid because an Hispanic man committed a felony, the guy should be charged more severely than his crime?
Let's face it: there are a LOT of black criminals who literally hate white people.
I think it would be imprudent to categorically dole out more severe sentences when they're caught committing a crime against the whites.

It would be better to consider the crimes of a white supremacist (for instance) as an act of terror when appropriate.
thus preventing the "hate crime" tag whenever there is white-on-minority crimes.

As for punishment benefiting society rather than the victims?
Perhaps we should start a new thread regarding tort reform.








that's part of the myth: white people are charged with hate crimes when the victim is a minority...

in fact, people from all races and nationalities and religions have been prosecuted for hate crimes...

here are stats of identified offenders from FBI Crime Report of 2017...over the past few years, whites make up about half of all offenders

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/offenders


and the actual prosecution of the crime as a hate crime includes a legal requirement that actual bias was proven to be the motive, proven with actual evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for the additional penalty to apply...it is NOT ASSUMED, just because the criminal is white and the victim is a minority...

think of it in terms similar for what is required for capital murder... the criminal gets the death penalty, rather than the usual 25 years-to-life if the prosecution can prove additional malicious intent...

but I doubt the actual data will change your mind about how the criminal justice system is unfair to whites only as it relates to hate crimes...

frankj1 Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
dstieger wrote:
Something to think about, Frank. Thanks. I guess if I were to consider community intimidation as a separate 'act', maybe it could be easier to 'justify'.

even with all I wrote, I am not firmly on one side or the other...so far.
It's a yuuuggge legal statement.
tailgater Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
Tail... If you don't think punishment is intended to benefit society and not the victims then feel free to put that to the test.

Go kill a person with no known relatives or friends. Then, since no one knows he's dead, go tell the cops. Let them know that there are no living victims so you shouldn't be punished. Since the dead aren't benefitted by your punishment there is nothing they can do to you.


I hope I'm not dumber for reading this.
Because you are certainly dumber for writing it.

victor809 Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Mhmm.... Dead guy doesn't care if I'm charged with a hate crime or shoplifting.

The punishment is to satisfy and protect society.
tailgater Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
delta1 wrote:
that's part of the myth: white people are charged with hate crimes when the victim is a minority...

in fact, people from all races and nationalities and religions have been prosecuted for hate crimes...

here are stats of identified offenders from FBI Crime Report of 2017...over the past few years, whites make up about half of all offenders

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/offenders


and the actual prosecution of the crime as a hate crime includes a legal requirement that actual bias was proven to be the motive, proven with actual evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for the additional penalty to apply...it is NOT ASSUMED, just because the criminal is white and the victim is a minority...

think of it in terms similar for what is required for capital murder... the criminal gets the death penalty, rather than the usual 25 years-to-life if the prosecution can prove additional malicious intent...

but I doubt the actual data will change your mind about how the criminal justice system is unfair to whites only as it relates to hate crimes...



You're looking for smoke where there is no fire my friend.
I'm not lamenting over poor whitey being treated unfairly.
I was citing an example. A "for instance" type of scenario.

Most crimes that are reported to be "hate crimes" are just crimes.
Despite what Victor is saying, most of these do not create a murmur of fear throughout a community.
Most are just violent acts by dumb people who deserve to be punished.

But like most laws, the most important thing isn't to catch and punish those who violate it.
The most important thing is to make sure those who are innocent are not caught in the web.

tailgater Offline
#126 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
Mhmm.... Dead guy doesn't care if I'm charged with a hate crime or shoplifting.

The punishment is to satisfy and protect society.


This is fun.

So if I were to blatantly murder a known child molester (with no family) in Trump's Times Square, I guess I wouldn't be brought up on charges.
victor809 Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
By your logic yes.

I'm just telling you to do it because you seemed to think you wouldn't.
tailgater Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
Dude, that's your logic, not mine.

Sorry to use it against you.

Don't treat this with tunnel vision. Punishment is essentially what is deserved for breaking a law.


Hell, look at the Smollett fiasco.

He didn't fake a simple mugging.

He faked a HATE crime.
Because some people think that has more teeth.



victor809 Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
Um... Maybe you misread my posts tail.
I stated that punishment had nothing to do with the victims (because you argued that your dead mother doesn't care if her killer is charged with a hate crime or not). My point is that the charge and punishment isn't for her benefit anyway... It's for society's benefit, which can be illustrated by repercussions from either of the two crimes above.
victor809 Offline
#130 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
(if any of this is unclear to you, remember society still benefits greater, or at least believes it does, from law abiding people than from dead child molesters)
DrafterX Offline
#131 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
There's people who molest dead children out there..?? OhMyGod
teedubbya Offline
#132 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 85,157
It would be funnier if the children were wearing clown suits
RMAN4443 Offline
#133 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,376
victor809 wrote:
Mhmm.... Dead guy doesn't care if I'm charged with a hate crime or shoplifting.

The punishment is to satisfy and protect society.

Charge of shoplifting generally protects the business being shoplifted from, not society...the slap on the hand for shoplifting (small fine, restitution, and a banning from the store), does not protect society at large...Not talking
Speyside Offline
#134 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 7,853
Pretty sure shoplifting has no variants that are a hate crime. Why use an example that doesn't relate to the discussion? Pretty sure there are no identifiable groups of people shoplifting is directed towards.
RMAN4443 Offline
#135 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,376
Speyside wrote:
Pretty sure shoplifting has no variants that are a hate crime. Why use an example that doesn't relate to the discussion? Pretty sure there are no identifiable groups of people shoplifting is directed towards.

Commenting on victor's example given in post #124...
Speyside Offline
#136 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 7,853
Ah, missed that.
frankj1 Offline
#137 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
well, all he said was that the dead victim has no concern of the eventual charges, he did not say that shop lifting could ever be a hate crime.
tailgater Offline
#138 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
Um... Maybe you misread my posts tail.
I stated that punishment had nothing to do with the victims (because you argued that your dead mother doesn't care if her killer is charged with a hate crime or not). My point is that the charge and punishment isn't for her benefit anyway... It's for society's benefit, which can be illustrated by repercussions from either of the two crimes above.


I know WHAT you're saying. I just disagree.
I gave a quick example of how society would benefit from a crime, but the perpetrator would still be charged with the crime.
Odd how you ignore that while simultaneously continueing with your weak argument.


victor809 Offline
#139 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 18,122
You assume 1 dead child molester is more valuable than the breakdown of law and order.
tailgater Offline
#140 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
Here's the reader's digest version:

You're watching the 6:00 news because the new anchor has nice ta-tas.

You see a story about a white guy beating up a black guy during a road rage incident.

You then hear how the cops are looking to investigate if it's a hate crime.


NOBODY benefits from that type of mentality.


And eliminating the weak-minded "hate crime" moniker doesn't mean we'd have to ignore when a fellow is found to be stalking a clearly defined group of people in hopes of hurting them or worse.
Whether that group is a protected minority, or an association like PETA, the law shouldn't treat the criminal differently.

Well, maybe PETA was a poor example.


tailgater Offline
#141 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 23,179
victor809 wrote:
You assume 1 dead child molester is more valuable than the breakdown of law and order.


I've already given my thoughts on using societal emotions to dole out the law.

We saw how that worked prior to civil rights in the south.

Maintaining mob rules isn't akin to law and order.

And you're shifting the subject in an attempt to make a point that I understand but disagree with.

Don't.



RMAN4443 Offline
#142 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,376
frankj1 wrote:
well, all he said was that the dead victim has no concern of the eventual charges, he did not say that shop lifting could ever be a hate crime.

No,but he did say that the punishment for shoplifting is to "satisfy and protect society"...
frankj1 Offline
#143 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
RMAN4443 wrote:
No,but he did say that the punishment for shoplifting is to "satisfy and protect society"...

I'm not satisfied
RMAN4443 Offline
#144 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 5,376
No one is...Anxious
frankj1 Offline
#145 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 27,423
true, true.
teedubbya Offline
#146 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 85,157
I can’t get no
DrafterX Offline
#147 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 88,310
I try... Mellow
fishinguitarman Offline
#148 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 66,760
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