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I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff... I used to buy a lot of bulk stuff from China... Any time I was buying something on Amazon I'd go and check the Chinese equivalent...

Sometimes it was cheaper because it was a knock off, but not always... Sometimes it was just cheaper, often times much cheaper...

Then I did some light thinking and realized, these Chinese goods are cheaper mostly for 2 reasons:

1. Inhumane treatment of employees (low pay, being forced to live at work, child labor).

2. No expensive environmental regulations.


So I stopped buying from China... Kinda seems like if you do business with them, you're fighting against the American system of liveable wages and protections for the planet...

Seems like if someone levied some sort of tax that made Chinese products roughly the same price as goods from countries that don't treat their workers like government owned slaves, it would encourage people from places like America to buy from places like America... Or to manufacture in America, recognizing that the expensive environmental regulations that make our prices non competitive with communist countries are there for the protections of generations to come...

Ok now someone tell me why I'm wrong cuz I know it's more complicated than what I've made it out to be...

If you wanna get murdered in China, my guess is that attempting to start a workers union is amongst the quickest ways...

But as much as I hate our unions, They were good at one time, and they could be good for China for a time...

A bit ironic in that many (most?) people would associate unions with socialism or even communism

Again, self proclaimed idiot on these things, but it seems to me that unions in America once did what the government wouldn't...

But now the government has and enforces laws that protect worker safety, worker treatment, and even guarantees them a minimum pay...

Unions lost their relevancy, but not their thirst for money...

I agree with both #7 and #8. I think one risk economically is that American companies may feel their hands are forced in order to compete with the Chinese in the world market. If the Chinese don't pay their workers and don't show any regard to environmental concerns then they definitely have lower production costs than a similar product made in the US. A buyer in BFE is gonna go with the cheap one IF quality isn't an issue.

Population control?

I got peronies from it and it became an ingrown hair. We had to pluck it.

it's more complicated, but I'm not very knowledgeable about int'nl trade either....China's economy is intertwined with the US economy...there are thousands of US companies with factories or production plants in China, to exploit cheap labor...if Trump is serious about improving trade with China, he would develop economic policies to incentivize American companies to return home, or to punish them for moving off-shore...

http://www.jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

that's not going to happen...an example is Harley Davidson, who said they would stay while Trump was campaigning, then left anyway for greener pastures...


imposing tariffs only raises the costs for American consumers, and marginally affects demand for Chinese goods, which can be sold elsewhere...so Trump should band together with all the other nations that are markets for Chinese goods, to work out a trade agreement...oh shucks, he backed out of TPP...


so , Trump's America First nationalism may be a policy objective that sounds good, and appeals to a small segment of Americans who want to make America great again by going it alone, but ignores the globalization that is rapidly becoming the standard world economic practice, and America should try to reassert and maintain leadership towards that effort, by partnering with a greater number of countries with diverse markets and resources to increase our bargaining position, which will benefit us more...

No argument here. Still a tax designed to address a behavior someone decided is undesirable just like smoking, fossil fuels and big gulps/ junk food. It's always good to be the decider.


But unlike those others there is another decider on the other side that can impose their own on their own people.

picking nits, but you've mentioned gas tax a couple times, tw and I don't think that is in the same category...at least not on the fed level

I see it as a means to pay for transportation costs moreso than to change behavior -- if it were more of a sin tax, it would have gone up more than once in the past 25 years to something far greater than the .18 or whatever it is now.
Hopefully, some of that tax also goes to the cost of regulating it...epa, weights and measures, etc

I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting that Trump may not give a flying fluck how China 'treats its workers'

"Donald trump doesn't care about Chinese people." - Kanye West

There are proponents of using that gas tax as a sin tax at the fed level that have become more and more vocal as of late, and using the coin for green stuff as well as discouraging gas use. Perhaps it has not taken hold at the fed level yet (due to the fossil fuel industry's power), but it certainly has happened at the state level (I'm looking at you Cali). To me it is still a sin tax it's just to the degree it is leveraged. It's all about the decider.

I get what you are saying though, and take your point.

I'm not sure what the Chinese import tax level has been historically or what it was used for. It just happens to be being leveraged right now.

"Need" as in need a place where we can have goods produced for cheap at the cost of the environment and the quality of life for millions? Why do we need that?

you have to open the link in #15 above....that shows the numbers of US corporations with manufacturing and production plants in China. It's a big deal...... they are there because they make a much better profit and their shareholders who are American voters/American consumers like it that way...we'll have to convince them all to come home or go elsewhere because they are helping China's economy (buying resources and "employing" Chinese workers while making a profit)...

then, if we Americans can band together with Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Viet Nam, the European Union, Australia, Scandinavia and boycott Chinese goods until they change their business practices, AND we convince all Americans to stop buying Chinese goods...we can squeeze China's markets and force them to the table...will we convince them to be more democratic and pay their people a living wage?

No, so our choice is to impose tariffs on China, making Americans who buy goods from China pay more for them, while putting many key American companies in a precarious position...what POTUS wants to do that? Trump

Why are they buying anything from us? American made products are crap...

Opel talk to a soybean farmer or pork producer among many other things.

We need their market. And they need ours. Who needs whose more is the game of chicken.

As I said we need to level the playing field. If trump is taking the long term and dies so bravo. If not, poo bag.

Opel... My company sells to China.
We also have American companies we buy from to sell to our partner company in China.

I barely care about the tariff on our purchased goods from China... That's just consumer level costs. I don't care if my brand new TV costs 25% more, I don't buy stuff enough for that to be an issue.

But the retaliatory tariffs from China are hitting US businesses.

They are an enormous and very fast growing market. Isolating our businesses from it hurts us more than it hurts them.

yes. China has a vast potential for consumerism, as do the African and some Asian countries that they influence and in which they have made deep inroads while we snoozed.

I agree with you which is why I avoid anything with moving parts from harbor freight. But it’s crept in to some once decent brands too.

That’s a whole other issue though. You certainly can pay double to get the quality you want. Import taxes will only make the cheaply made ones more expensive and the retaliatory taxes will have their own impact.

In your case competition should take care of the quality issue right? Isn’t that the answer to everything else? Folks will buy the quality level they want. These taxes won't make quality cheaper.

And tools are not the only Chinese import. What did you type your post on?

Again if these taxes are a long view to level the playing field beautiful. If trump can out long view the Chinese great. I don’t have faith in him but for some reason he’s earned it with many of you. At one time he was just not Hillary.

My guess is there will be a pretend victory of the Chinese backing down when they didn’t and the ensuing circle jerk regardless of the facts on the ground. That’s his skill, that’s the pattern. Some folks simply like his ties and steaks regardless of quality. (Both of which likely from China and available at harbor freight under a different brand name and price point).

Kidding aside I hope he actually accomplishes something here. I just am a doubting Thomas at this point. Hope I’m wrong. It doesn’t matter though he and his followers will declare victory either way.

They have perhaps the largest emerging market and to lose it would be a disaster. Agriculture alone is worth keeping their market open for us. Others will fill the void.

That’s not to say we shouldn’t do anything, it’s just to say discount their markets at your own peril. Be thoughtful not ham handed.

I’m also not sure the EU is willing to play ball on Trumps terms at the moment.

picking up on abrignac's observations about tools/machinery products:


Solid once great American tool and machinery corporations with manufacturing and production plants in China: Black and Decker, Briggs and Stratton, Caterpiller, Craftsman Tools, Cummins, DeWalt, Fisher Scientific, John Deere, Home Depot, Lowes, Stanley, Toro, True Value, Grainger...


are we making it easy for China to steal our trade secrets, patents, and production methods?

you mean over-turn the outcome of the Civil War?

Not making easy for them. All they have to do is determine what intellectual property they want to bring to marke, take it apart and analyze it components and build appropriate for, etc to make the parts, assemble the patented parts and ship it to harbor freight or some other willing distributers. For products that can’t be disassembled they can simply obtain a copy of the patent form the patent office. Same result.

I'll admit I started this thread as an attempt to get some steam behind a petition to have victors citizenship revoked while he's out of the country - possibly tried for treason - but it's gotten way off track...