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Last post 4 years ago by delta1. 96 replies replies.
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Senate Impeachment Trial thoughts...
Tittums Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2019
Posts: 524
Schiff: "Let's hear from Vindman"
....
Schiff: "We don't have that clip? Ok, let's not hear from Vindman, we've heard enough from Vindman"

For once I can agree with Adam Schiff. When you whine with the same talking points for 3 days straight and play the same clips 3 days straight you would think that's enough.

Anyone else remember when it was all about Russia? 24/7 Russia? I almost miss Russia at this point. Russia, if you're reading this forum, please drive the Democrats insane again.
USNGunner Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQJoar17jyo&feature=emb_logo&fbclid=IwAR38xN6NBJ0cCdY4JvhKZ_a6hqAwORhXoEAJBuRKnrVSM4choqCEC4qsQJY
Tittums Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2019
Posts: 524
USNGunner wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQJoar17jyo&feature=emb_logo&fbclid=IwAR38xN6NBJ0cCdY4JvhKZ_a6hqAwORhXoEAJBuRKnrVSM4choqCEC4qsQJY


This makes me so happy but before anyone else criticizes it (more than likely for being pro-trump since that's how it usually goes around here). The coyote's eyes could have bulged more.

But yes. More chugga chugga chugga TWEEEET TWEEET <3
fishinguitarman Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Everyone is smitten with this farce.

USNGunner Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
fishinguitarman wrote:
Everyone is smitten with this farce.


Naw. Some of us are simply amused. It's fun to go back and look at both sides saying exactly the same things the other side said when the shoe was on the other foot. Hypocrisy, it's a thang. horse
ZRX1200 Offline
#56 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
Adam Schiff has the worst resting crazy MF face I’ve ever seen.

And I’ve been to Pelican Bay (for work I cannot openly discuss).
Tittums Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2019
Posts: 524
ZRX1200 wrote:
Adam Schiff has the worst resting crazy MF face I’ve ever seen.

And I’ve been to Pelican Bay (for work I cannot openly discuss).


I am convinced Schiff is doing cocaine or meth. (or both).
Speyside Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Tittums, obviously you shouldn't be criticized for being a Trump supporter. You're being an A hole is so much worse. Yet I would criticize you for your stupidity, but that's just me.
Tittums Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2019
Posts: 524
Speyside wrote:
Tittums, obviously you shouldn't be criticized for being a Trump supporter. You're being an A hole is so much worse. Yet I would criticize you for your stupidity, but that's just me.


I don't think anyone is criticizing me for being a Trump supporter. I am indeed an A-hole about my support for him. Listening to A-holes all day is no excuse but I have been listening to the same A-holes talking about impeaching him before the election results were in.

Now these A-holes and all the A-holes not on tv are celebrating an impeachment on flimsy evidence from fruit of the poisonous tree. It almost makes you wish this was a legal proceeding because any decent lawyer could get this thrown out based on the source of the evidence and how it was obtained.
victor809 Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Tittums wrote:
I don't think anyone is criticizing me for being a Trump supporter. I am indeed an A-hole about my support for him. Listening to A-holes all day is no excuse but I have been listening to the same A-holes talking about impeaching him before the election results were in.

Now these A-holes and all the A-holes not on tv are celebrating an impeachment on flimsy evidence from fruit of the poisonous tree. It almost makes you wish this was a legal proceeding because any decent lawyer could get this thrown out based on the source of the evidence and how it was obtained.


Pretty sure everything you based your decision on there was incorrect....

So... uh... that's like... just your opinion man.....
Tittums Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2019
Posts: 524
victor809 wrote:
Pretty sure everything you based your decision on there was incorrect....

So... uh... that's like... just your opinion man.....


Do tell, what is incorrect? The questionable means by which the FISA warrants were obtained? The shoddy work product of a British spy interfering in our elections? The grounds Trump had to ask for Biden to be investigated? I've been told the whole Biden thing was debunked but "son of a b!tch" he admitted to doing it in his own words.
victor809 Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
None of what you said is even peripherally related to the impeachment. So.... not sure why you are focusing on it as justification for not having an impeached president....

And half of what you stated is incorrect (the last half) and the other half is... a hodgepodge.

So you're using mostly inaccurate and completely irrelevant arguments to defend something that is completely unrelated to them.
ZRX1200 Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
Not they’re not irrelevant because there was an established pattern of abuse of power directly towards an election by the very folks who’ve brought this in the first place.
frankj1 Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
the more info that emerges, the worse it looks...
it goes back to Poison Rudy and Parnas plotting to get the Ambassador out of the way and makes a lot of the testimony from Taylor et al more credible than it already appeared.
Abrignac Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
frankj1 wrote:
the more info that emerges, the worse it looks...
it goes back to Poison Rudy and Parnas plotting to get the Ambassador out of the way and makes a lot of the testimony from Taylor et al more credible than it already appeared.


What is wrong with Trump firing an ambassador? Ambassadors work at the pleasure of their employer. Since they are Executive branch employees, the President who is the Senior executive branch administrator he is well within his right to fire without cause any appointed employee. Last I checked an ambassador is an appointed employee of the Executive branch.

This but another red herring attempt to make it seem that Trump did something wrong, when in fact he has the authority to do exactly what he did.
frankj1 Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Abrignac wrote:
What is wrong with Trump firing an ambassador? Ambassadors work at the pleasure of their employer. Since they are Executive branch employees, the President who is the Senior executive branch administrator he is well within his right to fire without cause any appointed employee. Last I checked an ambassador is an appointed employee of the Executive branch.

This but another red herring attempt to make it seem that Trump did something wrong, when in fact he has the authority to do exactly what he did.

all he had to do was recall her, no reasons needed, totally agree.

So the firing itself isn't the real issue but the story emerging about why he was advised to do so is another dot that connects...that she would have been a "problem" in the way of the real acts being looked at as, to be kind, "questionable".

And to be very clear the red herrings are the fake stories tossed out about Biden and Ukraine having the server...which was conceived by PUTIN! How "red" do you need?
ZRX1200 Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
Yeah you can’t have it both ways. It’s his choice period, again separation of powers

Let’s not forget a tool used for FOREIGN surveillance was used on an American citizen illegally to get to the trump campaign. And a litany of other bullschtein crap that puts Nixon to shame......
Abrignac Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
frankj1 wrote:
all he had to do was recall her, no reasons needed, totally agree.

So the firing itself isn't the real issue but the story emerging about why he was advised to do so is another dot that connects...that she would have been a "problem" in the way of the real acts being looked at as, to be kind, "questionable".

And to be very clear the red herrings are the fake stories tossed out about Biden and Ukraine having the server...which was conceived by PUTIN! How "red" do you need?


Not sure how the *server* fits, but Biden issues are certainly not fake. One may argue the relevance, but the facts themselves are plain as day.
frankj1 Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
ZRX1200 wrote:
Yeah you can’t have it both ways. It’s his choice period, again separation of powers

Let’s not forget a tool used for FOREIGN surveillance was used on an American citizen illegally to get to the trump campaign. And a litany of other bullschtein crap that puts Nixon to shame......

don't need it both ways.
The firing is not illegal, nor does it need a reason.
But the actions behind the scenes that are related to it are tightly wrapped to the alleged crimes...but again, the firing was not illegal.

Not sure the specifics you are clinging to, but do we need an investigation into the investigation of the hows and whys of the Mueller Investigation et al yet again? Is Hunter Biden involved???
frankj1 Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
Abrignac wrote:
Not sure how the *server* fits, but Biden issues are certainly not fake. One may argue the relevance, but the facts themselves are plain as day.

98.2% of the world knows why Biden (who was representing their wishes and our very publicly known Official Foreign Policy)
warned about holding back aid.
Never was about leaving his kid alone.

In fact the threat to withhold, according to the world, was because the corrupt Ukrainian Investigator failed to really investigate corruption which included, Hunter's company! They had been "cleared" by him along with other favors he did for other corrupt oligarchs.

Biden's withholding would have potentially put his son's employer at risk, the opposite of what people repeating Trump's debunked nonsense fail to understand.

Where's Rudy?
Abrignac Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
I think I wasn’t clear in making my point. The waters a clearly muddied with no clear path. Are we as a nation comfortable of that being the standard we use to remove a sitting President going forward? This is a very slippery slope. As such I not only oppose the current impeachment of Trump, but felt the same in regards to the impeachment of Bill Clinton. Both have been highly partisan affairs. As a country we need consensus, both impeachments have contributed to the rapid and rabid polarization we must continue to live with. Absent that we all lose.

Think about this for a moment: we now have a veteran member of Congress on record saying that if others do not agree then the are complicit. To me that is treasonous in that he advocates trampling on the 2nd amendment rights of duly elected US Senators.

As far as the charge of obstruction of Congress, there is merely dispute, nothing else and certainly no high crime or misdemeanor. According to separation of powers clause the Judicial branch is the final arbitrator when there is a dispute between Legislative branches. As such, the Dems jumped the gun on that issue. When Trump refused to comply they should have asked the court to make a decision.
frankj1 Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
definitely should have gone the subpoena/court route. I agree.

All I heard as to why they did not was that it would have then been tied up until well after the coming election.
I say, so what? Either you know you have a case or you don't. As it looks now, the assertions likely would have been backed up by previously unreleased yet leaking documents/phone calls/etc. Maybe even positively corroborated by Bolton and another one or two direct witnesses.

When I saw that strategy (to not press for testimony and documents) on day one, and knowing it would take a nuke to get the Senate to convict, it affirmed my original opinion for censure, not impeachment, and let the Dems get a candidate who could win in November. They did none of those things.

All that aside, it's hard to ignore everything coming out. But they banked on the fact that the Senate not only could but would call for new evidence and testimony as history was strongly on their side for this happening.

Sometimes you lose when you gamble.
Abrignac Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
Great minds think alike.

I think this is going be like a boomerang for the DEMS. Their only hope in the next election are the undecided. Those are the ones the Dems should be courting. Unfortunately for them, the House managers come across as highly partisan and mostly bombastic. That is why I posted the Rasmussen poll. Trumps approval rating has seen an uptick during this charade.
fishinguitarman Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
No removal

Bloomberg will take votes away from the Dummycraps because he is slamming Trump at every turn

Bottom line: no socialists in the WH and


TRUMP 2020!!!!!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,423
Abrignac wrote:
Both have been highly partisan affairs.


Not really. With Clinton 31 Democrats in the House voted for impeachment.  On Article One, 45 senators voted to convict while 55 voted for acquittal. On Article Two, 50 senators voted to convict while 50 voted for acquittal.

Trump's final vote had no Republican support in the House and 2 Dems voting no.

This sham is purely partisan. Clinton had real statutes and laws broken. He paid fines and was disbarred from practicing Law. Trump had a separation of power between branches mind fart by the Democrats and a flimsy case that if tried in a legal court would've been tossed out on its merits.
Brewha Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,172
fishinguitarman wrote:
No removal

Bloomberg will take votes away from the Dummycraps because he is slamming Trump at every turn

Bottom line: no socialists in the WH and


TRUMP 2020!!!!!

So a communist instead of a socialist?
izonfire Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,647
Brewha wrote:
So a communist instead of a socialist?

A fascist
frankj1 Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
President Putin
teedubbya Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Ya know... even knowing he won’t get removed, and believing breaking the law to withhold funds in order to ask another country to announce an investigation in to your political opponent is sort of bad, having him removed from the ballot is a bridge too far and nothing I could ever support.

If anyone approves of using government funds to encourage investigations in to their political rivals recognizing if we bless this the other party will do this as well then they should get a chance to vote for that.

If anyone believes this is not what really happened on the surface I question if they should vote but it is America so it’s their right.

Either way removing him from the ballot is stupid. I think trying to remove him is stupid too. Let the next election decide and if we are stupid enough to re-elect we deserve him and deserve this sort of activity from both sides. We are saying it’s ok.
Dg west deptford Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
It's not only ok it's a duty to route out all the corrupt swampers. I don't want to live in an America that investigates Trump and ignores the Bidens, the corrupt CIA, FBI and other swamp critters.
Has everyone seen the Looney tunes clip with roadrunner (tweetus Maximus and Sciff T coyote) hilarious!
frankj1 Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,221
you misheard.
He said strain the swamp. Not drain the swamp.
He kept the big chunks.
Abrignac Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
teedubbya wrote:
Ya know... even knowing he won’t get removed, and believing breaking the law to withhold funds in order to ask another country to announce an investigation in to your political opponent is sort of bad, having him removed from the ballot is a bridge too far and nothing I could ever support.

If anyone approves of using government funds to encourage investigations in to their political rivals recognizing if we bless this the other party will do this as well then they should get a chance to vote for that.

If anyone believes this is not what really happened on the surface I question if they should vote but it is America so it’s their right.

Either way removing him from the ballot is stupid. I think trying to remove him is stupid too. Let the next election decide and if we are stupid enough to re-elect we deserve him and deserve this sort of activity from both sides. We are saying it’s ok.


I certainly hope you are not so naïve to think that he's the only POTUS to ever manipulate government finances to his advantage. His crime was picking disloyal subordinates. You know that, I know that and the whole world knows that. Never in my 54 years have I seen the number of leaks by high level staff under any other administration. Had that been the case in previous administrations, this wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

There is no smoking gun. No one has stated first hand that he withheld those funds until an investigation into the Bidens was launched.

For emphasis, let me state it again and again and again and again:

There has been ABSOLUTLY ZERO direct evidence presented to prove this wicked deed.

There has been ABSOLUTLY ZERO direct evidence presented to prove this wicked deed.

There has been ABSOLUTLY ZERO direct evidence presented to prove this wicked deed.

There has been ABSOLUTLY ZERO direct evidence presented to prove this wicked deed.


Notice I didn't say he was innocent. Just saying this isn't the first time the Office of President has been abused.

So once again I ask if this is were we want to be at this time? House Democrats created an Article of Impeachment out of something that should be decided by the Judicial branch. House Democrats ignored due process with it's impeachment inquiry. This in of itself should be considered a Constitutional crisis.

This has been a sham since day one. The DEM's know they can't prove a damn thing without some direct evidence. So they created a huge smokescreen consisting of what they wanted, but not what could be proven. They did this to harm Trump. Nothing more, nothing less. As Pelosi said when announcing the Articles about how they had been doing it for two and a half years. Yet, the alleged event didn't occur until we were well into those two and a half years.

Again I'm not saying I condone the alleged action. I'm just not blind to the fact that this has been going on since the days of George Washington. I'm also saying that we don't live in such a granular society and that we don't get the kernel without beating off the chaff.
teedubbya Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
If you believe this is normal or ok then that’s that.
fishinguitarman Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
You’re not normal
Krazeehorse Offline
#85 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
I'm not convinced Trump did anything anywhere near an impeachable offense. I'm nearly certain impeachments with be much more frequent than ever imaginable.
delta1 Offline
#86 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
what if it was 2015, and it was Obama who did all the things that Trump did, and it was Trump who Obama wanted investigated...
Burner02 Offline
#87 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,884
delta1 wrote:
what if it was 2015, and it was Obama who did all the things that Trump did, and it was Trump who Obama wanted investigated...



Best I recall Trump was investigated. And you can bet that Pres O knew it was happening and did nothing to put the brakes on.
Mrs. dpnewell Offline
#88 Posted:
Joined: 08-23-2014
Posts: 1,373
delta1 wrote:
what if it was 2015, and it was Obama who did all the things that Trump did, and it was Trump who Obama wanted investigated...


Yet Obama, the hypocritical media, and many on the left had no problem with the FBI investigating Trump's campaign in an attempt to influence the 2016 election.

David
delta1 Offline
#89 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
#87 and #88^^...ummmmm....not quite, but you're somewhere in the ballpark...


https://www.factcheck.org/2019/12/how-old-claims-compare-to-ig-report/
Abrignac Offline
#90 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
delta1 wrote:
#87 and #88^^...ummmmm....not quite, but you're somewhere in the ballpark...


https://www.factcheck.org/2019/12/how-old-claims-compare-to-ig-report/


Did you see that part about no bias? Not sure what to call Strock & Page’s behavior if it’s not biased. BTW, you do realize fact-check.org is a left leaning organization?
Abrignac Offline
#91 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
teedubbya wrote:
If you believe this is normal or ok then that’s that.


It’s about as normal as Obama/Biden’s FBI securing a FISA warrant based on phony information. Or leaking a story about a dossier compiled by a foreign agent then quoting that story as part of the FISA warrant application.

So yeah, I’d say it’s unfortunately pretty normal.
delta1 Offline
#92 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
yes...to describe the opening of the investigation or decision-making during it.

The involvement of Strzok and Page did not lead to the start/opening of the investigation nor contributed any decision making to it: they played small parts near the beginning of Mueller's investigation and they were immediately relieved of any further involvement immediately after their bias was revealed. I know you have a law enforcement background and are pretty savvy about law enforcement personnel in general...you would agree that most professional law enforcement personnel are conservatives, and most make every effort to not let their own personal political opinions surface during their work...

The biggest deal with the IG's report was the number of inconsistencies in the FBI's process for obtaining a FISA warrant. If they don't clean that up, then can we ever trust any federal law enforcement investigation to get and use warrants from the FISA courts, without consistent and perhaps invasive and crippling oversight/verification...and by whom?

I'm always skeptical about letting any law enforcement agencies, let alone the top federal agency, get permission to conduct secret surveillance of anyone, including Americans, but in the age of terrorism, in the aftermath of 9/11 that may be a necessary evil to prevent other attacks.


Factcheck has a loftier reputation, and was trusted by the right when they ruled Obama was wrong for accusing Romney of being a vulture capitalist....I guess it is perceived differently, depending on the decisions of "fact" they make...it is odd that we now have become a society where "facts" are always in dispute...
ZRX1200 Offline
#93 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,599
The FBI lies.

They do so all the time.

They’ve done so for longer than I’ve been alive.

Do you ❤️ Them when they lie to go after the most powerful man in American politics? I guess.........so where does that leave the average citizen Al?

You know there’s people who didn’t vote for him that aren’t his fans that are even more disgusted by behavior that actually sets precedent and has a longer lasting impact than a potty mouth and behavior that is no different than ANY RECENT POTUS.
Abrignac Offline
#94 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,273
delta1 wrote:
yes...to describe the opening of the investigation or decision-making during it.

The involvement of Strzok and Page did not lead to the start/opening of the investigation nor contributed any decision making to it: they played small parts near the beginning of Mueller's investigation and they were immediately relieved of any further involvement immediately after their bias was revealed. I know you have a law enforcement background and are pretty savvy about law enforcement personnel in general...you would agree that most professional law enforcement personnel are conservatives, and most make every effort to not let their own personal political opinions surface during their work...

The biggest deal with the IG's report was the number of inconsistencies in the FBI's process for obtaining a FISA warrant. If they don't clean that up, then can we ever trust any federal law enforcement investigation to get and use warrants from the FISA courts, without consistent and perhaps invasive and crippling oversight/verification...and by whom?

I'm always skeptical about letting any law enforcement agencies, let alone the top federal agency, get permission to conduct secret surveillance of anyone, including Americans, but in the age of terrorism, in the aftermath of 9/11 that may be a necessary evil to prevent other attacks.


Factcheck has a loftier reputation, and was trusted by the right when they ruled Obama was wrong for accusing Romney of being a vulture capitalist....I guess it is perceived differently, depending on the decisions of "fact" they make...it is odd that we now have become a society where "facts" are always in dispute...


I’ve met LEO’s across the political spectrum. More importantly though I’ve seen the fallout of what a few vindictive LEO’s did to rivals. My first employer was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. He died while incarcerated after serving 20 or so years in prison. The case was a setup from the start. I seen many other cases overthrown when secrets were spilled. On the other hand, I think you are being very generous in regards to Stozk and Page. Though the may now have helped initiate the investigation IIRC Strozk was one of the senior members of the team.


Wikipedia wrote:
Strzok rose to become a Deputy Assistant Director (one of several) of the Counterintelligence Division, the second-highest position in that division. He also led the FBI's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections.

The IG's investigation examined thousands of text messages exchanged using FBI-issued cell phones between Strzok and Lisa Page, with whom he was having an affair. She was also a trial attorney on Mueller's team.
delta1 Offline
#95 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
Strzok and Page's bias was discovered very early in the investigation, and they were removed immediately...

Mueller started his special investigation in May, 2017, brought Strzok on in June, and dropped him in July, 2017...the investigation concluded in March, 2019...
delta1 Offline
#96 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,784
ZRX1200 wrote:
The FBI lies.

They do so all the time.

They’ve done so for longer than I’ve been alive.

Do you ❤️ Them when they lie to go after the most powerful man in American politics? I guess.........so where does that leave the average citizen Al?

You know there’s people who didn’t vote for him that aren’t his fans that are even more disgusted by behavior that actually sets precedent and has a longer lasting impact than a potty mouth and behavior that is no different than ANY RECENT POTUS.



of course the FBI has a long history of questionable conduct, but mostly in protecting the status quo while going after minorities and people on the "margins" of our society...most cons were fine with that...

to be fair, in any contested investigation, there can be reviews, and the IG did one here...
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