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Last post 3 years ago by RobertHively. 39 replies replies.
Totalitarianism alive and well in our Govenment.
Speyside Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/21/doj-coronavirus-emergency-powers-140023

This MUST not be allowed to happen. Send messages to your congress people. Not only is this disgusting, it is unconstitutional, and un American. This is government overreach worthy of communists. It is communist. I'm losing a lot of cards lately. I think I add one. I'm joining the NRA. Seems like we do need a well armed militia.
CelticBomber Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
Speyside wrote:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/21/doj-coronavirus-emergency-powers-140023

This MUST not be allowed to happen. Send messages to your congress people. Not only is this disgusting, it is unconstitutional, and un American. This is government overreach worthy of communists. It is communist. I'm losing a lot of cards lately. I think I add one. I'm joining the NRA. Seems like we do need a well armed militia.


WTF! That should scare the hell out of everyone on both sides of the aisle! The Patriot Act was bad enough but this moves us straight into Stalinist territory! I am writing my congressmen and Senators immediately! This should be the lead story on every news network no matter their leaning.
RobertHively Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761

I'm not surprised at all. How about Rex 84 or the National Defense authorization Act that they renew every year, no matter which president is in office.

They do this in secret, while people that are stuck on this left vs right way of thinking are clueless.

Spey, check out Gun Owners of America. I think they are better at fighting for the 2A than the NRA.

Celtic, I mean you no disrespect but I had to laugh when you said that you we're going to write your congressman. They don't care. You think they don't know what's going on?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free"
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,477
^ this guy.

USNGunner Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
This is why the framers wrote the 2nd, and the only right more important was free speech.

Boogaloo. ThumpUp
fishinguitarman Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Robert... GOA is better than NRA at representing us???
Gene363 Online
#7 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,680
Great, now the government can be like the Boston police searching for the Boston bomber suspects.
delta1 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
might save lives...I read that there were hate groups chattering about weaponizing the corona virus, using bodily fluids from infected people in spray bottles to target cops and other govt. officials
USNGunner Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
fishinguitarman wrote:
Robert... GOA is better than NRA at representing us???


I belong to the 2nd Amendment foundation (SAF) and the NRA, I was a life member since the 80's so there's that.

The NRA has done some shady questionable crap lately and there is a lot of discord among the membership. Walled compounds for the president, supporting violations of the 2nd in a "let's make a deal" mindset. I would have quit if I weren't life.

SAF is a great outfit, they're fighting in the courts everyday and can use your support. They've won far more fights than the NRA has in the last 2 decades anyway.

GOA? I don't know about those guys. NAGR (National Associations for Gun Rights), same deal. I've been waiting to see how they stand up.
fishinguitarman Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,148
Good stuff Gunner n thanks. Anybody else?
CelticBomber Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
RobertHively wrote:


Celtic, I mean you no disrespect but I had to laugh when you said that you we're going to write your congressman. They don't care. You think they don't know what's going on?



I made you laugh and you made me shake my head in disappointment. Your bitter apathy is exactly the reason our government can do the thing they do.

The sad thing is a lot of people think the way you do. People don't vote, they don't talk to their elected representatives.

Of the People, By the People, For the People. That's what our government is supposed to be. But, the apathy of the people has let that idea die. They'd rather laugh and quote bad philosophy that only enforces that apathetic thinking. I wish I could laugh but, I can see beyond the surface. People laugh, get bitter, feel helpless, think there is no hope.... They spend their energy complaining to no one.

When you refuse to take on the responsibility of holding your government accountable and laugh at those who do... What are you? You're part of the problem is the answer.
RobertHively Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
CelticBomber wrote:
I made you laugh and you made me shake my head in disappointment. Your bitter apathy is exactly the reason our government can do the thing they do.

The sad thing is a lot of people think the way you do. People don't vote, they don't talk to their elected representatives.

Of the People, By the People, For the People. That's what our government is supposed to be. But, the apathy of the people has let that idea die. They'd rather laugh and quote bad philosophy that only enforces that apathetic thinking. I wish I could laugh but, I can see beyond the surface. People laugh, get bitter, feel helpless, think there is no hope.... They spend their energy complaining to no one.

When you refuse to take on the responsibility of holding your government accountable and laugh at those who do... What are you? You're part of the problem is the answer.


I think you misunderstand me. My point is dont wait for the government to help you. Learn and prepare.

Here is a quote that I keep on my wall in my man cave. I hope it is encourages you and everybody in this forum. I hope...

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to prepare for it."

-Patrick Henry

St. Johns Church, Richmond, Virginia
March 23, 1775
ZRX1200 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,477
GOA is better than the NRA but not as much reach.
CelticBomber Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
RobertHively wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. My point is dont wait for the government to help you. Learn and prepare.


I'm not the one who's misunderstanding. Learn and prepare... great idea. But, what does any of that have to do with your responsibility to hold your government accountable?

What you're advocating is the idea that we're powerless. So, let's all build bunkers and load up on canned goods and ammo. Putting all your energy into preparing for the worst and avoiding your responsibility of preventing the worst from happening... Not great thinking and a bad philosophy.

On a more personal note... Laughing at someone for doing what we all should be doing, including you. Not the brightest idea. It's lazy thinking at best.
RobertHively Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
fishinguitarman wrote:
Robert... GOA is better than NRA at representing us???


Based on what I've read I think so. Like USNGunner mentioned I've heard some bad things coming out of the NRA recently.

Ron Paul calls GOA the only no compromise gun lobby in Washington.

They are based out of Springfield, Virginia.
RobertHively Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
CelticBomber wrote:
I'm not the one who's misunderstanding. Learn and prepare... great idea. But, what does any of that have to do with your responsibility to hold your government accountable?

What you're advocating is the idea that we're powerless. So, let's all build bunkers and load up on canned goods and ammo. Putting all your energy into preparing for the worst and avoiding your responsibility of preventing the worst from happening... Not great thinking and a bad philosophy.

On a more personal note... Laughing at someone for doing what we all should be doing, including you. Not the brightest idea. It's lazy thinking at best.



Well I apologize for laughing.

I dont live in a bunker nor do I have one. Lol I travel quite a bit in fact. Just trying to live life my friend.

Good luck to you man.
RobertHively Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
CelticBomber wrote:
I'm not the one who's misunderstanding. Learn and prepare... great idea. But, what does any of that have to do with your responsibility to hold your government accountable?

What you're advocating is the idea that we're powerless. So, let's all build bunkers and load up on canned goods and ammo. Putting all your energy into preparing for the worst and avoiding your responsibility of preventing the worst from happening... Not great thinking and a bad philosophy.

On a more personal note... Laughing at someone for doing what we all should be doing, including you. Not the brightest idea. It's lazy thinking at best.



And you are right about trying diplomacy. And I am skeptical that they'll listen. But they damn sure listened in 2013 on the gun issue...



USNGunner Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
delta1 wrote:
might save lives...I read that there were hate groups chattering about weaponizing the corona virus, using bodily fluids from infected people in spray bottles to target cops and other govt. officials


So going full on police state is the answer? Screw that. Not talking
CelticBomber Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
RobertHively wrote:
And you are right about trying diplomacy. And I am skeptical that they'll listen. But they damn sure listened in 2013 on the gun issue...


So, now your saying people got involved and the government listened. But, you laughed at me for doing the same thing? I suggest you do a bit more thinking about what you believe in and where you stand before continuing this conversation.

StePHen
RobertHively Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
CelticBomber wrote:
So, now your saying people got involved and the government listened. But, you laughed at me for doing the same thing? I suggest you do a bit more thinking about what you believe in and where you stand before continuing this conversation.

StePHen


Im saying to do what you want. I thought about the 2013 attempted gun grab and the power of the people seemed to work in that case. I dont think that same advocacy will work in this instance. Because in this case the unconstitutional emergency powers have been enacted. At this very moment we dont have any rights.

Many argue we havent had any in years. In 2001 I was active and spoke out about the Patriot Act. It's still in place. Most Americans are more than willing to trade liberty for "security." I applaud you for being proactive though.

I did laugh. Lol! And I did mean good luck. We can dig this thread up after all of this is over and I will say, Stephen was right, and I'm glad he was right.
CelticBomber Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
delta1 wrote:
might save lives...I read that there were hate groups chattering about weaponizing the corona virus, using bodily fluids from infected people in spray bottles to target cops and other govt. officials



You cannot legislate all the evil out of our society. That kind of thinking leads directly to totalitarianism and creates the perfect soil for a cult of personality to grow in.

All you have to do is look around to see that it's already happening. We have an uninformed, uninvolved and angry citizenry, a crippled news media spewing rhetoric on both sides equally. A huge, tangled government bureaucracy that is largely held unaccountable.

Do you really believe more power for the government and less for the people is the answer. All in the name of the illusion of safety? That's Communism in a nutshell. How safe were the people under the Soviets? Or the Maoists?

Human nature being what it is.... bad people will do bad things. Whether it's against the law or with the power the laws we create give them.
MACS Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,599
While I agree with you in principle, allow me to shed some light onto the thought process and possibly assuage some of your fears.

I absolutely agree that this is over-reach and should not be allowed... in the vast majority of cases.

Allow me to explain. One is required to be brought to court for an arraignment before a judge within 72 business hours of one's arrest. If that does not happen, you MUST be released. Must. No exceptions.

The way we get around this now is to call the arresting agency and have them standing by for a re-arrest when we release the suspect in the lobby. Example: During this pandemic, someone commits murder, or rape, or child molestation. Courts are essentially closed right now. How the hell do you propose we get them to arraignment in 72 hours?

You want a murderer, rapist or child molester released back into the public? I don't. How long is this going to last?

I think if the wording of the bill is properly written and contains language for the most severe crimes and ONLY during the times where it is critically necessary and no longer than absolutely required, I might be okay with it.
RobertHively Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
MACS wrote:
While I agree with you in principle, allow me to shed some light onto the thought process and possibly assuage some of your fears.

I absolutely agree that this is over-reach and should not be allowed... in the vast majority of cases.

Allow me to explain. One is required to be brought to court for an arraignment before a judge within 72 business hours of one's arrest. If that does not happen, you MUST be released. Must. No exceptions.

The way we get around this now is to call the arresting agency and have them standing by for a re-arrest when we release the suspect in the lobby. Example: During this pandemic, someone commits murder, or rape, or child molestation. Courts are essentially closed right now. How the hell do you propose we get them to arraignment in 72 hours?

You want a murderer, rapist or child molester released back into the public? I don't. How long is this going to last?

I think if the wording of the bill is properly written and contains language for the most severe crimes and ONLY during the times where it is critically necessary and no longer than absolutely required, I might be okay with it.




That didn't assuage my skepticism in the slightest. Neither did Celtic Bomber.

We'll see what happens though. We'll see if those rights will be restored or if like everything else they will stay on the books indefinitely and ultimately be used for nefarious purposes.
RobertHively Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761

And damn, finally something I want to argue about.

Sure you guys don't want to talk about what Trump said or how crazy Pelosi Is?

Perhaps where is CROS? Maybe talk about Drafter is going to have for lunch?
MACS Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,599
Yeah, which is why, ultimately, I do agree it's over-reach and we should be saying "hell no" right now.

There are certainly other ways to get around such things. Our courts are closed, with the exception of the main court downtown and it's only open 10am-2pm and they're only seeing such cases. Everyone else? Released... and given a court date which the career criminals won't show up to.
Speyside Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
MACS, I get what you are saying and appreciate your knowledge shared. But this isn't the way. Having a career in law enforcement I doubt you will agree with the following but I hope you understand it. Yes, I would rather see a murderer or a pedophile or a rapist go free, than see my constitutional rights and freedoms taken away, even if that murderer then murders me. This doesn't mean I want them set free.
delta1 Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
In extreme cases, where public safety is endangered, we grant our government the authority to institute some drastic measures...like martial law, for short periods of time. Think civil disobedience and rioting, looting and burning.

This is similar...in many areas...we are in lock down mode and most businesses and govt offices, including criminal courts, are closed...there is a possibility that felons among us will try to take advantage of a hobbled criminal justice system and a public whose guard is down and closed businesses are vulnerable...

If the courts are closed or operating at partial capacity due to open hour limits caused by the pandemic and the cops apprehend a serial murderer, or any other person accused of a violent felony we should suspend habeas corpus and the 72 hour rule: we shouldn't follow protocols that may result in that person's release.

The suspension of these laws that protect us against over-zealous law enforcement authorities must be worded in such a way as to link it to the current existing crisis, so that it expires at a prescribed time. If not, then we get Congress to change it.

We have a robust history of US Supreme Court cases that resulted in laws to limit over-zealous law enforcement's efforts to police Americans, so I understand the resistance....but it IS that history that leads me to believe we, the people, will not allow an over-reach...
clintCigar Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 05-14-2019
Posts: 4,682
This is Commie 13 approved
CelticBomber Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 05-03-2012
Posts: 6,786
delta1 wrote:
In extreme cases, where public safety is endangered, we grant our government the authority to institute some drastic measures...like martial law, for short periods of time. Think civil disobedience and rioting, looting and burning.

This is similar...in many areas...we are in lock down mode and most businesses and govt offices, including criminal courts, are closed...there is a possibility that felons among us will try to take advantage of a hobbled criminal justice system and a public whose guard is down and closed businesses are vulnerable...

If the courts are closed or operating at partial capacity due to open hour limits caused by the pandemic and the cops apprehend a serial murderer, or any other person accused of a violent felony we should suspend habeas corpus and the 72 hour rule: we shouldn't follow protocols that may result in that person's release.

The suspension of these laws that protect us against over-zealous law enforcement authorities must be worded in such a way as to link it to the current existing crisis, so that it expires at a prescribed time. If not, then we get Congress to change it.

We have a robust history of US Supreme Court cases that resulted in laws to limit over-zealous law enforcement's efforts to police Americans, so I understand the resistance....but it IS that history that leads me to believe we, the people, will not allow an over-reach...



I'm not an Idealist. I understand there are real world implications that must be addressed. But, when granting these extraordinary powers they should be extremely narrow and have an expiration built in. How many governments do you know of that willing give up authority once they have it. A temporary measure gets put into place for some emergency and once the emergency is over some committee holds a "vote" and suddenly an extension is granted. A few extensions later, the precedent is set and the temporary measure's put in place due to an emergency are now policy.

Trey Gowdy made an excellent argument when questioning the DHS about terror and no fly lists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNDcd1Fe5lg

This is exactly to my point.
Speyside Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Why do we still have the Patriot act? If this is slipped into place it won't go away.
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Homeland Insecurity?
izonfire Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
delta1 wrote:
In extreme cases, where public safety is endangered, we grant our government the authority to institute some drastic measures...like martial law, for short periods of time. Think civil disobedience and rioting, looting and burning.

"Let Them Loot"
That's what I heard...
frankj1 Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
just want to point out (sorry b.hive) that people always go to Commies comparisons (left side) when talking about this.
But President Cheney and this guy are both right of center.

Obviously this isn't a threat from the left. We really should drop the comps to the left in the two recent instances when we are concerned with whom to fend off from crushing our rights and freedom. Calling them Commies will distract us from fearing the right leaning power grab, which should be just as scary ( or more so based on the last quarter century).

So what do we call the last two massive power grabs? Anyone still want to go with Cheney and Trump as Commies? Of course not. But people hate far right names like Nazism. Any more palatable yet accurate terms for the right side version of totalitarianism? Are we good with fascism?

Half-kidding aside, how does communism take the hit when it's the right side home team acting as the abusers?

Answer:
It's a reminder that neither side owns morality or knows all the answers. The major sides have to not allow them to divide (and conquer) us.
Fear the benevolent dictator, even if you voted for him/her.
Whistlebritches Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,127
MACS wrote:
While I agree with you in principle, allow me to shed some light onto the thought process and possibly assuage some of your fears.

I absolutely agree that this is over-reach and should not be allowed... in the vast majority of cases.

Allow me to explain. One is required to be brought to court for an arraignment before a judge within 72 business hours of one's arrest. If that does not happen, you MUST be released. Must. No exceptions.

The way we get around this now is to call the arresting agency and have them standing by for a re-arrest when we release the suspect in the lobby. Example: During this pandemic, someone commits murder, or rape, or child molestation. Courts are essentially closed right now. How the hell do you propose we get them to arraignment in 72 hours?

You want a murderer, rapist or child molester released back into the public? I don't. How long is this going to last?

I think if the wording of the bill is properly written and contains language for the most severe crimes and ONLY during the times where it is critically necessary and no longer than absolutely required, I might be okay with it.



My thoughts exactly........Under the right circumstances this is a necessary evil.I'm onboard,otherwise evil reigns supreme.
USNGunner Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
CelticBomber wrote:
Trey Gowdy made an excellent argument when questioning the DHS about terror and no fly lists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNDcd1Fe5lg

This is exactly to my point.


Huzzah! Exactly. Exactly right.
USNGunner Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 05-17-2019
Posts: 4,402
frankj1 wrote:
It's a reminder that neither side owns morality or knows all the answers. The major sides have to not allow them to divide (and conquer) us.
Fear the benevolent dictator, even if you voted for him/her.


Yep. Well said.
delta1 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,754
fear more the not so benevolent dictator...
frankj1 Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
delta1 wrote:
fear more the not so benevolent dictator...

starts with stomping out the perceived threat for the "greater good".
RobertHively Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
CelticBomber wrote:
I'm not an Idealist. I understand there are real world implications that must be addressed. But, when granting these extraordinary powers they should be extremely narrow and have an expiration built in. How many governments do you know of that willing give up authority once they have it. A temporary measure gets put into place for some emergency and once the emergency is over some committee holds a "vote" and suddenly an extension is granted. A few extensions later, the precedent is set and the temporary measure's put in place due to an emergency are now policy.

Trey Gowdy made an excellent argument when questioning the DHS about terror and no fly lists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNDcd1Fe5lg

This is exactly to my point.


Although I'm still skeptical about our Federal reps willingness to reign in another portion (DOJ) of the same out of control government, I still think you were right to have said to call them and voice your opposition.

I havent yet, but I have been more active locally. Like you said once the government takes the authority they never willingly give it back to the people. And like O'Neil said "all politics is local".

Patrick Henry quote still applies though. Of course. Herfing


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