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Last post 3 years ago by Smooth light. 66 replies replies.
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You want to prove God exists?
bgz Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
A college kid gave you a starting point... but you got your work cut out for you....

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/aba4bc

In a nutshell, the paper claims that in the presence of closed time loops, the universe will not allow you to commit paradoxes and is shown with clever set operations.

I gotta call bs on it though... the student seems to be ignoring the possibilities that get introduced from openening the closed time loop in the first place...

The more I skimmed the paper (didn't come close to fine tooth combing it), the more it started looking like an emergent hypothesis of quantum mechanics.

Anyway... it's going to be a hard sell... personally, I don't think the universe gaf... if you can go back and time and kill your grandfather, I think the universe would simply shrug and move on... though I think your initial timeline would also move on...
Brewha Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Wait - I thought part of the qualification for being God was that your existence could not be proven....
tonygraz Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
bgz Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Brewha wrote:
Wait - I thought part of the qualification for being God was that your existence could not be proven....


Well... some people are motivated, maybe it might make some of them interested in math...

I mean, I have no desire to try to prove the existence of God because I don't want to waste time chasing something that I think has a high probability of being false.
ZRX1200 Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,477
It’s the Lord’s day so I’ll pray on it.
Dg west deptford Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Bgz we already proved God.
The proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn’t prove anything!

G'mar chatima tova
Happy Yom Kippur

I read Amos 4 where the Lord, in an attempt to awaken His people, sends a succession of increasing judgements. With each sequential chastening strike of His rod and the people’s refusal to humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways the Lord God with great lamenting of heart says, “yet have you not returned to me”.
But even this wholly undeserved mercy of the inexplicable forbearance of God finally comes to an end for after being ignored again and again it’s recorded this fearsome proclamation...
“Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.”

You don't need proof you need to turn away from sin and toward God.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Shalom brother's
izonfire Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
Well, I guess that kinda wraps things up...
bgz Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Ya, no kidding... you would think he would be thanking me, sheesh.
bgz Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Seriously though, interesting concept... I found it worthy of a skim.
Brewha Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
I am learning to enjoy the read of dg’s circular logic packaged with an self righteous vibe. Reminds me of when I was in church school and learned that “because I said so” was considered a legitimate answer - especially where god is concerned. To his credit, he did not end it with “Jesus loves you”. Thank god for that.

Brewha Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
As far as temporal mechanics go, seems there are lots of crack pot ideas.

I find it hard to think of a book or movie that treated time travel is a scientific way. But I guess that is why they call it fiction.
Smooth light Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
God is in everything, from your eyes to what you are looking at. He created it all. Stop trying to tell the creator how it should be, with your pea brain 🧠 's .

God is good all the time, all the time God is good.

We're just made of dirt. If you can do better get your own dirt first,he owns this dirt.

😯
bgz Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Logically it sounds like an infinite loop with a memory leak.
Brewha Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
This is why I hold that believing IS seeing....
Dg west deptford Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
So when an illusionist pulls a nickel from behind your ear you believe it was there.
You trust your eyes even though an 8 year old child could fool you with a basic card trick?
Nope. Seeing isn't believing, especially when you're blind.
Smooth light Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
But do you have to see to believe, you have a brain 🧠 can you see it, we have faith that you are using it,without seeing it.🦧

We have time limited perspective,he is outside of time.⏳

Fruit loops anybody, I'm getting hungry! 🥣
Whistlebritches Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 04-23-2006
Posts: 22,127
I'm gonna pray for you Godless heathens........even you Meathead
bgz Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Dg west deptford wrote:
So when an illusionist pulls a nickel from behind your ear you believe it was there.
You trust your eyes even though an 8 year old child could fool you with a basic card trick?
Nope. Seeing isn't believing, especially when you're blind.


That's not an argument for or against anything.

I'm not even sure wtf you're talking about really... what's this have to do with the proposed closed time loop system?

As presented, it seems to make the claim that no matter what you do, the universe will course correct to a desired set of events so to speak.

I would think you would have to account for the new energy being placed into a timeframe where it previously wasn't... in qm you be changing the wave function of the system with the addition of new energy.
RobertHively Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,761
Bunch of progressives up in here. Lol!
tonygraz Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
What church did trump go to today ? What is his religious affiliation ? I think Archie Bunker was a devout christian, but he had to ask Edith what church it was that they went to.
bgz Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Just to add to my thoughts on the subject... once the wave function changes at the point in the past, the initial conditions of the point in the future would no longer be a valid possibility because the energy in the new system is greater than that of the initial system.
Dg west deptford Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Bgz, I was replying to brewha (the post directly above mine) so it had nothing whatsoever to do with your op.
My apologies for assuming you'd understand the flow of this thread. I should've quoted brewha so as to make it less confusing for you. (I have to go to desktop mode to do that)
Pita.

I have no opinion on the link, didn't open it. However I do appreciate your op and what appears to be an obvious search for faith and meaning to your life and answers for what comes after this one.
✌️
bgz Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Thanks Dg, just so you know... I can be a bit of a d*ck, and I don't really need a reason to throw a jab at you.

I think I did reason through what was off about the claim for me, and you're right... it kind of was a test of my faith so to speak.

From my thoughts, I came to the conclusion in the case presented, energy would be conserved in the system as a whole in a multiverse. I also concluded that a time loop would be impossible because the configuration of the initial system would be an invalid permutation because the energy in the altered system would not be equal to the energy of the initial system.
frankj1 Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Dg west deptford wrote:
Bgz we already proved God.
The proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn’t prove anything!

G'mar chatima tova
Happy Yom Kippur


Shalom brother's

I appreciate the sentiment, and have no doubt of your sincerity, but it's my belief that even though we wish others well for the coming year, it doesn't really fit to say Happy Yom Kippur. Happy New year (shana tova) for sure.
It just doesn't seem to go with the most solemn day of the year.

But thank you, Shalom, and may you enjoy a happy, healthy, and prosperous new year.
Dg west deptford Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Amen! It is a time for brokenness, humility and repentance
Thank you Frank!!!
gummy jones Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
There are a lot of better arguments than what you linked if anyone is really interested

Overall you can't prove God or not God and most experts agree on that

It's all about where one thinks the evidence best leads
bgz Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
An article popped up with that in my feed. My wife also told me the article popped up in her feed... so I went and took a peek at it (and the paper).

Then posted my 2 cents on it.
izonfire Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
frankj1 wrote:
I appreciate the sentiment, .....blah, bippety blah..., it doesn't really fit to say Happy Yom Kippur. Happy New year (shana tova) for sure.
It just doesn't seem to go with the most solemn day of the year.
.......

Always the buzzkill Frankie...
bgz Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
gummy jones wrote:
There are a lot of better arguments than what you linked if anyone is really interested

Overall you can't prove God or not God and most experts agree on that

It's all about where one thinks the evidence best leads


You got evidence that's better than a mathematical special case that suggests fate is a real thing?

Like I said, I don't buy it for the reasons I've given, but for someone who would be interested in having bullet points to throw out there... there it is.
ZRX1200 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,477
The problem I always run into with this is something coming from nothing. I think you can have some element of intelligent design and natural evolution. The universe is far too vast and complex for myself to say a theory holds more water than their being a God. Or for that matter God being the only answer.

The dumbest thing in my opinion is not challenging your beliefs or thoughts. Something our “higher learning” institutions used to do.
frankj1 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
izonfire wrote:
Always the buzzkill Frankie...

in the middle of a stressful run...
tonygraz Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
Good points, Z. I often think that humanity may be lacking in some kind of intelligence to understand something coming from nothing or something going on infinitely.
HockeyDad Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,069
Godless Democrats versus Godly Democrats.

Time to get popcorn and watch then eat their own.
frankj1 Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
HockeyDad wrote:
Godless Democrats versus Godly Democrats.

Time to get popcorn and watch then eat their own.

not until sundown tomorrow...
izonfire Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
frankj1 wrote:
in the middle of a stressful run...

Toasting to you giving yourself a break Papa -
Prost and Mazel Tov...
bgz Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
tonygraz wrote:
Good points, Z. I often think that humanity may be lacking in some kind of intelligence to understand something coming from nothing or something going on infinitely.


I have a hard time envisioning something from nothing in the general case... but infinities don't really bother me.
Plowboy221 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2013
Posts: 5,133
91 Divoc= Covid 19

Part of Palms 91

He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;(G)
his faithfulness will be your shield(H) and rampart.
You will not fear(I) the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.(J
izonfire Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 12-09-2013
Posts: 8,642
bgz wrote:
I have a hard time envisioning something from nothing in the general case... but infinities don't really bother me.

Speak for yourself.
Infinities are fine if you like what you’re experiencing.

If not??? You’re fucqued.
The pain is endless...
Smooth light Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
You walk on your path of gilded splinters, I will be dancing in the field of grace. GOD's love will give you peace,if you are willing to humble your self. ( Palms 16:11)
GOD gave us a choice, devil's advocate for HELL or an ambassador of the kingdom.
Do you want to drive or enjoy the view while he is driving.

Love you all ❤️.
Buckwheat Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
True belief shouldn't require proof. fog
bgz Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Accidentally pasted the actual paper link... meant to post the original article... this isn't it, but it's talking about the same thing.

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-physicist-has-come-up-with-the-maths-to-make-time-travel-plausible
Speyside Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
The paper link was interesting, the article not so much.
Brewha Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
So when an illusionist pulls a nickel from behind your ear you believe it was there.
You trust your eyes even though an 8 year old child could fool you with a basic card trick?
Nope. Seeing isn't believing, especially when you're blind.

No, no, no. Seems everyone gets this wrong.

Seeing is not believing - you might believe, you might not.

I said Believing is seeing.
If you believing something you will look until you see it. But you will see it and evidence of it. Be it there or not.
Because you believe.

You above many should know this....
Brewha Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
ZRX1200 wrote:
The problem I always run into with this is something coming from nothing. I think you can have some element of intelligent design and natural evolution. The universe is far too vast and complex for myself to say a theory holds more water than their being a God. Or for that matter God being the only answer.

The dumbest thing in my opinion is not challenging your beliefs or thoughts. Something our “higher learning” institutions used to do.

Z, I don't think any real theory has something coming from nothing. It is about matter and energy being the same thing and changing states.

Or - think of water.
On a hot day it vanishes, turns to nothing.
And on a cold glass, water forms from nowhere.
tonygraz Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,175
Too simple and explainable, Brewski. Z knows all about water - he studied Down By The River.
Smooth light Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
Just because you can't create does not limit his ability to. Unreasonable to you logical reason.

Matter and energy is in time ; limited. GOD is outside of time and in it (past, present, future).
You just have a small view of him.

🦧
Speyside Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
No matter how the universe was created where did the energy come from? The discussion about the existence of a greater energy is hilarious in that it is non provable that it exists or doesn't exist. In either case the odds are approximately 0 on the formation of the earth. The best answer I can give you is quantum gravity following Einstein's belief.
HockeyDad Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,069
I heard Axl created that energy.
Speyside Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Wow!!!! You think Axl is God. That's still Paul man.
Smooth light Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-26-2020
Posts: 3,598
You can't see the wind blow, only the result.
The evidence is all around us but you refuse to acknowledge it.
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