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Last post 2 years ago by Sunoverbeach. 85 replies replies.
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This is why I'm not a fan of the RNC right now...
Dg west deptford Offline
#51 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Smoking kit from the government

Your ok with that?

Specifically to the "under served" ?!

Tell me more about how you want your tax dollars to go to this

I mean weather or not a Crack pipe is included.

Seriously!!! Wake up, wokies!
HockeyDad Offline
#52 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,065
Dg west deptford wrote:
Smoking kit from the government

Your ok with that?

Specifically to the "under served" ?!

Tell me more about how you want your tax dollars to go to this

I mean weather or not a Crack pipe is included.

Seriously!!! Wake up, wokies!



We’ve been doing this for years in California. Works like a charm. I can’t believe we didn’t come up with the crack pipes idea. We’re still stuck on needles.
tailgater Offline
#53 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Nothing makes a neighborhood brighter than a good ol'fashioned needle exchange.

bgz Offline
#54 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Do they call it the Pelosi Pipe Program?
Speyside2 Offline
#55 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-012-1173-3

This is a fascinating article about addiction. It explains a highly controversial topic, that genetics is the dominant factor in addiction. Basically specific gene sequences are the reason for 70% recidivism. So if you have a certain genetic sequence with a mutation if you take the specific drug that fits that mutation and sequence you are hooked for life and have little to no chance of recovery. I do have a decent working background is genetics, but this is a very unique field of study. I would say I read this at least 20 times and had to go through a lot of ascintilary information to even have a grossly rudimentary understanding of it's meaning.

If this is true, which I think it could be, I do not consider it woke to do what can be done to improve these human beings lives. Though I will add I have no working knowledge in this regard, and the read was very difficult for me. I posted the link basically so you could consider the concept.
Sunoverbeach Online
#56 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,586
My mother had morning sickness after I was born.
- RD
tailgater Offline
#57 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Speyside2 wrote:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-012-1173-3

This is a fascinating article about addiction. It explains a highly controversial topic, that genetics is the dominant factor in addiction. Basically specific gene sequences are the reason for 70% recidivism. So if you have a certain genetic sequence with a mutation if you take the specific drug that fits that mutation and sequence you are hooked for life and have little to no chance of recovery. I do have a decent working background is genetics, but this is a very unique field of study. I would say I read this at least 20 times and had to go through a lot of ascintilary information to even have a grossly rudimentary understanding of it's meaning.

If this is true, which I think it could be, I do not consider it woke to do what can be done to improve these human beings lives. Though I will add I have no working knowledge in this regard, and the read was very difficult for me. I posted the link basically so you could consider the concept.


I think nearly everyone has at one time or another been impacted by addiction.
That's not the point. There is a difference between helping and enabling.
frankj1 Offline
#58 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
I think nearly everyone has at one time or another been impacted by addiction.
That's not the point. There is a difference between helping and enabling.

I don't disagree, but would add there is also a difference between enabling and keeping one alive long enough to have hope that something will help.

But, if all these safe places aren't tied to real treatment, then they are only enabling and delaying the inevitable.
It's a fine line.

I wish we'd pour money into research and stuff instead of any number of things. Genetic predisposition probably plays a part in addictive disorders, not all are drugs or alcohol, but from the many (sadly) addicted people I have known or known about, often life events trigger it as well. Not all are predisposed to having the inner strength or whatever the factor is that keeps most on the straight path. And even some of the strongest can have their wills crushed.

Spey, I loved a post from you not long ago...you believed every illness has a cure...some haven't been discovered yet (I added that last part).
tailgater Offline
#59 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
I don't disagree, but would add there is also a difference between enabling and keeping one alive long enough to have hope that something will help.

But, if all these safe places aren't tied to real treatment, then they are only enabling and delaying the inevitable.
It's a fine line.
.


That's the thing.
Down here on the Cape they put a needle exchange near downtown Hyannis.
Then it was discovered that it wasn't even an "exchange".
The addicts didn't need to bring in their used needles to get new ones. This was the primary premise that the center used to convince the public to fund it.
At the time, my wife was teaching at a nearby preschool and the teachers had to do a sweep of the playground field every day before they let kids out. Every week they found discarded needles. Every. Week. In a playground for 4 year old kids.
I doubt there just happened to be a family of diabetics living next door.

We can't wait for the addict to ask for help. We need to encourage it. Unfettered access to fresh needles does not accomplish this.
We don't place EBT-capable cigarette machines within convenient access to lung cancer patients.
We don't mail out shot glasses to alcoholics.
Up until recently, I'd say we don't provide crack pipes to those addicted.
Speyside2 Offline
#60 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
To everyone here I disagree 100% on giving up on addicts. Addicts are going to get their fix no matter what. This is not enabling. Simply put, clean needles mean less disease. Though crack pipes are not to be included in the kit they should be. Glass crack pipes with screens stop the toxicity of home made pipes. There is nothing woke about wanting to extend the life of someone who has a terminal illness. It is just that simple. As an aside, you lower the total medical cost by preventing toxicity and disease. I am not willing to give up on anyone and am for extending their lives as long as possible in hopes of finding a cure to their disease. If you are fine with letting them die that is on you.
bgz Offline
#61 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Affluency and death rates can be modeled accurately with differential equations.

In otherwords... theres going to be a small percentage of wealthy people, a sh*t load of poor people, and people are going to die all the time.

That's regardless of what you do... all you're doing is moving the percentages around a bit of the demographics.
RMAN4443 Offline
#62 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Speyside2 wrote:
To everyone here I disagree 100% on giving up on addicts. Addicts are going to get their fix no matter what. This is not enabling. Simply put, clean needles mean less disease. Though crack pipes are not to be included in the kit they should be. Glass crack pipes with screens stop the toxicity of home made pipes. There is nothing woke about wanting to extend the life of someone who has a terminal illness. It is just that simple. As an aside, you lower the total medical cost by preventing toxicity and disease. I am not willing to give up on anyone and am for extending their lives as long as possible in hopes of finding a cure to their disease. If you are fine with letting them die that is on you.

what happens regarding the TOXICITY of the actual CRACK, or the FENTANYL laced CRACK???
Speyside2 Offline
#63 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Very fair points. I see human life as irreplaceable. I live with that in mind. So my reasoning is not empirical, other than keeping addicts healthy does lower the cost of Healthcare. My moral/ethical code is rather rigid, perhaps singular though I doubt that. It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal. As can be seen in my posts here, depending on what is being discussed I have no conservative or liberal consistency.
RMAN4443 Offline
#64 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
tailgater wrote:
That's the thing.
Down here on the Cape they put a needle exchange near downtown Hyannis.
Then it was discovered that it wasn't even an "exchange".
The addicts didn't need to bring in their used needles to get new ones. This was the primary premise that the center used to convince the public to fund it.
At the time, my wife was teaching at a nearby preschool and the teachers had to do a sweep of the playground field every day before they let kids out. Every week they found discarded needles. Every. Week. In a playground for 4 year old kids.
I doubt there just happened to be a family of diabetics living next door.

We can't wait for the addict to ask for help. We need to encourage it. Unfettered access to fresh needles does not accomplish this.
We don't place EBT-capable cigarette machines within convenient access to lung cancer patients.
We don't mail out shot glasses to alcoholics.
Up until recently, I'd say we don't provide crack pipes to those addicted.

what about sex addicts? Are they going to send out "SAFE SEX" kits, with a bottle of hand lotion and a blow-up doll???
asking for a friend...Anxious
Speyside2 Offline
#65 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Don't be dense, there is no change as they are already smoking/taking it. That is a nonstarter. My discussion is where if you want to do everything possible to save their lives, or not. Plus ignoring the cost savings by keeping them as healthy as possible is illogical.

No one here is even discussing the most controversial part of the total package, Narco. What are the moral and ethical implications of saving an addict who is overdosing? My decision is save them, based on much I said above. Though I defiantly see 2 logical sides to that debate. Another debate that would have 2 definite logical sides is what is the value of a single human life? To me it is priceless.
Dg west deptford Offline
#66 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Speyside2 wrote:
Don't be dense, there is no change as they are already smoking/taking it. That is a nonstarter. My discussion is where if you want to do everything possible to save their lives, or not. Plus ignoring the cost savings by keeping them as healthy as possible is illogical.

No one here is even discussing the most controversial part of the total package, Narco. What are the moral and ethical implications of saving an addict who is overdosing? My decision is save them, based on much I said above. Though I defiantly see 2 logical sides to that debate. Another debate that would have 2 definite logical sides is what is the value of a single human life? To me it is priceless.


"Value of life"?

Well with inflation the cost of humans should be up.
but with Bidens help the cost of drugs & humans is racing to the bottom!

Enslave more souls (especially the under-served ones)by normalizing & enabling drug use & human trafficking Good work Dems! at least Trump isn't offending your sensibilities.

"Making rock bottom more comfortable" should be the motto not "build back better." - truth in advertising!

"Equitable treatment of slaves" is also a great motto for anyone who supports this Brandon admin. move.
bgz Offline
#67 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
"Making rock bottom better"...

It's not so bad down here.

Lmfao, I'm stealing that... for what, I'm not sure yet.
Brewha Offline
#68 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,147
Dg west deptford wrote:
"Value of life"?

Well with inflation the cost of humans should be up.
but with Bidens help the cost of drugs & humans is racing to the bottom!

Enslave more souls (especially the under-served ones)by normalizing & enabling drug use & human trafficking Good work Dems! at least Trump isn't offending your sensibilities.

"Making rock bottom more comfortable" should be the motto not "build back better." - truth in advertising!

"Equitable treatment of slaves" is also a great motto for anyone who supports this Brandon admin. move.

One of the fruits of capitalism is the ongoing concentration of wealth. Independent of political party.

BTW - Trump’s changes to the tax code did a lot to help accelerate the concentration of wealth.

Biden on the other hand is backing unions - not that that is really answer to the problem.





“Let’s Go Darwin!”
RMAN4443 Offline
#69 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
Speyside2 wrote:
Don't be dense, there is no change as they are already smoking/taking it. That is a nonstarter. My discussion is where if you want to do everything possible to save their lives, or not. Plus ignoring the cost savings by keeping them as healthy as possible is illogical.

No one here is even discussing the most controversial part of the total package, Narco. What are the moral and ethical implications of saving an addict who is overdosing? My decision is save them, based on much I said above. Though I defiantly see 2 logical sides to that debate. Another debate that would have 2 definite logical sides is what is the value of a single human life? To me it is priceless.

what about people being denied medical treatment because they didn't take the jab??? Isn't there any "value" to their life?
Speyside2 Offline
#70 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
This is where I am coming from and I intend no disrespect for anyone else, many many here are far more biblically knowledgeable than I.

Matthew 25:31-45
King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

That is my basis.
Dg west deptford Offline
#71 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
I'd hate to have the millstone around my neck he spoke of for offending the least of his little ones by giving the Lord of Glory a government subsidized Crack pipe needle or anything other than narcan and an accountability partner of prayer and fasting.
Speyside2 Offline
#72 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Again stop being dense. There are a minimal number of organs available. You or I have no control over medical ethics. If someone chooses to be rated less survivable they will be bypassed for someone deemed more survivable.

Guess what everything in that package has an essentially infinite number. At lease put up a solid argument that has logic and nuance.

The anti vaxxers lives are priceless also. That has no relationship to what we are talking about based on what I have stated above.

Finally addicts are also excluded from the transplant list. You simply make no sense with your points.
Speyside2 Offline
#73 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Then we interpret 36 and 42 far differently. For me sick is sick. Would you care to explain to me when sick isn't sick?
RMAN4443 Offline
#74 Posted:
Joined: 09-29-2016
Posts: 7,683
I wasn't talking about transplants...medical care in general


For smokers who personally choose to affect their health negatively, should they be denied medical care? Should those choosing to drink and drive and cause an accident be denied medical care for their personal choice?

In this context, and considering medical care for the unvaccinated, treatment should be based on the urgency of the need and not the circumstances leading up to it.

If considered unethical to not vaccinate, what is to be considered of the smokers and drunk drivers who perform actions that endanger themselves and others?

As The Atlantic puts it, “It is a fundamental principle of modern medicine that “everyone has an equal claim to relief from suffering, no matter what they’ve done or haven’t done. When you try to make moral distinctions, you end up holding people’s circumstances beyond their control.”

excerpt above from...https://www.healthcanal.com/news/ideas-deny-medical-care-unvaccinated
Dg west deptford Offline
#75 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
Sick is giving a needle to a junkie, a Crack pipe to a slave in bandage.

It is an act of enslavement with no pity for the slave!

I was encouraged by your Matthew quote so I'll share Matthew 18:6-

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
bgz Offline
#76 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
So your solution is to shoot em?

(Bullet is cheaper than a millstone)
Dg west deptford Offline
#77 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
My personal "solution", as you call it. Is death on a cross
& rising to new life

More than willing to be a prayer partner for you if you wanna get clean.

Been a while since I've personally saw to the care of a recovering addict, but thanks be to Mercy those I've been blessed to serve are clean to this day!
bgz Offline
#78 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Get clean of what exactly? The filth I wade through on the cbid forums every day...

Nah, I'm good, I like rolling around in the mud.

I think I know what you believe DG... your logic leads you to believe that we are all God!!!

Everything you see is God... so what's the harm of rolling in the mud... if it's all predestined to happen anyway.

Enjoy some of the fruits of all the trees from all the mud!
Dg west deptford Offline
#79 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
There's a time for cleansing & a time for mud
The what I believe doesn't matter
We both know what each other believes

You just don't know Who I believe yet

Predestination is a false flag you are attempting to hide behind.

Would it be so bad if God in His infinite wisdom predestined you to be provoked to begin to glimpse His Glory & Love for you at this very moment of your life?
bgz Offline
#80 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
But then my plight might to better understand the universe would be tainted, and the desire to do so would forever be drained, because I would find that answer to be boring.

So, so boring.

Please, if it's true... just let the lights turn out, an eternity is a really long f*cking time.
Dg west deptford Offline
#81 Posted:
Joined: 05-25-2019
Posts: 2,836
In His presence is fullness of joy and at His right hand there are pleasures forevermore

We agree that forevermore is long time.

Boring won't be the word for the experience of eternity away from any grace at all.

Mercy!

Peace to Ben & all my other predestined botls here.
bgz Offline
#82 Posted:
Joined: 07-29-2014
Posts: 13,023
Well, here's to hoping the experience of an eternity is to that of a photon!!!
Speyside2 Offline
#83 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
Interesting DG, you have gave me something to think about. Though I am apt to disagree with that this is the placing of a stumbling block.

Ran, the article you provided to me speaks of a hypothetical debate. Any doctor who will not treat some one unvaccinated for Covid19 should not be a doctor. They took an oath. Above and beyond that their refusal would be discriminatory.

I do think your talking points of smoking and refusing a drunk driver who caused an accident to be moot as I consider the denial of Healthcare to be wrong. Though if anyone says it is OK to deny unvaccinated Healthcare then they would be pertinent.
Speyside2 Offline
#84 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,304
I guess a legal expert would need to comment on discriminatory. Businesses have a right to set discriminatory rules as long as they apply then consistently. I think this should not apply to medical treatment, I hope SCOTUS would agree. Also I asked all of my doctors if they were considering not treating Covid19 unvaccinated people. Fortunately they said no, I would and will not use a doctor who would say yes.
Sunoverbeach Online
#85 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2017
Posts: 14,586
My uncle’s dying wish was to have me sitting on his lap. He was in the electric chair.
- RD
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